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Debate me about the bible

134 posts in this topic

First of all, I am a confused christian, and I am creating this thread to see if I can clear out some fog in my head. So lets start.

Claim: The bible is false in the sense that it was not written with the guidance of "god"

Reasons for my claim :
[list=1]
[*]Originally there was a lot of contradiction in the bible because it was written by humans
[list]These contradictions were refractor-ed by a humans, specifically some committee of who's name I can't recall[/list]
[list]If it wasn't for all of these refractor, more and more people will be aware of such contradiction and hence people will start to question and possible see the problems with the bible. Which could cause a tremendous loss in the business of selling bibles and spiritual objects[/list]

[*]There are things in the bible, still, that regular people find disturbing, such as the topic of homosexual, or parsing men more important than women.
[list]Really, if it was written by god's disciples, and were the words of god, then such discrimination shouldn't exist, because god is suppose to love everyone of every type.[/list]
[list]It also says that unless you follow him specifically, you will live eternity in hell? WTF!!! My family members are hindu, they are one of the best people that I know. My friend is not a believer in jesus, but possibly of a believer of there being a creator in general. He is one of the nicest and caring person that I know. Should he goto hell? For what? For some minuscule sins? So the bible is saying, I could kill thousands of people, and ask for forgiveness with all my heart and be truly sorry, and from there be the best person I can be, then I will goto heaven, but my friend who does nothing* wrong, tries to pleases people before him, will go to hell because he didn't believe in jesus in particular! Come on now, that does not sound like "god's words".[/list]

[*]There is no type of evidence that supports the bible and anything in the bible
[list]Most events declared in the bible are "fairy tale" like, and nothing supports their claims.[/list]
[list]Some events, were explained by science and thus was not a supernatural. It was an actual explainable event with some probability.[/list]

[*]In factual sense, the bible is no more true than the Quran( the religious text of Islam) . The reason why many people believe this book than others is because they were brought up by it. When they were little, they had no intelligence to rebuttal and question the content of the bible deductively. And thus the result is that they take it true for granted from day one. Honestly, imagine you were a christian brought up with parents who believes hinduism. You would most likely believe this hinduism, especially if you were never able to leave india( assuming thats where you were born) which in turn would cause you to never find christianity with a high probability, because of their strict culture.
[/list]

So in desperate help, I ask you to prove me false. I ask you to rebuttal each and everyone of these statements. My mind is going crazy these last few nights. The more I think about it rationally, the less I believe.

regards, D.Chhetri
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1. You're probably thinking of the first council of Nicaea. They sat down and argued about different interpretations and agreed upon some things that were disputed, e.g. the date of easter and the nature of the trinity ([i]is Jesus God or was he another prophet[/i]).

2. There's plenty of that in the old testament particularly. Like Moses telling his followers to go kill all the men, married women and children of their enemies, and take their enemies unmarried women as sex slaves... Yeah, that's no God I want to follow....
However, depending on which church you follow, this stuff might be interpreted differently.
Regarding Hell for non-christians, I've heard that
* We go to Hell (the eternal torment kind)
* We go to purgatory where we'll get another chance to learn the right path.
* We just die (the atheist's death) as hell is simply the destruction of the soul.
* We go to heaven as long as we followed our own vision of god and upheld Christian values.

As another example, in the Bhagavad Gita, the main character is a warrior who doesn't want to fight any more because he'll have to kill people he knows and respects.
In response to this, "God" basically just tells him to harden the fuck up and get on with the killing!! [b]However[/b], it's generally agreed that this entire story is a metaphor for the battle for ones own soul, not an actual battle between men.

Below are some quote quotes that your Hindu relatives could relay to ease your confusion. Religion should be about your own personal relationship with God, not about blindly following another's interpretation of scripture:[quote name='Gita 2:42, 2:52-53, 9:23']There are men who have no vision, and yet they speak many words. They follow the letter of the scriptures and they say "there is nothing but this".
When thy mind leaves behind its dark forest of delusion, thou shalt go beyond the scriptures of times past and still to come.
When thy mind, that may be wavering in the contradictions of many scriptures, shall rest unshaken in divine contemplation, then the goal of union with the divine is thine.
Even those who in faith worship other gods, because of their love they worship me.[/quote]
3. Things don't have to be true to have meaning. There's no imaginary numbers in the real world, but without believing in them, we wouldn't be able to build space shuttles.
If the fairy tales give people wisdom, then it doesn't matter whether they're true or not.

4. The "as long as we followed our own vision of god" interpretation resolves this... If you follow the "we go to hell" interpretation though, it's pretty messed up.
Use your heart, and not your ears, when trying to gather spiritual sustenance from scripture.
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I'm considered a Heretic in most Catholic dominated churches for my beliefs. People "New" to Christianity are often lied to that they need to read the Bible and follow the 10 Commandments. That's been droned into each and everyone for as long as the Catholic Church held power. Let me go over my views and then you decide whether or not I'm a heretic or critic.

The first thing is God is not a Bible, he inspired the Bible. Some versions of the Bible don't correctly translate, and we also got people that don't understand a thing about the Bible. YOU DON'T READ THE BIBLE UNLESS YOU FIRST HAVE A RELATIONSHIP AND FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD, Jesus, Holy Spirit. If you are confused stop there, you will never understand a relationship or fellowship with God by yourself. You need to just simply talk to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit like you do your best friend, favorite family member, and you need to love Him. People get this confused with that YOU need to love God for Him to love you. As a Christian you should always remember God loves you more, and gave the best of Heaven for you.

Now, thats cute right, here comes the heretical part. God found fault with His perfect law that He handed Moses, which is the 10 Commandments. He sent Jesus to fulfill those 10 Commandments so that when you get saved (Confess that you love Jesus, and that He is the son of God, and that there is no way YOU YOURSELF can get to earn Heaven by doing good deeds, and that there is no one else that can get you into Heaven. Now the law or 10 Commandments tell you that you need to keep all 10 inside your head (your thoughts), and outwardly (your body). You break even one Commandment you are guilty of breaking them all. The problem God saw with that is that only Jews could go to Heaven and the blood of lambs and goats needed to be shed every time someone sinned. Also, you could never get close to God, so Jesus and Him got together before creation and decided Jesus would die to provide a death or escape from the 10 Commandments and then ressurect to provide the new life so that Jesus could live inside your heart.

Now there is only 1 Gospel, its the Jesus Gospel. Grace, also known as Jesus, says you don't need to follow those 10 Commandments, but rather use each Commandment to see that you need more of Jesus. Now, the funny thing is this makes baptists mad, catholics, even most backwards preachers. Jesus ain't a book, God ain't a book, and you need to rather than sit there and read and pray like a drone, start letting Jesus and you have a relationship and fellowship. Yeah, you can read the Bible, but don't read the Bible if your not even hearing God's Voice. What is God's Voice? You'll know when you hear it, and only weak and ignorant people can't hear God's Voice. They think it comes from signs, or through a prophet, but it comes from the inside of you, sorta like the middle of your body. It's the most hard thing to do, is teach yourself to shut up and listen for God's Voice. It's not that God doesn't talk to you, but that He talks t oyou all the time and you just too used to ignoring Him.

You sir suffer from signs of False Christianity.

Now to answer your confusion, I first need you to understand that whoever "brought the Gospel to you" forgot to introduce you to the true aspect of it. You need to just let Jesus do everything through you, and provide for you. It's not God that needs to be served, but for Him to serve us so we can be a blessing for others.

1. Translation errors, and a lot of tongue in cheek. Some people need to go back to the ancient manuscripts and study for themselves. It's the only way to find out the correct translations of the Bible.

2.
A. God didn't create Adam and Steve, it was Adam and Eve. People think sexual attraction is genetic? LMAO, but if it was then you simply would not be able to like Baseball if you were genetically born to like Football. People learn to like things by thinking, yes thoughts count. Add emotional attachment and confusion to it and you get homosexuals.
B. Your friend can not earn a gift from God. Think your friend is greater than a Sin-less God, your friend can be nice as pie but he atleast broke 1 Commandment in his entire life, which makes him guilty of breaking all Commandments, and unless he never sinned, he ain't getting into Heaven.
C. Yup, God said that you can not be self-righteous or self right standing and expect to earn entrance into Heaven. Its about accepting and loving Jesus. You can find that out by talking with Jesus.

3.
A. Science and Religion go hand in hand. Good thing God is not religious and that Jesus is not a religion right?
B. They found Noah's Ark, The Ark of the Covenant, The parting place for the Red Sea, they found Mount Sinai where God gave the 10 Commandments, and they also found a lot of artifacts for ancient Jewish battles and communities. You need to do some research bro since your still a baby Christian.
C. You need to start talking with God and listening with your Spirit. You don't think thoughts and believe its God, honestly I think 99% of the newbs think that God is made up. Do your own research, once Jesus and you are cool and hanging some time together, you should be directed into what to read and what to watch. Lots of information to read, and it's not just Christian, you should be going over everything from atheism to Evolution to Muslim to even Buddha.

4. This entirely depends on how self prideful you are. I was never brought up by Bible, I came to it with huge skepticism. I questioned everything, and I did my own research. Finally when I found out God was talking to me the entire time, well things changed. The more "Rational" you think is the more you justify yourself that if you can't do it, it can't be done. I can clearly say that I'm actively smart. I spend around 7 hours of my free time in mathmatics, biology, literature, mythology, and many other stuff. If you think I'm closed minded, well then you're the one with your head jammed into your butt. I think that you should give a pause to your rational thinking (personal justification as it is also called) and go spend some time just honestly expecting Jesus to answer you and talk with you.

I can't tell you what to do, nor will I. I trust your smart enough to atleast attempt to try to talk with Jesus and not listen with your head or thoughts, the voice should be low at first and bubble from within your Inner Being. For me it bubbles up from around my inner chest, a small voice at first then it grows big.
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It's great to see that you are using critical thinking and reason to question your faith. I have one suggestion for you, look up Christopher Hitchens (YouTube is a good source with many great debates he participated in), you should enjoy his rational and analytical approach to religions.
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[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1306648564' post='4816999']
2.
A. God didn't create Adam and Steve, it was Adam and Eve. People think sexual attraction is genetic? LMAO, but if it was then you simply would not be able to like Baseball if you were genetically born to like Football. People learn to like things by thinking, yes thoughts count. Add emotional attachment and confusion to it and you get homosexuals.
[/quote]

A person's tastes are not within their conscious control. I'm sure there are some things that other people like that you [i]simply could never[/i] "learn to like," no matter how hard you tried. Can't think of any examples? You're not trying hard enough. I offer you this challenge: find someone who has completely different tastes in television than you do. Now, over the next two weeks, adapt your tastes to be exactly the same as this person. Learn to like [i]everything[/i] they do. Not just the same [i]shows[/i], like the same scenes that they do, be able to laugh at exactly the same jokes that they do, etc. Also, stop liking anything on TV that they don't like that you used to like. At the end of two weeks, after you have succeeded in this task, you can go back to your old viewing habits. Except, of course, you [i]won't want to[/i], because you need to have actually changed your [i]taste[/i] to match up with this other person's.

Here's another challenge for you: find me someone, anyone, who used to have sexual attraction to [i]exclusively [/i](or even primarily, I suppose), and is now [i]exclusively[/i] (or, again, even primarily) attracted to the opposite gender. There are some fairly reliable, scientific ways of measuring sexual arousal in response to images; I will accept the use of [i]any one of them[/i] as evidence, provided that this "ex-gay" person was tested sufficiently both before and after their "conversion." Here's a hint: [i]no such person exists.[/i] You can change who you have sex with, of course, but as for what [i]arouses [/i]you (i.e. what you're saying can be changed with "thought"), it's quite telling that there isn't a single example of this changing, in anyone, ever.
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[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1306655120' post='4817014']...[/quote]Here's another challenge: spend 4 forum pages trying to convince a homophobe that their irrational discrimination based on religious zeal is exactly that -- irrational discrimination -- only to find that after 4 pages they're still clinging to their ignorance.

No wait, don't do that. It'll only turn this thread into a typical religion thread instead of focusing on the OP...
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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306655486' post='4817015']
[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1306655120' post='4817014']...[/quote]Here's another challenge: spend 4 forum pages trying to convince a homophobe that their irrational discrimination based on religious zeal is exactly that -- irrational discrimination -- only to find that after 4 pages they're still clinging to their ignorance.

No wait, don't do that.
[/quote]

Hey, now, some homophobic people are still susceptible to rational argument; I [i]have[/i] seen people change their mind on the matter. There's a difference between a person's emotional reaction to homosexuality (which is difficult to change) and one's conscious view about the matter, which I've found is not necessarily a lost cause.
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What's a Bible thread doing on a game development forum? Debate that!
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[quote name='Prefect' timestamp='1306657395' post='4817019']...[/quote]Wow. Oh...kay... Sorry for standing in the projection of your pet peeve.

There's no numbers in the real world, but without believing in them we wouldn't be able to build space shuttles.

Better?
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A>A[quote name='D.Chhetri' timestamp='1306641237' post='4816980']
First of all, I am a confused christian, and I am creating this thread to see if I can clear out some fog in my head. So lets start.

Claim: The bible is false in the sense that it was not written with the guidance of "god"

Reasons for my claim :
[list=1][*]Originally there was a lot of contradiction in the bible because it was written by humans[list]These contradictions were refractor-ed by a humans, specifically some committee of who's name I can't recall[/list][/list]
[list]If it wasn't for all of these refractor, more and more people will be aware of such contradiction and hence people will start to question and possible see the problems with the bible. Which could cause a tremendous loss in the business of selling bibles and spiritual objects[/list]

There are things in the bible, still, that regular people find disturbing, such as the topic of homosexual, or parsing men more important than women.
[list]Really, if it was written by god's disciples, and were the words of god, then such discrimination shouldn't exist, because god is suppose to love everyone of every type.[/list]
[list]It also says that unless you follow him specifically, you will live eternity in hell? WTF!!! My family members are hindu, they are one of the best people that I know. My friend is not a believer in jesus, but possibly of a believer of there being a creator in general. He is one of the nicest and caring person that I know. Should he goto hell? For what? For some minuscule sins? So the bible is saying, I could kill thousands of people, and ask for forgiveness with all my heart and be truly sorry, and from there be the best person I can be, then I will goto heaven, but my friend who does nothing* wrong, tries to pleases people before him, will go to hell because he didn't believe in jesus in particular! Come on now, that does not sound like "god's words".[/list]

<li>There is no type of evidence that supports the bible and anything in the bible
[list]Most events declared in the bible are "fairy tale" like, and nothing supports their claims.[/list]
[list]Some events, were explained by science and thus was not a supernatural. It was an actual explainable event with some probability.[/list]

<li>In factual sense, the bible is no more true than the Quran( the religious text of Islam) . The reason why many people believe this book than others is because they were brought up by it. When they were little, they had no intelligence to rebuttal and question the content of the bible deductively. And thus the result is that they take it true for granted from day one. Honestly, imagine you were a christian brought up with parents who believes hinduism. You would most likely believe this hinduism, especially if you were never able to leave india( assuming thats where you were born) which in turn would cause you to never find christianity with a high probability, because of their strict culture.

So in desperate help, I ask you to prove me false. I ask you to rebuttal each and everyone of these statements. My mind is going crazy these last few nights. The more I think about it rationally, the less I believe.

regards, D.Chhetri
[/quote]

A christian is person who is able to enjoy life as it comes. Can you do that? CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE A PLACE IN HEAVEN. In addition wtih all you have already enoyed in earth,
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[quote]So in desperate help, I ask you to prove me false. I ask you to rebuttal each and everyone of these statements. My mind is going crazy these last few nights. The more I think about it rationally, the less I believe.[/quote]
Don't beat yourself up over it. The bible is a book of logical fallacies and contradictions. Trust testable, common sense above anything else.

Be good to yourself and others. Have empathy and understanding of those who are in need. Judge people by their character and treat them with the respect they deserve.

You don't need a medieval book to dictate you these principles. Stop worrying about it and concentrate on living a good, productive life. :)
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[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1306648564' post='4816999']3.
A. Science and Religion go hand in hand. Good thing God is not religious and that Jesus is not a religion right?
B. They found Noah's Ark, The Ark of the Covenant, The parting place for the Red Sea, they found Mount Sinai where God gave the 10 Commandments, and they also found a lot of artifacts for ancient Jewish battles and communities. You need to do some research bro since your still a baby Christian.
[/quote]Speaking of bogus and unsubstantiated evidence, they even found the bones of Jesus.
[url="http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007/02/26/jesus-tomb.html?ref=rss"]http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007/02/26/jesus-tomb.html?ref=rss[/url]

[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306666063' post='4817044']
A christian is person who is able to enjoy life as it comes.[/quote]A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306665058' post='4817040']
[quote name='Prefect' timestamp='1306657395' post='4817019']...[/quote]Wow. Oh...kay... Sorry for standing in the projection of your pet peeve.

There's no numbers in the real world, but without believing in them we wouldn't be able to build space shuttles.

Better?
[/quote]
That sounds better, yes :)
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Proof is antithetical to religious faith.

From my way of seeing this, you've got a few choices:
[list]
[*]Accept the contents of the bible is true on faith
[*]Accept the bible is flawed. Some stories might be allegories at best. Some elements of human error may be present. Use your judgement to determine which is divinely inspired and which parts are not.
[*]Require proof. Some of the greatest thinkers through the millennia have put their intellects into this, and no definitive "proof" has so far emerged.
[/list]
One thing to think about is why you are emotionally attached to the idea that the bible is true. If you were coming from a totally rational perspective, this would not be an issue.

As Hedos mentions, watching the debates involving individuals like Christopher Hitchens should get you thinking.
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[quote name='KidsLoveSatan' timestamp='1306672869' post='4817071']
[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1306648564' post='4816999']3.
A. Science and Religion go hand in hand. Good thing God is not religious and that Jesus is not a religion right?
B. They found Noah's Ark, The Ark of the Covenant, The parting place for the Red Sea, they found Mount Sinai where God gave the 10 Commandments, and they also found a lot of artifacts for ancient Jewish battles and communities. You need to do some research bro since your still a baby Christian.
[/quote]Speaking of bogus and unsubstantiated evidence, they even found the bones of Jesus.
[url="http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007/02/26/jesus-tomb.html?ref=rss"]http://www.cbc.ca/ne...mb.html?ref=rss[/url]
[/quote]

i have to detest that, they are lots of these claims, but none of them have been proven.
and what better name then that of a "guy"(as they call him) that raised poeple from the dead and heald sickness and cast out demons ?
besides, lots can be claimed but you can only see through such things if you have a relation ship with him.
once you know he truely exists you cannot say such and such has descovered his remains.

go ask your questions at [url="www.ihop.za.org/"]IHOP[/url].
and see what the response is
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[quote name='KidsLoveSatan' timestamp='1306672869' post='4817071']
[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306666063' post='4817044']
A christian is person who is able to enjoy life as it comes.[/quote]A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
[/quote]

You make it sound as if Jesus didn't enjoy his life.
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[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306688926' post='4817161']
[quote name='KidsLoveSatan' timestamp='1306672869' post='4817071']
[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306666063' post='4817044']
A christian is person who is able to enjoy life as it comes.[/quote]A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
[/quote]

You make it sound as if Jesus didn't enjoy his life.
[/quote]

Indeed, you'd think all that walking on water and creating wine must be pretty fun!
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[quote name='Lode' timestamp='1306689747' post='4817167']
[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306688926' post='4817161']
[quote name='KidsLoveSatan' timestamp='1306672869' post='4817071']
[quote name='owl' timestamp='1306666063' post='4817044']
A christian is person who is able to enjoy life as it comes.[/quote]A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
[/quote]

You make it sound as if Jesus didn't enjoy his life.
[/quote]

Indeed, you'd think all that walking on water and creating wine must be pretty fun!
[/quote]

You make it sound as if it wasn't!
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[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1306648564' post='4816999']
A. God didn't create Adam and Steve, it was Adam and Eve. People think sexual attraction is genetic? LMAO, but if it was then you simply would not be able to like Baseball if you were genetically born to like Football. People learn to like things by thinking, yes thoughts count. Add emotional attachment and confusion to it and you get homosexuals.
[/quote]

Do you even know what the word "genetically" means? I mean, you literally believe that God created two people, called Adam and Eve, and then these two produced all the rest? Who knows what kind of warped vision about genetics such a believe gives, but apparently for one it doesn't take in-breeding into account!

Don't mix science and religion please, and use what is logically seen and measured to update your religious view if needed (there'll always be some unanswered mysteries so there's always room for some religion if you want to)
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