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Concentrate

Debate me about the bible

134 posts in this topic

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1307627601' post='4821310']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1307526113' post='4820854']
Eh? where does it say anything about that in the bible? Christianity has nothing to do with "handling this life", it has to do with accepting christ as a saviour.

End of.
[/quote]

I have always been perplexed by this...it's the debate about what saves, "faith" or "works", and yes most christians seem to answer "Faith" because, presumably, no amount of "good deeds" can save you. Which I do not understand. Jesus spend his minister teaching people how to behave in everyday situations, towards other people. That was basically it. The reason I believe jesus is saviour is because he gave us a "roadmap", so to speak, both with teaching and his example, on how to live a spiritual life, which will be the thing that "saves" us. Otherwise, if you don't do the work, what substance does this "faith" has? Is it merely proclaiming "Christ is saviour"? Those are just empty words. I guess I view things a bit differently, when Jesus says, for example, "noone can get to the kingdom of God except through me" I hear "me" as in "following my footsteps and do as I teach". Other christians apparently view it as in, you can't get into heaven if you're not Christian, which, again, if you look into it, what does it mean to "be Christian"? Be part of an official church? Proclaim that "Jesus is Lord"? Praying on your own? As far as I'm concerned, it's about doing the work that Jesus demanded of people. But I digress...
[/quote]

Pretty much the same as I think about Jesus.
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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1307627726' post='4821311']
[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1307627601' post='4821310']
I have always been perplexed by this...it's the debate about what saves, "faith" or "works", and yes most christians seem to answer "Faith" because, presumably, no amount of "good deeds" can save you. Which I do not understand. Jesus spend his minister teaching people how to behave in everyday situations, towards other people. That was basically it. The reason I believe jesus is saviour is because he gave us a "roadmap", so to speak, both with teaching and his example, on how to live a spiritual life, which will be the thing that "saves" us. Otherwise, if you don't do the work, what substance does this "faith" has? Is it merely proclaiming "Christ is saviour"? Those are just empty words. I guess I view things a bit differently, when Jesus says, for example, "noone can get to the kingdom of God except through me" I hear "me" as in "following my footsteps and do as I teach". Other christians apparently view it as in, you can't get into heaven if you're not Christian, which, again, if you look into it, what does it mean to "be Christian"? Be part of an official church? Proclaim that "Jesus is Lord"? Praying on your own? As far as I'm concerned, it's about doing the work that Jesus demanded of people. But I digress...
[/quote]

Pretty much the same as I think about Jesus.
[/quote]

It is said that Jesus started "teaching" very late in his life (at the age of 28-30~. He died at 33 and resurrected 3 days later). Before that he lived a perfectly normal life as carpenter to sustain his mother. Which again backs up the notion of having some experience in life before approaching people to speak about religion.

My prior post was a drunk post so it was fairly incomplete (yes I'm not perfect). Any good deed a christian makes must be preceded by God. And God should be above all things in a christian's life. That's to say, above all your passions, in such a way that when the time comes you'll willing to "hate" them in order to embrace God's will or in other words: making God's will your passion. That and faith are gifts, and are veiled by mystery (otherwise it'd be a career and not a religion) which means that we cannot really see nor understand God's will by our own.

To me the whole point of Christianity is to remove ourselves from the place of "gods/emperors of our lives" to let God drive our acts. That doesn't mean to stop making decisions, it just means to be open to the possibility of changing them, to recognize ourselves as imperfect, tending most of the time towards the "things of the flesh" and in need of help from someone who is really much better than us.


[quote]
Mark 10:17-31

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
[/quote]

It doesn't matter how hard we think we try, there is always something we cannot do by ourselves. That what we cannot do by ourselves, if not lend to God, is what condemn us to great sadness, in this life and in the other.
[color=#5C1101][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][color=#000000]

[/color][/size][/font][/color]
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[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1307398834' post='4820274']
[quote][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]She is to be as submissive as he is to her. Again, the bible is clear on this.

[indent][sup]22[/sup] Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [sup]23[/sup] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. [sup]24[/sup] Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. [sup]25[/sup] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her [sup]26[/sup] to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, [sup]27[/sup] and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. [sup]28[/sup] In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [sup]29[/sup] After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— [sup]30[/sup] for we are members of his body. [sup]31[/sup]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.[sup]32[/sup] This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. [sup]33[/sup] However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.[/indent]

Ephesians 5:22-33[/size][/color][/quote]

What are you talking about? That clearly says that [b]SHE [/b]is to submit to [b]HIM[/b]. Never does it say that [b]HE [/b]should submit to [b]HER[/b]. It says he should love her as himself, that's all very nice. But where does it say he is to submit to her? You are reading that because [b]that is what you want to believe it says[/b].

Allow me to quote from Peter 3.
[quote][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][sup]1[/sup] Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,[sup]2[/sup] when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. [sup]3[/sup] Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. [sup]4[/sup] Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. [sup]5[/sup] For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, [sup]6[/sup] like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"] [sup]7[/sup] Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.[/size][/font][/quote]


So you still claim that she is to be as submissive to him as he is to her? Don't pick and choose, don't be a hypocrite. Don't change the meaning to match what you view as convenient. Have some backbone and stand up for what you believe, which is the Bible. If it's God's word, it's God's word. Would you pick and choose which parts of a sermon from Jesus' mouth you wanted to believe in? That's essentially what you're doing. It's so easy to say "The Bible is clear on this" and put out a piece of scripture that doesn't even remotely say what you're trying to force it to say.[/quote]
Well actually I took that to mean, "Women. Don't go trying to be this second, separate entity work as a unit with your husband. Doing things together, as your hands would pick up a pot together. Men. Don't think because your woman follows your lead that you can treat her any which way. You treat her as you would treat yourself. Love her as you would love yourself. Do not take from her and give to yourself, as that would be, in fact, taking from yourself as well." IOW, the woman submits to the man and agrees to be one unit. In doing so, the man makes her an equal putting her on the same level as himself. They perform their roles as husband and wife, man and woman, but she is not his underling and he is not the unapproachable, unfallible overlord either.

Again, that's my take from it. From both verses that are quotes.
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You guys are so eager to twist things so they fit into your worldview.

Face it, it was a very sexist time when these words were written. More sexist than today.

It says pretty clearly that women should [b]obey[/b] their husbands. No where in the bible does it say that husbands should [b]obey[/b] their wives.

I grant you, it orders men to be nice to their women, that's better than nothing. But there's clearly a difference in status.

[quote][color=#1C2837][size=2]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[/size][/color][/quote]

Are you saying that Christ and his church are equals? Surely nothing is equal to the Lord. Well it's equating men to the Lord and women to his underlings, the church.

Please, for the love of god, stop twisting the words. Accept them as somewhat sexist. I welcome your desire to disagree with the words and have a more feminist viewpoint, but have the integrity to stand up and say "I disagree with this part of the Bible" instead of pretending it says what you want it to say.

Do you even know you're doing it, or is it involuntary?
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To follow up:


1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Timothy 2:12 and Ephesians 5:22ff:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (KJV)
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. (ASV)
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (TNIV)

Can you still claim the New Testament isn't sexist?
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[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1307635332' post='4821364']
To follow up:


1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Timothy 2:12 and Ephesians 5:22ff:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (KJV)
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. (ASV)
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (TNIV)

Can you still claim the New Testament isn't sexist?
[/quote]
This same passage was already posted like 2 pages ago and you cut out the second half of it talking about the man's duties to the wife.
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[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1307634698' post='4821357']
You guys are so eager to twist things so they fit into your worldview.

Face it, it was a very sexist time when these words were written. More sexist than today.

It says pretty clearly that women should [b]obey[/b] their husbands. No where in the bible does it say that husbands should [b]obey[/b] their wives.[/quote]
Nowhere in either passage does it say husbands shouldn't listen to their wives and treat them as maids either.

[quote]I grant you, it orders men to be nice to their women, that's better than nothing. But there's clearly a difference in status.[/quote]
Yes, I've never said there wasn't a different. I noted the gender and marriage roles.

[quote][quote][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[/size][/color][/quote]

Are you saying that Christ and his church are equals? Surely nothing is equal to the Lord. Well it's equating men to the Lord and women to his underlings, the church.[/quote]
It is providing an analogy to one of the aspects of the relationship. Let me add that though the Israelites were not equal with God. He did still listen to their pleas and provided them: freedom, their own land, a King, a Savior, and redemption.

[quote]Please, for the love of god, stop twisting the words. Accept them as somewhat sexist. I welcome your desire to disagree with the words and have a more feminist viewpoint, but have the integrity to stand up and say "I disagree with this part of the Bible" instead of pretending it says what you want it to say.

Do you even know you're doing it, or is it involuntary?
[/quote]
Ok, you disagree with my take on the passages. Nothing I can do about that, but agree to disagree. In any case, I read those passages with the knowledge that they were written in a time much different than ours. A lot of what they say still holds true to today. Hell, the US of A still today is sexist. With or without a Bible. Men still do the fighting. And women still expect a man to protect, care, and provide for her and the family. Granted it's to various degrees nowadays. For the record, yeah, I may be a little sexist too.
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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1307640434' post='4821392']
This same passage was already posted like 2 pages ago and you cut out the second half of it talking about the man's duties to the wife.
[/quote]

Sure, the husband has duties to the wife. But the husband is [b]the head[/b]. [b]The boss[/b]. [b]In charge[/b]. If there is a disagreement between man and woman, the bible says the [b]woman should obey[/b].

Why are you being so disingenuous? It's not like you're going to trick anyone into believing the New Testament isn't sexist. Everyone can all see your charade, and yet you keep at it.

Alpha_ProgDes, cheers for having the courage and integrity to admit it's sexist. And cheers for having the courage and integrity to admit that you, too, are sexist. I don't mean that sarcastically.

You seem to believe that a wife should obey a husband as the head of the family, and you admit the Bible supports it. I see no hypocrisy there.

way2lazy2care, however, seems to be a lost cause. He chooses to misinterpret the Bible to fit his worldview.

This is the difference between religion and science. If you misinterpret facts in science, you're labeled a bad scientist. If you purposefully misinterpret facts in religion, however, you have a good chance of becoming a multimillionaire preacher.
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[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1307641842' post='4821402']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1307640434' post='4821392']
This same passage was already posted like 2 pages ago and you cut out the second half of it talking about the man's duties to the wife.
[/quote]

Sure, the husband has duties to the wife. But the husband is [b]the head[/b]. [b]The boss[/b]. [b]In charge[/b]. If there is a disagreement between man and woman, the bible says the [b]woman should obey[/b].[/quote]
This is my issue with your argument. Yes, the man has the last word. That doesn't mean that the woman's words aren't taken into consideration or ignored outright. He takes the lead ultimately. True. But the dynamic is not black and white and woman getting pwned all the time just for being a woman. She does have a voice, sway, and power in the relationship. I guess I'm not liking the fallacious implication(s) your posts have been exuding.
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[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1307646562' post='4821439']
This is my issue with your argument. Yes, the man has the last word. That doesn't mean that the woman's words aren't taken into consideration or ignored outright. He takes the lead ultimately. True. But the dynamic is not black and white and woman getting pwned all the time just for being a woman. She does have a voice, sway, and power in the relationship. I guess I'm not liking the fallacious implication(s) your posts have been exuding.
[/quote]
Show me one "fallacious implication." All I ever implied is that the New Testament is sexist by asserting that men should be the head of the family and that women should be subordinate. I never said that the Bible says women are never to be taken into consideration or ignored outright. I certainly never said the woman gets "pwned all the time." You imagined that.
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