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juicypuffin

3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

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Hi, I'm completely new to everything (video game making and this site), but I wanted to make a MMORPG in 3D where you can move via keys instead of the mouse. I've been looking around for programs for newbies that might be able to do what I want, but they all seem to be for click-and-move single-player games, shooter games, or 2D games. Since I'm so new to everything, I'd want any scripting/programming to be in a language easy for beginners to learn.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307477553' post='4820667']
Hi, I'm completely new to everything (video game making and this site), but I wanted to make a MMORPG in 3D where you can move via keys instead of the mouse. I've been looking around for programs for newbies that might be able to do what I want, but they all seem to be for click-and-move single-player games, shooter games, or 2D games. Since I'm so new to everything, I'd want any scripting/programming to be in a language easy for beginners to learn.
[/quote]

I dont really think there will be anything of this scale for "newbies", once you start to break into anything MMORPG its going down a very very long road.

Are you actually interested in the Massive part of MMO?
If not you could look into using some engines like the UDK (Unreal development kit), but it will take a lot of work to make that into a RPG.

You could check for source forge but I couldn't find anything that fit your criteria with the searching I did, but good luck!

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Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]

MMORPGs are probably the most difficult, the most expensive and the largest games to build and maintain, creating one would take a lot of experience, knowledge and funds, and would be as good as impossible to do on your own

If you are serious about wanting to create a game, then start small and simple, learn how to program and learn all the basic concepts, then when you have your years of experience you can try to tackle that MMORPG project

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[quote name='Radikalizm' timestamp='1307488014' post='4820723']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]

MMORPGs are probably the most difficult, the most expensive and the largest games to build and maintain, creating one would take a lot of experience, knowledge and funds, and would be as good as impossible to do on your own

If you are serious about wanting to create a game, then start small and simple, learn how to program and learn all the basic concepts, then when you have your years of experience you can try to tackle that MMORPG project
[/quote]

I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create experience, I would rather put all my effort into this and gain experience while still (slowly) progressing on my game project.

I don't need the "general advice for people who don't understand how much work a game project would take", but thank you anyway.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307488361' post='4820725']I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create "experience". What use is getting to know one program, one programming language, and one target audience amount when the actual game you want to make is entirely different in all aspects?

If you're not going to post anything helpful, and instead just post something discouraging that you probably post to all beginners, then please ignore that urge and not say it instead.
[/quote]

I am not saying it to discourage you, I'm saying it to give you an idea of what to expect when you are new to game development

Saying "I have no experience at all in game development, but I want to make a full-blown 3D MMORPG" is like saying "I've never constructed anything in my life, but I want to build a skyscraper"
A lot of game concepts which exist in simple games also apply to more complex games, and mastering these concepts is essential, so simple games are a perfect way of learning
You will need a very good grasp on general programming, and you'll need to master the language you're going to write the game with to manage a project of such proportions

Nobody can stop your from attempting to write this thing, but you can be sure that this project will end in frustration

I'm not going to say any more, it's up to you to decide if you want to follow this advice or not


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[quote name='Radikalizm' timestamp='1307489031' post='4820730']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307488361' post='4820725']I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create "experience". What use is getting to know one program, one programming language, and one target audience amount when the actual game you want to make is entirely different in all aspects?

If you're not going to post anything helpful, and instead just post something discouraging that you probably post to all beginners, then please ignore that urge and not say it instead.
[/quote]

I am not saying it to discourage you, I'm saying it to give you an idea of what to expect when you are new to game development

Saying "I have no experience at all in game development, but I want to make a full-blown 3D MMORPG" is like saying "I've never constructed anything in my life, but I want to build a skyscraper"
A lot of game concepts which exist in simple games also apply to more complex games, and mastering these concepts is essential, so simple games are a perfect way of learning
You will need a very good grasp on general programming, and you'll need to master the language you're going to write the game with to manage a project of such proportions

Nobody can stop your from attempting to write this thing, but you can be sure that this project will end in frustration

I'm not going to say any more, it's up to you to decide if you want to follow this advice or not
[/quote]

As you can see, I changed my reply shortly after posting it, I'm not sure if that edit showed up to you or not but I had worded some things badly and edited it after some thought.

Believe me, there's no need for comparisons, I know very well how big a project it is. I'd be exactly the same way if what I wanted was to build a skyscraper, I'd rather start learning the most related things to that and start making my first simple blueprints for it than to start by building five sheds in my backyard. It might not sound like what you would do, but that's just how I work.

How can anyone be sure how any project will emotionally end? You don't know what makes me frustrated or not, nor do you know how the work is going to go. I'm not saying everything's going to go smoothly, but despite what you think you're being negative instead of realistic.

[quote name='Storyyeller' timestamp='1307490711' post='4820739']
Here are some threads you may find of interest.

[url="http://www.devmaster.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13272"]http://www.devmaster...ead.php?t=13272[/url]
[url="http://www.devmaster.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11656"]http://www.devmaster...ead.php?t=11656[/url]
[/quote]
Thanks! I'll make sure to read the ones linked too.

EDIT: Actually, I don't need anything like this. I already know all the details of my gameworld, storyline, team jobs, advertising, et cetera. I just have to know the technical aspects of it so I can actually create a game instead of sitting around thinking about creating one.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307488361' post='4820725']
[quote name='Radikalizm' timestamp='1307488014' post='4820723']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]

MMORPGs are probably the most difficult, the most expensive and the largest games to build and maintain, creating one would take a lot of experience, knowledge and funds, and would be as good as impossible to do on your own

If you are serious about wanting to create a game, then start small and simple, learn how to program and learn all the basic concepts, then when you have your years of experience you can try to tackle that MMORPG project
[/quote]

I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create experience, I would rather put all my effort into this and gain experience while still (slowly) progressing on my game project.

I don't need the "general advice for people who don't understand how much work a game project would take", but thank you anyway.
[/quote]

If you're looking for shortcuts you don't have that much to choose from
Hero Engine is probably the best option out there, its license costs are quite high though unless you go with the HeroCloud service ($0 starting fee but then it costs 30% of your revenue in royalties) (Hero Engine is used for Biowares upcoming Starwars MMO so its definitly capable of delivering).

An easier but far more restrictive and less scalable (unless you go with the professional edition that is currently in beta it doesn't scale at all and won't support a massive number of players) would be Realmcrafter.

If neither of those is good enough then you're pretty much forced to make your own. (This is hard enough if you go the easy route realmcrafter did and do your scaling through zones and instances, more flexible solutions would require a fairly solid understanding of distributed simulations and is not something i'd recommend you attempt as a beginner)

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Okay, to possibly make this more simple:

3D (Can the program work with 3D? Yes.)
MMORPG (I mean this as in "can the game be made to handle having that many people playing it at once? Yes.")
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg )
Learning programming isn't a problem, however I would want the programming language to be easier to use if possible. I don't want to be using Assembly to script the game. For example, the scripting you can use for Eclipse ( http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/eclipse/ ) is easy to understand.

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[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1307493379' post='4820749']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307488361' post='4820725']
[quote name='Radikalizm' timestamp='1307488014' post='4820723']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]

MMORPGs are probably the most difficult, the most expensive and the largest games to build and maintain, creating one would take a lot of experience, knowledge and funds, and would be as good as impossible to do on your own

If you are serious about wanting to create a game, then start small and simple, learn how to program and learn all the basic concepts, then when you have your years of experience you can try to tackle that MMORPG project
[/quote]

I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create experience, I would rather put all my effort into this and gain experience while still (slowly) progressing on my game project.

I don't need the "general advice for people who don't understand how much work a game project would take", but thank you anyway.
[/quote]

If you're looking for shortcuts you don't have that much to choose from
Hero Engine is probably the best option out there, its license costs are quite high though unless you go with the HeroCloud service ($0 starting fee but then it costs 30% of your revenue in royalties) (Hero Engine is used for Biowares upcoming Starwars MMO so its definitly capable of delivering).

An easier but far more restrictive and less scalable (unless you go with the professional edition that is currently in beta it doesn't scale at all and won't support a massive number of players) would be Realmcrafter.

If neither of those is good enough then you're pretty much forced to make your own. (This is hard enough if you go the easy route realmcrafter did and do your scaling through zones and instances, more flexible solutions would require a fairly solid understanding of distributed simulations and is not something i'd recommend you attempt as a beginner)
[/quote]

Thank you, this is a much more helpful answer.

We can ignore license costs at this point, I'm just interested in which would be most suitable for the type of game I want to make. I'll be looking into these.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]
Take it in steps.

Make an empty world.
Then, add the player.
Then, add something to do.
Then, add another player.
Then, make the second player controlled by another computer.
Then, add more stuff to do.
Then add more players.
Then, add more stuff to do.

Concentrate on one thing at a time and slowly work towards your goal. One step at a time. Even the best developers start with a small core, and slowly build out the features they need. If you're new, don't bother trying to design for the end goal up front. You'll never anticipate all the hundreds of little details you need to take into account. Even experienced developers would miss most of them if they tried to point them all out up front.

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[b]3D MMOG Solution Big World Tech[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b][url="http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/index.php"]http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/index.php[/url][/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]$399 a year for indie binary and can upgrade to indie source or commercial[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]What you can do with the engine?[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[url="http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/faq.php"]http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/faq.php[/url]

[b]Recommendations for the engine?[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]I recommend you take advantage over the python scripting process as quests, items, some combat functions, and other useful stuff is coded into python scripts. At the limit of 10,000 registered accounts that can concurrent access the server, you can charge a simple $5 or $10 fee for account access per month or one time fee. Depending on how innovative you are, you can get higher returns to pay for the Big Worlds Commercial which starts off at $300k with licensing royalty fees. It's very fast prototyping and you can buy multiple licenses for the same license level.[/b]

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[quote name='Slavik81' timestamp='1307494320' post='4820754']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307481882' post='4820696']
Yes, I am interested in the "Massive" portion. If the game gets very popular, which I hope it would, I still want it to be stable and everything. I want it to be designed for "massive" amounts of people from the start.

If not on a scale for complete newbies, then the easiest to use program would be nice.
[/quote]
Take it in steps.

Make an empty world.
Then, add the player.
Then, add something to do.
Then, add another player.
Then, make the second player controlled by another computer.
Then, add more stuff to do.
Then add more players.
Then, add more stuff to do.

Concentrate on one thing at a time and slowly work towards your goal. One step at a time. Even the best developers start with a small core, and slowly build out the features they need. If you're new, don't bother trying to design for the end goal up front. You'll never anticipate all the hundreds of little details you need to take into account. Even experienced developers would miss most of them if they tried to point them all out up front.
[/quote]

Thank you, that's also more relevant to what I'm thinking. If I have to build most of the game on my own (as opposed to using an engine where many of the things I need are already supported and ready to use), that is how I would go about doing it: so I could work on my real project in small steps, rather than making unrelated smaller projects to gain experience, as was suggested before.


[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1307494746' post='4820757']
[b]3D MMOG Solution Big World Tech[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b][url="http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/index.php"]http://indie.bigworl...index/index.php[/url][/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]$399 a year for indie binary and can upgrade to indie source or commercial[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]What you can do with the engine?[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[url="http://indie.bigworldtech.com/index/faq.php"]http://indie.bigworl...m/index/faq.php[/url]

[b]Recommendations for the engine?[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]I recommend you take advantage over the python scripting process as quests, items, some combat functions, and other useful stuff is coded into python scripts. At the limit of 10,000 registered accounts that can concurrent access the server, you can charge a simple $5 or $10 fee for account access per month or one time fee. Depending on how innovative you are, you can get higher returns to pay for the Big Worlds Commercial which starts off at $300k with licensing royalty fees. It's very fast prototyping and you can buy multiple licenses for the same license level.[/b]
[/quote]

Thanks, I'll look at it.

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I think anyone can make a game. Use the right tools, do a lot of the stuff yourself, and wham you got a game. If you can maximize your time scale on a smaller game project, then I'd say at least play with the idea for MMOG. As for confidence in you, I'm 90% sure you got the right motivation to take on something this big. Now do it in stages.

Buy a MMOG solution, either Hero or Big World and run with it. It's noob friendly as you will get without coding your own frameworks for the game blindly. Big World has games already made with it by bigger studios. As with Hero you only got SWTOR (Star Wars The Old Republic) and their community to go by. I'd say go with either one, I can't tell you to go for one or the other as you will subconsciously want to switch anyway.

For a simple art pipeline you got Hero Engine, for easier prototyping you got Big World. I think that if you know how to bump, spec, model, and then color at a good level for 3D Models, you can pull off amazing artwork on both engines. Personally, I want you to succeed in this project, in this area. Where others can only offer you good luck and or please read this, I offer you simply this. Go for it, be passionate about it, and choose one that you can work on, and don't let you're mind wander. Good luck, and remember to use Google for your research.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307493790' post='4820750']
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: [url="http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg"]http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg[/url] )
[/quote]

From my experience something like that isn't actually all that basic, and getting something from scratch or even with a engine is going to take a lot of knowledge and time.

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[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1307512399' post='4820808']
MMOs are going to be well beyond your skill level for a long time to come. Even small-scale multiplayer games are damn hard, and they're [i]nothing[/i] compared to a truly "massive" online game. And that doesn't get into content creation issues, either - that's just speaking from a programming perspective.

The reason you can't find any tools for newbies to make MMOs is because newbies are not going to be able to cope with the realities of building an MMO. I know you've already said you don't want to start small, but at the very least, start on a small game in terms of player count, and be happy with maybe 20 players concurrently. I conservatively estimate that it would take you about 15 years of full-time study and practice to reach a level where you could program an MMO with limited outside help. I'm not just exaggerating a made-up number to discourage you, either - I'm speaking from real experience. That's about what it took me, and others I know who have comparable skill sets.

Finally, you should read this and seriously consider its advice.
[/quote]

Multiple tools for newbies have been posted here, so there are some. I knew before I even had the idea to make a game that it would take years to do. Frankly I'm disappointed that the "advice" I seem to be getting here is mostly "give up, you'll never be able to do it, only huge companies can do it" when I'm not even asking for opinions on if it's possible or not to make one. I'm not saying I plan to make a MMORPG from scratch, coding everything myself, and that I'll instantly have a huge hit and be able to handle all the server details that would require. I'm saying I want to try making one and am looking for the options available to me at this point.

[quote name='RedPin' timestamp='1307513687' post='4820815']
I think anyone can make a game. Use the right tools, do a lot of the stuff yourself, and wham you got a game. If you can maximize your time scale on a smaller game project, then I'd say at least play with the idea for MMOG. As for confidence in you, I'm 90% sure you got the right motivation to take on something this big. Now do it in stages.

Buy a MMOG solution, either Hero or Big World and run with it. It's noob friendly as you will get without coding your own frameworks for the game blindly. Big World has games already made with it by bigger studios. As with Hero you only got SWTOR (Star Wars The Old Republic) and their community to go by. I'd say go with either one, I can't tell you to go for one or the other as you will subconsciously want to switch anyway.

For a simple art pipeline you got Hero Engine, for easier prototyping you got Big World. I think that if you know how to bump, spec, model, and then color at a good level for 3D Models, you can pull off amazing artwork on both engines. Personally, I want you to succeed in this project, in this area. Where others can only offer you good luck and or please read this, I offer you simply this. Go for it, be passionate about it, and choose one that you can work on, and don't let you're mind wander. Good luck, and remember to use Google for your research.
[/quote]

I'm glad you're able to offer encouragement. I don't think the graphics/art is going to be the biggest problem considering how many different 3D programs are out there. It shouldn't be impossible to get the hang of one of them. Thanks.

[quote name='yewbie' timestamp='1307542823' post='4820933']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307493790' post='4820750']
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: [url="http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg"]http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg[/url] )
[/quote]

From my experience something like that isn't actually all that basic, and getting something from scratch or even with a engine is going to take a lot of knowledge and time.
[/quote]

What are basic graphics, then? Considering the amount of RPG games and even console games that have this level of graphics, I thought it would be considered basic (as there's much better quality available these days). I'm prepared for that it's going to take time and effort either way.

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307493790' post='4820750']
Okay, to possibly make this more simple:

3D (Can the program work with 3D? Yes.)
MMORPG (I mean this as in "can the game be made to handle having that many people playing it at once? Yes.")
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: [url="http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg"]http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg[/url] )
Learning programming isn't a problem, however I would want the programming language to be easier to use if possible. I don't want to be using Assembly to script the game. For example, the scripting you can use for Eclipse ( [url="http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/eclipse/"]http://www.touchofde...ms.com/eclipse/[/url] ) is easy to understand.
[/quote]
Far cry from simple graphics if you have no experience.

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I'm really confused. Can someone please tell me where in juicypuffin's original post it says "please discourage or encourage me heavily, also please thumb down all my replies for being honest about my goals"? (That last part makes me want to punch you guys in the face. Yes, anger management, I know.)
He was not asking for advice on life, the universe, or everything, but the specific thing "how could I go about starting to work on making a MMORPG, preferably with newbie-friendly tools?".
It's his problem if this stuff ends in frustration and tears and bloodshed, or if it ends as yet another unfinished n00b project, a mildly successful game, or a smash hit. If he wants to spend the next 20 years on something that you deem hopeless, that's also his problem.
Do you realize all your favourite game developers, and yourself, were all newbies with dreams at some point? Do you realize some people followed those dreams, and that was the reason they in the end became successful, even if it also was completely exhausting? (Of course, other people just gave up along the way and went to make a sandwich instead, or make an easier project to start with, etc etc.)

I have studied some game development, know bits of programming, and have made many small games just to gain experience myself. Mainly I'm an artist and trying to start figuring out 3D meshing though.

I'm an aquaintance of juicypuffin's and was not planning on joining this forum, because I think people on forums are usually so unhelpful there isn't any point in it. HMM, I sure wonder what to think now! (ETA: Of course I don't mean all of you were unhelpful, you certainly were not. But you know what I was pointing to.)

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[quote name='XXChester' timestamp='1307558500' post='4821015']
[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307493790' post='4820750']
Okay, to possibly make this more simple:

3D (Can the program work with 3D? Yes.)
MMORPG (I mean this as in "can the game be made to handle having that many people playing it at once? Yes.")
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: [url="http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg"]http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg[/url] )
Learning programming isn't a problem, however I would want the programming language to be easier to use if possible. I don't want to be using Assembly to script the game. For example, the scripting you can use for Eclipse ( [url="http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/eclipse/"]http://www.touchofde...ms.com/eclipse/[/url] ) is easy to understand.
[/quote]
Far cry from simple graphics if you have no experience.
[/quote]

Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?

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[quote name='fyrkant' timestamp='1307558890' post='4821018']
I'm really confused. Can someone please tell me where in juicypuffin's original post it says "please discourage or encourage me heavily, also please thumb down all my replies for being honest about my goals"? (That last part makes me want to punch you guys in the face. Yes, anger management, I know.)
[/quote]

Though I agree it is not nice to be discouraging, a lot of people underestimate the amount of work in any half decent MMO.

While it might be discouraging to tell them flat out that it's not a realistic goal, it would be just as mean not to warn them. I would liken it to someone coming up to you saying, "do you have any advice on what would be the best way to jump over this little 5 foot gap?" and you saying, "Dude... that's the grand canyon. You'll die."

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307557206' post='4821010']
[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1307512399' post='4820808']
MMOs are going to be well beyond your skill level for a long time to come. Even small-scale multiplayer games are damn hard, and they're [i]nothing[/i] compared to a truly "massive" online game. And that doesn't get into content creation issues, either - that's just speaking from a programming perspective.

The reason you can't find any tools for newbies to make MMOs is because newbies are not going to be able to cope with the realities of building an MMO. I know you've already said you don't want to start small, but at the very least, start on a small game in terms of player count, and be happy with maybe 20 players concurrently. I conservatively estimate that it would take you about 15 years of full-time study and practice to reach a level where you could program an MMO with limited outside help. I'm not just exaggerating a made-up number to discourage you, either - I'm speaking from real experience. That's about what it took me, and others I know who have comparable skill sets.

Finally, you should read this and seriously consider its advice.
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Multiple tools for newbies have been posted here, so there are some. I knew before I even had the idea to make a game that it would take years to do. Frankly I'm disappointed that the "advice" I seem to be getting here is mostly "give up, you'll never be able to do it, only huge companies can do it" when I'm not even asking for opinions on if it's possible or not to make one. I'm not saying I plan to make a MMORPG from scratch, coding everything myself, and that I'll instantly have a huge hit and be able to handle all the server details that would require. I'm saying I want to try making one and am looking for the options available to me at this point.
[/quote]

Have you considered that such advice is probably the truth? So what you're saying is you want an MMO game without having to worry about the servers? You have to understand, making the client, while not a trivial task in itself, doesn't scale to the difficulty of making a server. I read that article ApochPiQ posted, and by the sound of it, you really need to know your stuff to making one of those. Now, if you're looking to just make a 3D game without actually getting too much detail into program, then that is definitely possible. But MMO? No. Not alone. Not with five people. Not with ten people. You need a lot of skilled programmers to even get things going. It would be the equivalent of trying to write a big portion of Wikipedia in a language that you do not know. Impossible? Nothing is impossible. Probable? About as much as winning the lottery.

Either way, it will take you a while. If you want to create a 3D, then the forum can probably aid you in that. Unity and UDK engines are widely suggest for these kinds of games.

Believe it or not, we don't all want to sound discouraging, but it will take you a little more than a few years to achieve that kind of goal with such a limited team.

We tell you to make smaller games for a little more than just experience. When you complete a project successfully, you start to have better approximations of how long projects will take you to finish, and you'll get a boost of courage for having accomplished something with success. When you work on something for years without end and you end up with obscure bugs and you have no idea why the abstractions are leaking, only frustration awaits you and you'll soon realize you don't actually know how to find the answer to your problems. I make it seem a lot more gloomy than it actually is, personally I love myself a good challenge (despite saying I hate it and that it should be killed immediately with fire), but some things are just too big to handle man. You can have as many tools as you can imagine, but a professional with a hammer and saw will still create a better house, if you manage to create one at all. (I hate myself for being a realist sometimes)

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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1307560955' post='4821033']
Though I agree it is not nice to be discouraging, a lot of people underestimate the amount of work in any half decent MMO.

While it might be discouraging to tell them flat out that it's not a realistic goal, it would be just as mean not to warn them. I would liken it to someone coming up to you saying, "do you have any advice on what would be the best way to jump over this little 5 foot gap?" and you saying, "Dude... that's the grand canyon. You'll die."
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Yes, but why assume that someone doesn't understand the amount of work it takes? Of course, there are tons of people who don't understand it, just as there are tons of people who absolutely do understand it, and don't need to be told this over and over again without asking for it, while trying to explain that they in fact do know it already. I imagine people will blame this on their previous experience with n00bs, but that's a lame excuse, guys. Think for a bit before you assume every newbie is badly informed and ignorant. If you feel the need, just ASK - "Do you understand how much work this would take, and that it might end in tears?"
If they reply "Yes, I think I do", then leave it to them and try to actually help out technically instead.

It doesn't matter if it's discouraging or not, what matters is that they were not asking for help to decide whether it's a "realistic" goal or not. If they were, that'd be different and everyone could be just as discouraging, encouraging, or whatever as they want. Your comparison isn't relevant either, for the same reason. It would have been: "Yes, I know it's the grand canyon. It's going to be difficult. So, how do I best go about doing it?"

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[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307559260' post='4821022']
Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?
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Just having the art assets is not enough to make it easy, I still deal mostly in 2d, but I have read a lot on 3d so take my advice with a grain of salt here:

First it really depends on what engine you choose, and what tools they offer. Some engines may have a world editor that's as easy and importing a 3d model of your world, others leave getting your 3d world mesh(es) into the engine completely up to you.

Secondly, Dealing with animation, camera, 3d math,UI, its all pretty difficult to work with for people with experience, someone just learning its going to be a nightmare.

Third, One of the biggest problems I would foresee would be planning, its very hard to completely plan your project without intimate knowledge of the engine and its limitations beforehand so everything works together nicely.

I really hope you can find a all inclusive engine/package that has really good content tools as well as a really good scripting language that would probably be exactly what your looking for.

I am really not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can prove everyone wrong and complete something like this, but speaking from personal experience I went down this road when I first got into hobbyist game development and while I gained some very valuable knowledge and experience with clients and servers I feel that had I worked on some easier to obtain goals I would not only be farther along in my game development, but I think I would have been more fun for me.

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