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Debate me about the bible

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ddn3    1610
Concepts of The God, Gods, or physical embodiment of ideas like fate or love etc.. They go further back than any organized or written religion. They are more likely than not the attempts of an awaking intelligence to reconcile mushroom trips with reality. Imagine this your a neolithic hunter, your everyday reality is pretty understandable, you have animals, birds, occasional storm, your family group, etc.. But every once in a while you eat a bad mushroom and see ghoulish things like bugs crawling out of peoples eyes or see ecstatic things like a sunrise which never ends in the breadth of a child, etc.. How would you explain that? Would you just brush it off? You can't deny what you just saw and heard. There is no science to explain this yet, no priest to tell you what it meant, they haven't been invented yet.. Theres gotta be something more to reality than animals, birds, occasional storm, your family group, etc.. Thus The God, Gods, physical embodiment of love and fate, etc.. you make a little fetish to remind you of the "spirits", in time they grew up into Gods.. Now humans are arguing about the color of Gods skin or whether God is a vegetarian..

I wouldn't worry about it, the God/Gods/Fate/Love they are timeless, immortal, they will always exist, it is we who are their dreams.


-ddn


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frob    44908
[quote name='OneThreeThreeSeven' timestamp='1306773367' post='4817563']
There is no god...especially not a blond hair blue eyes jesus. Europe simply twisted ancient Egyptian stories and lore and changed it into the bible. Google "ancient egypt and the bible parallels".
[/quote]
[quote name='ddn3' timestamp='1306784093' post='4817626']
Concepts of The God, Gods, or physical embodiment of ideas like fate or love etc.. They go further back than any organized or written religion. They are more likely than not the attempts of an awaking intelligence to reconcile mushroom trips with reality.
[/quote]

Many people believe that way.

If that is what YOU personally believe, and you are okay with that, then that's fine.


From what I've experienced of the world, there is no way I could believe that. I don't have a concept of a "blond hair blue eyes jesus", and I've never had "mushroom trips" or other psychedelic or drugged experiences.

The Wiki says 96% to 98% of the world believe in a higher power of some form, which is a very high number for something to be easily dismissed as "attempts of an awaking intelligence to reconcile mushroom trips with reality." In a world of 7 billion, that still leaves about two hundred million people who share your belief, so you have plenty of company. I believe such a longstanding global mass delusion of the rest of the nearly 7 billion people is unlikely, but if you want to believe that, it is your freedom to do so.

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Roots    1625
[quote name='frob' timestamp='1306787647' post='4817649']
The Wiki says 96% to 98% of the world believe in a higher power of some form
[/quote]

Citation needed. What is "The Wiki"? Wikipedia? I did a quick search and couldn't find any pages that cited that statistic. One site that I know of that shows a religious distribution (including those that are non-religious) is adherents.com:
[url="http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html"]http://www.adherents..._Adherents.html[/url]

That estimates the non-religious population of the world at around 16% (8% which are non-believers), which I think is much more accurate estimate. America is a fairly religious country, but there are many more countries that have a significantly higher portion of non-believers. Japan, Scandinavia, and many western European countries.

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Khaiy    2148
Does it matter what percentage of the world believes in some faith or another? A large membership doesn't make a group objectively right or wrong. And a lot of the people within the believers have views that will contradict a lot of other people's-- at least some of them are incorrect, deluded or otherwise.

The validity of any given belief system, or of religious belief in general, is unlikely to be tied to how popular those beliefs are.

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Roots    1625
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306791541' post='4817670']
Does it matter what percentage of the world believes in some faith or another? A large membership doesn't make a group objectively right or wrong. And a lot of the people within the believers have views that will contradict a lot of other people's-- at least some of them are incorrect, deluded or otherwise.

The validity of any given belief system, or of religious belief in general, is unlikely to be tied to how popular those beliefs are.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you. No, the number of adherents to a particular belief or non-belief do not matter and have no effect on the validity or truth of the belief system. I just don't like it when people start throwing out numbers and statistics without citing their sources.

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DarklyDreaming    367
The humble reasoning of one man can topple the belief of an entire world. Faith is a personal decision which should take place beyond convenience or laziness, doing anything less is just a way to make things easy - which is fine...if that is what you want from your life.

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ChaosEngine    5185
[quote name='frob' timestamp='1306787647' post='4817649']

The Wiki says 96% to 98% of the world believe in a higher power of some form, which is a very high number for something to be easily dismissed as "attempts of an awaking intelligence to reconcile mushroom trips with reality." In a world of 7 billion, that still leaves about two hundred million people who share your belief, so you have plenty of company.
[/quote]

I call bullshit on that. Given that [url="http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/CN/people.html"]the worlds most populous country is predominantly atheistic[/url], I'd say the percentage of people is a bit lower than that.

Besides, the majority of people once believed the sun orbited the earth.

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ChaosEngine    5185
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
[quote]
... [b]Last time was in [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8&feature=player_embedded"]this video[/url] where the subject compares us to pots of clay questioning the motives of the potter.[/b]
[/quote]

I never said that we were pots of clay, or inanimate or any such thing, so we can let that go.
[/quote]

For the record, I never claimed you said that. I said (as emphasised above) that I had seen someone else claim that as an extension of the "we're so far below god as to not understand it".

[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
I'll agree that the abilities to question and reason are important; in fact, I think that those are the very things that make us human, and are the proper behaviors of mankind (I'm non-religious, by the way). But the idea that the exercise of free will is necessarily good because our ability to reason is inherently good I don't agree with.
Some people reason badly, and so they do in fact exercise their free will based on faulty judgement. The ability to reason in no way dictates or even suggests that your reasoning will be good or correct.
[/quote]

Don't confuse the outcome with the ability. Being able to drive is useful. Driving badly can kill someone but it doesn't make driving itself bad.

[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
And explain stuff to your kids all you want.
[/quote]

lol, actually I don't have kids.
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
I agree that that's an important thing to do for a lot of reasons. But you don't sit a toddler down and explain the dangers of drowning to him or her. You keep the kid away from the water, or you supervise them pretty minutely to keep them safe. You don't trust a toddler's free will to combine with their reasoning abilities to equal safety.

[/quote]

Agreed, but you do explain it to them at some point, once they have acquired rudimentary reasoning skills.

[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
But the gap between children and adults is not very similar to that between god and anything else. "Because I say so" is a cop out for a parent, even if the child fails to understand the reasons for actions regardless of effort. But the rules for the omnipotent creator of the universe are going to be a bit different than for me talking to my kid.
[/quote]

Given what we've been able to reason and determine about our universe, we have at least shown that we are capable of learning and understanding. If god is out there, he owes us an explanation.

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szecs    2990
[quote name='DarklyDreaming' timestamp='1306798765' post='4817700']
The humble reasoning of one man can topple the belief of an entire world. Faith is a personal decision which should take place beyond convenience or laziness, doing anything less is just a way to make things easy - which is fine...if that is what you want from your life.
[/quote]
[s]
What? You mean not having "faith" (whatever that means) makes you lazy and makes things easy?

[/s]Oh, sorry, I have comprehended your post now. And I agree :D[s]
[/s]

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1306807400' post='4817728']
For the record, I never claimed you said that. I said (as emphasised above) that I had seen someone else claim that as an extension of the "we're so far below god as to not understand it".[/quote]

Fair enough. I just wanted to be clear that I'm not responsible for defending someone else's stupid extension of a valid concept.

[quote]
Don't confuse the outcome with the ability. Being able to drive is useful. Driving badly can kill someone but it doesn't make driving itself bad.
[/quote]

I'm not. You said "Otherwise, we are basing our free will on faulty judgement". We do, because it is demonstrably true that people often reason badly. As I said (and on re-reading it, it does not seem clear that this is my position in the original post), I agree that questioning and reasoning are incredibly important human traits. But if your aim is to produce a useful conclusion about the nature of god or god's actions, which is the case in trying to assess the accuracy, validity, or purpose of a religious text, practice, or any given event, then you have to bite the harms of imperfect judgement and necessarily limited information.

As I said in a later post, you can and should reason all the time, as much as possible. But, and this is particularly true of religion, you cannot reasonably expect to reach a complete and objectively correct conclusion. This does not devalue the capacity to reason at all, but it does have large implications for the practice of a religion (i.e. you cannot determine with certainty what god wants of you, or the purpose behind some divinely driven event).

So for someone to say, "the Bible is the direct and perfect word of God, and I totally understand it, and the correct thing to do for purely theistic reasons is X" is a statement which ought to be beyond anyone who can, in fact, reason. You either accept all of the preconditions which preclude using your reasoning power, or you accept that you could be badly wrong about every point of it, regardless of how strongly you feel about your conclusion.

[quote]
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1306730909' post='4817378']
And explain stuff to your kids all you want.
[/quote]

lol, actually I don't have kids.
[/quote]

Haha, me either. I was speaking generally.

[quote]
Agreed, but you do explain it to them at some point, once they have acquired rudimentary reasoning skills.
[/quote]

But only once their reasoning skills are sufficient to grasp the situation. If your kid can reason (If I cry, my pushover parent will give me cookies and juice, so I'll cry a lot), that doesn't necessarily mean that they can grasp things like drowning or death. You should still try to explain of course, but rudimentary may not be enough. This would be magnified dramatically between a deity and some guy. If it would take 500 years of reflection to reason your way to true thing Y, that's something that no human can do. And even if someone did do the requisite reflection, they might still be wrong-- and there's no objective way to analyze it. If humans pool their thoughts through generations, you can overcome the time limitation, but you introduce more people whom a reasoner must trust implicitly to make any additional progress, and any of [i]them[/i] could be wrong as well.

[quote]
Given what we've been able to reason and determine about our universe, we have at least shown that we are capable of learning and understanding. If god is out there, he owes us an explanation.
[/quote]

Perhaps. I'm certainly in the camp of preferring to be guided by someone who knows than having to muddle my way through everything. But if god exists, it would be unreasonable to place constraints on him based in our own preferences, experiences, ideas, and hyper-limited knowledge. We may think that this is correct (and again, I'm with you in that my reasoning brings me to the same conclusion). But that does not mean that we are correct in any meaningful way (despite reasoning our way there); not any moreso than a five year old who thinks that because cookies and juice taste good and reduce hunger that they should be eaten exclusively.

There's too much relevant information that we don't have about the universe, and especially about abstract concepts like ethics and philosophy, for us to adopt such certitude.

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frob    44908
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1306806348' post='4817722']
[quote name='frob' timestamp='1306787647' post='4817649']
The Wiki says 96% to 98% of the world believe in a higher power of some form, which is a very high number for something to be easily dismissed as "attempts of an awaking intelligence to reconcile mushroom trips with reality." In a world of 7 billion, that still leaves about two hundred million people who share your belief, so you have plenty of company.
[/quote]

I call bullshit on that. Given that [url="http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/CN/people.html"]the worlds most populous country is predominantly atheistic[/url], I'd say the percentage of people is a bit lower than that.
[/quote]

This was my reference for it: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism"]Demographics of Atheism[/url] with quite a few global studies citing 2.4% to 3.8% as atheist, and 12%-18% nonreligious/agnostic.

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Roots    1625
Thank you for providing your source. :) I looked at the reference that statistic led to and lo' and behold, we are citing the same material. :lol: I read the study a bit more carefully this time and there's actually quite a bit of interesting info on the "non-religious" portion if you dive into the details. Specifically, the number of people who answer "atheist" changes slightly depending upon how you ask them. I would wager that a lot of people label themselves as agnostic or non-religious simply because the term carries less baggage, as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Nonreligious


While I'm on the topic, I'd like to point out a common misconception between the strict definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic". Most people (including myself until a few years ago) believe that an atheist is one that asserts that there are no gods and an agnostic is one who states that they do not know whether or not there is a god, seen as a "weaker" form of atheism almost. This isn't true, because theism,which deals with belief, and gnosticism, which deals with knowledge, are mutually exclusive terms. You can be both atheist and agnostic, which is in fact what I am. I don't believe there are any gods, but I don't know that there are no gods. I used to refer to myself as an agnostic, despite that I have never believed in any gods at any point in my life, because I viewed the term atheist in the way that is commonly misunderstood. Today, I describe myself as atheist, because it more accurately represents who I am.


So there are four possible combinations when dealing with gnosticism and theism:

[list][*]An [b]agnostic atheist[/b] is one who does not believe in any gods, but does not claim to know that there are no gods.[*]A [b]gnostic atheist[/b] is one who does not believe in any gods, and claims to know that there are in fact no gods.[*]An [b]agnostic theist[/b] is one who believes in a god or gods, but does not claim to know that these gods definitely exist.[*]A [b]gnostic theist[/b] is one who believes in a god or gods, and claims to know that these gods in fact do exist.[/list]

So if someone asks you "Do you believe that there is a god/are gods?" and your answer is anything other than "Yes.", then you are an atheist. Whether or not you choose to use that label to describe your religious views is a personal preference. And this concludes my public service announcement. :P

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']
as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.
[/quote]

Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?

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Hodgman    51234
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306898296' post='4818141'][quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.[/quote]Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?[/quote]Stanists like the character Satan... seems pretty straightforward to me -- isn't it the same as Christians who like the character Christ?

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306899314' post='4818144']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306898296' post='4818141'][quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.[/quote]Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?[/quote]Stanists like the character Satan... seems pretty straightforward to me -- isn't it the same as Christians who like the character Christ?
[/quote]

That's not what all satanists believe in though. The majority of satanists don't even believe in a deity, but that humans should embrace their more animalistic desires.

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Amaz1ng    131
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306941063' post='4818295']
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306899314' post='4818144']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306898296' post='4818141'][quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.[/quote]Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?[/quote]Stanists like the character Satan... seems pretty straightforward to me -- isn't it the same as Christians who like the character Christ?
[/quote]

That's not what all satanists believe in though. The majority of satanists don't even believe in a deity, but that humans should embrace their more animalistic desires.
[/quote]

Religion was originally about expression of unknown phenomena or human nature. When it rained, people had no idea WHY water would fall from the sky. When it thundered, people had no idea WHY that sound was made so they created stories about Gods and Goddesses to explain it all.

Only the uneducated or mentally ill took the stories as literal. So my point is that the satanism you describe is nothing unusual - it's much closer to actual religion than fundamentalist Christianity for example.

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inavat    317
To the OP:

You sound like a reasonably smart guy who's rationally thinking about your belief system and having a crisis because one worldview (rationality) is colliding with another worldview (Christianity).

My advice is to stop letting your "mind go crazy". The more you think about it rationally, the less you believe. This is normal, and the reason for it is that Christianity is not a rational belief system. I'm imposing no judgment on it, it's simply the case, and many Christians will admit to it ("I don't need proof, I have faith", which is tantamount to accepting that one is willfully choosing the irrational). If your logic and rationality tells you that something does not merit belief, and if you understand that logic and rationality aren't a choice but are simply the way the universe and everything in it works, then you will drive yourself crazy if you try to force yourself to believe it.

It doesn't sound like you believe, so if you stop desperately trying to hold onto something which has no basis then you will find alleviation of that burden.

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inavat    317
[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']
While I'm on the topic, I'd like to point out a common misconception between the strict definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic". Most people (including myself until a few years ago) believe that an atheist is one that asserts that there are no gods and an agnostic is one who states that they do not know whether or not there is a god, seen as a "weaker" form of atheism almost. This isn't true, because theism,which deals with belief, and gnosticism, which deals with knowledge, are mutually exclusive terms. You can be both atheist and agnostic, which is in fact what I am. I don't believe there are any gods, but I don't know that there are no gods. I used to refer to myself as an agnostic, despite that I have never believed in any gods at any point in my life, because I viewed the term atheist in the way that is commonly misunderstood. Today, I describe myself as atheist, because it more accurately represents who I am.


So there are four possible combinations when dealing with gnosticism and theism:

[list][*]An [b]agnostic atheist[/b] is one who does not believe in any gods, but does not claim to know that there are no gods.[*]A [b]gnostic atheist[/b] is one who does not believe in any gods, and claims to know that there are in fact no gods.[*]An [b]agnostic theist[/b] is one who believes in a god or gods, but does not claim to know that these gods definitely exist.[*]A [b]gnostic theist[/b] is one who believes in a god or gods, and claims to know that these gods in fact do exist.[/list][/quote]

Thank you!! I have grown so tired of trying to explain this to people that I no longer even try, it's good to see someone else understand the distinction. People rail against the term "atheist" because they think every atheist conforms to what you here have called [b]Gnostic Atheism[/b] and which is also called Positive Atheism, Strong Atheism, and Hard Atheism, and that's simply not the case. I don't have hard facts, but I figure most atheists would consider themselves agnostic (if they in fact understood the strict meaning of the term).

Anyway, cheers for spreading the word!

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='Amaz1ng' timestamp='1306942862' post='4818305']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306941063' post='4818295']
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306899314' post='4818144']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306898296' post='4818141'][quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.[/quote]Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?[/quote]Stanists like the character Satan... seems pretty straightforward to me -- isn't it the same as Christians who like the character Christ?
[/quote]

That's not what all satanists believe in though. The majority of satanists don't even believe in a deity, but that humans should embrace their more animalistic desires.
[/quote]
Only the uneducated or mentally ill took the stories as literal. So my point is that the satanism you describe is nothing unusual - it's much closer to actual religion than fundamentalist Christianity for example.
[/quote]
That's not the point I was making o.O

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HappyCoder    5052
I would first like to say that I don't athests are bad people. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints more commonly known as Mormons. I have known many good people from other faiths such as the Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, as well as Athiests. I also know that my ubringing has given me a moral foundation that will help me througout my life.

I enjoy science. I like to study it and learn from it. As I study it I don't see the need to have to pick either God or science. I don't see why I have to choose only one. I make my religion my main foundation and any knowledge that science has to offer. My knowledge of God did not come from reading a science textbook. It came through reading the scriptures and asking if it is true. ([url="http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng"]Moroni 10:3-5[/url])

The belief of athiesm is nothing new. Not believing in Christ has been part of societies long before his coming. ([url="http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/30?lang=eng"]Alma 30:12-16[/url]) To the Greeks the preaching was foolishness. "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" 1 Cor:22-23. A knowledge of the truth comes to a sincere seeker with a humble heart. You my ridicule me for my beliefs. Science will contitue to progress and there will be those who will try to tell me that our knowledge disproves God. I believe that "even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." (Alma 30:44) I look around and see that there is too much order for it to be by chance. The order in the galaxies. The order in the solar system. The order in life. The order in life's basic building blocks such as protiens and DNA. The order in atoms and molecules. This is not proof to me that God lives. What is the foundation of my testimony is a witness through the Holy Ghost. ([url="http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng"]Moroni 10:3-5[/url]) Anybody who wants to know the truth needs to read the scriptures, ponder of them, then ask with a sincere heart if it is true. If done with faith the Holy Ghost will releal the truth of this directly to our minds. That is why I beleive.

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Hodgman    51234
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306947817' post='4818331']
[quote name='Amaz1ng' timestamp='1306942862' post='4818305']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306941063' post='4818295']
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1306899314' post='4818144']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1306898296' post='4818141'][quote name='Roots' timestamp='1306872755' post='4818003']as many believers instinctively associative "atheist" with satanist and are prejudiced to think all sorts of horrible things about us.[/quote]Side point, but does anyone else think it's weird that a religion would name itself after the anti-diety of another religion and most branches of the it ask not to be associated with that deity?[/quote]Stanists like the character Satan... seems pretty straightforward to me -- isn't it the same as Christians who like the character Christ?
[/quote]

That's not what all satanists believe in though. The majority of satanists don't even believe in a deity, but that humans should embrace their more animalistic desires.
[/quote]
Only the uneducated or mentally ill took the stories as literal. So my point is that the satanism you describe is nothing unusual - it's much closer to actual religion than fundamentalist Christianity for example.
[/quote]
That's not the point I was making o.O
[/quote]
That's not the point I was making o.O

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Machaira    1033
[quote name='HappyCoder' timestamp='1306950761' post='4818365']
Anybody who wants to know the truth needs to read the scriptures, ponder of them, then ask with a sincere heart if it is true. If done with faith the Holy Ghost will releal the truth of this directly to our minds. That is why I beleive.
[/quote]
What happens though when contradictory answers are received by different people? How do you determine which is true?

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Machaira    1033
[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1306655120' post='4817014']
Here's a hint: [i]no such person exists.[/i]

...

it's quite telling that there isn't a single example of this changing, in anyone, ever.
[/quote]
The second sentence does not mean the first is true. Unless you've become omniscient I think you meant "there has been no evidence of such a person".

You're welcome. [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]

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cowsarenotevil    3005
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1307038969' post='4818786']
[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1306655120' post='4817014']
Here's a hint: [i]no such person exists.[/i]

...

it's quite telling that there isn't a single example of this changing, in anyone, ever.
[/quote]
The second sentence does not mean the first is true. Unless you've become omniscient I think you meant "there has been no evidence of such a person".

You're welcome. [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

It is, of course, impossible to prove non-existence. However, when I assert that, for instance, "dragons do not exist" the vast majority of people will know that I really mean "there is no reason to believe that dragons do exist" rather than "I am omniscient." But then, since you apparently knew that already, I'm not sure why there is any confusion.

Also note that, as written, the second sentence [i]does[/i] imply the first one. I said "there [i]isn't[/i] a single example" rather than "I have not [i]observed/seen evidence of[/i] a single example." Obviously, the latter is what I meant, but you apparently knew that already too.

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Hodgman    51234
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1307038415' post='4818783']
[quote name='HappyCoder' timestamp='1306950761' post='4818365']
Anybody who wants to know the truth needs to read the scriptures, ponder of them, then ask with a sincere heart if it is true. If done with faith the Holy Ghost will releal the truth of this directly to our minds. That is why I beleive.[/quote]What happens though when contradictory answers are received by different people? [b]How do you determine which is true?[/b][/quote]You have to un-ask that question. The question is based on the assumption that truth is something that exists external to yourself. If you instead assume that truth is internal, then the question makes no sense.

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