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forsandifs

The United States Prison Industrial Complex.

78 posts in this topic

[quote name='ddn3' timestamp='1307157289' post='4819292']
Incarceration reduces crime? Maybe but the causes of crime are not affected by incarceration.. poverty, drugs, gangs, illegal activity, high risk taking, etc.. some kid grows up in the hood, joins a gang, does a few robberies, sure he know's he could go to jail but is that gonna stop him? Nah.. that's the last thing from his mind..His whole world is his status in the gang. When you grow up having nothing, enduring misery after misery, the threat of prison is no threat at all..

Now incarceration will stop some blue collar worker from say robing a store. Because he has too much to lose, his freedom, money he could earn, family, etc...But he wouldn't do that either way , most people follow the rules.. But only to an extent, if people feel wronged enough they will act, like in the case of infidelity etc..

Then there is the case of drug addicts, they are so hopelessly addicted, incarceration is also no threat to them. The immediate need for the fix is far stronger than any future threat of incarceration. After the fix they might have regret / remorse but usually their crimes are impulsive.

How about the career criminal, one who was raised with in a culture of crime, would threat of incarceration stop them? Nah, they like the gang member exist within an isolated world, where criminal activity is rewarded and encouraged.. Organized crime families, financial fraud rackets, smugglers, rebel insurgents, etc.. I doubt fear of going to jail is going to stop them (the money/cause is to good), however it will definitely make them more vigilant. Look at Enron, how many of them ended up in jail? 1? and they stole over 5 billion dollars.. If you asked them the fear of going to jail would stop them, i doubt very much they would care, the rewards too high.

I would argue incarceration doesn't reduce crime much at all, it's just a punishment which we've come up with which is acceptably humane. In the past they would just chop off an arm or something (you could also pay a large fine) but we've moved beyond that and the only real punishment acceptable is incarceration. It's definitely not preventive overall, its mostly punitive imo.

-ddn
[/quote]

I respect what you're saying, but what is the alternative. Provide a cost-reasonable, safe, effective, alternative to what we are doing today that doesn't endanger our demote the quality of life for law-abiding citizens. I haven't seen any reasonable solutions so far that would work on a large scale.
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[quote name='ChurchSkiz' timestamp='1306874330' post='4818013']
[quote name='d000hg' timestamp='1306869479' post='4817985']
[quote name='ChurchSkiz' timestamp='1306852471' post='4817883']
If you don't want to go to prison, don't break the law. What a concept...
[/quote]A program about Miami jails in the UK recently made the point that those giant jails are exclusively for those awaiting sentence, i.e. not guilty... they can be in maximum security violent facilities for years while still legally innocent.

How's that for a concept.
[/quote]

That's a different discussion. If people that are awaiting trial are stuck in prison for years then that is a major issue.

Also, awaiting sentencing is not the same as not guilty. Awaiting sentencing means you are a convicted criminal but your sentence hasn't been decided yet. Maximum security could be appropriate depending on the crime. If you're in maximum security you probably won't get out for time already served at sentencing so I can't see this would be a problem in all but the rarest of cases.
[/quote]
Sorry I meant they are awaiting trial. They have not yet been convicted.
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[quote name='d000hg' timestamp='1307204120' post='4819449']
Sorry I meant they are awaiting trial. They have not yet been convicted.
[/quote]

I don't think that's correct. Most trials are within the first month if the criminal doesn't ask for it to be pushed back, and if they take too long then the charges will be thrown out. In wisconsin, for example, the trial has to begin within 90 days for felonies unless the defense petitions for a later date.
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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1307206804' post='4819468']
[quote name='d000hg' timestamp='1307204120' post='4819449']
Sorry I meant they are awaiting trial. They have not yet been convicted.
[/quote]

I don't think that's correct. Most trials are within the first month if the criminal doesn't ask for it to be pushed back, and if they take too long then the charges will be thrown out. In wisconsin, for example, the trial has to begin within 90 days for felonies unless the defense petitions for a later date.
[/quote]Well the documentary made it pretty clear the entire jail was full of unconvicted people awaiting trial. It also claimed that the term 'jail' is specifically for un-convicted prisoners and 'prison' is for convicts... that part I'm not sure about because obviously everyone uses both interchangeably.

This is about the program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Theroux:_Miami_Mega_Jail [quote]Theroux spends time in "Main Jail" (PTDC), one of the most notorious sections of the Miami jail system,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Theroux:_Miami_Mega_Jail#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup] including time on the fifth and sixth floors of the PTDC, where many of the most volatile inmates are incarcerated. [b]Being held for pre-trial, the inmates are to be considered innocent until proven guilty[/b]. [/quote]
In fact the jail is even called the [b]Pre-trial detention center[/b]. http://www.miamidade.gov/corrections/pre_trial_detention.asp
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[quote name='d000hg' timestamp='1307207321' post='4819473']
This is about the program: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Theroux:_Miami_Mega_Jail"]http://en.wikipedia....Miami_Mega_Jail[/url] [quote]Theroux spends time in "Main Jail" (PTDC), one of the most notorious sections of the Miami jail system,[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Theroux:_Miami_Mega_Jail#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup] including time on the fifth and sixth floors of the PTDC, where many of the most volatile inmates are incarcerated. [b]Being held for pre-trial, the inmates are to be considered innocent until proven guilty[/b]. [/quote]
In fact the jail is even called the [b]Pre-trial detention center[/b]. [url="http://www.miamidade.gov/corrections/pre_trial_detention.asp"]http://www.miamidade...l_detention.asp[/url]
[/quote]

There is a large difference between saying, "[color=#1C2837][size=2] those giant jails are exclusively for those awaiting sentence, i.e. not guilty... they can be in maximum security violent facilities for years while still legally innocent," and "one large jail in the city with one of florida's highest crime rates holds people exclusively for pre-trial." There's 30,000 felonies in the city every year. It makes sense that they would need a complex just for people awaiting or in the middle of trial.[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color="#1c2837"][size=2]Even so Florida's speedy trial laws only extend to 175 days (longer than most states), which is hardly close enough to considered most inmates being held for pre-trial for years.[/size][/color]
[color="#1c2837"][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color="#1c2837"][size=2]And being innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that you should be considered safe or not a flight risk. There is a good reason people are held for pre-trial and why we have bail in the system. [/size][/color]
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The documentary found many people who had been there for several years. Of course I'm taking their word for it, but I can't see it would have got through with such blatant errors.
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