[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307493790' post='4820750']
Okay, to possibly make this more simple:

3D (Can the program work with 3D? Yes.)
MMORPG (I mean this as in "can the game be made to handle having that many people playing it at once? Yes.")
Basic graphics (unless something like this isn't basic: http://i56.tinypic.com/2zi7vio.jpg )
Learning programming isn't a problem, however I would want the programming language to be easier to use if possible. I don't want to be using Assembly to script the game. For example, the scripting you can use for Eclipse ( http://www.touchofde...ms.com/eclipse/ ) is easy to understand.

Far cry from simple graphics if you have no experience.
[/quote]

Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?

I'm really confused. Can someone please tell me where in juicypuffin's original post it says "please discourage or encourage me heavily, also please thumb down all my replies for being honest about my goals"? (That last part makes me want to punch you guys in the face. Yes, anger management, I know.)

Though I agree it is not nice to be discouraging, a lot of people underestimate the amount of work in any half decent MMO.

While it might be discouraging to tell them flat out that it's not a realistic goal, it would be just as mean not to warn them. I would liken it to someone coming up to you saying, "do you have any advice on what would be the best way to jump over this little 5 foot gap?" and you saying, "Dude... that's the grand canyon. You'll die."

Though I agree it is not nice to be discouraging, a lot of people underestimate the amount of work in any half decent MMO.

While it might be discouraging to tell them flat out that it's not a realistic goal, it would be just as mean not to warn them. I would liken it to someone coming up to you saying, "do you have any advice on what would be the best way to jump over this little 5 foot gap?" and you saying, "Dude... that's the grand canyon. You'll die."

Yes, but why assume that someone doesn't understand the amount of work it takes? Of course, there are tons of people who don't understand it, just as there are tons of people who absolutely do understand it, and don't need to be told this over and over again without asking for it, while trying to explain that they in fact do know it already. I imagine people will blame this on their previous experience with n00bs, but that's a lame excuse, guys. Think for a bit before you assume every newbie is badly informed and ignorant. If you feel the need, just ASK - "Do you understand how much work this would take, and that it might end in tears?"
If they reply "Yes, I think I do", then leave it to them and try to actually help out technically instead.

It doesn't matter if it's discouraging or not, what matters is that they were not asking for help to decide whether it's a "realistic" goal or not. If they were, that'd be different and everyone could be just as discouraging, encouraging, or whatever as they want. Your comparison isn't relevant either, for the same reason. It would have been: "Yes, I know it's the grand canyon. It's going to be difficult. So, how do I best go about doing it?"

Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?

Just having the art assets is not enough to make it easy, I still deal mostly in 2d, but I have read a lot on 3d so take my advice with a grain of salt here:

First it really depends on what engine you choose, and what tools they offer. Some engines may have a world editor that's as easy and importing a 3d model of your world, others leave getting your 3d world mesh(es) into the engine completely up to you.

Secondly, Dealing with animation, camera, 3d math,UI, its all pretty difficult to work with for people with experience, someone just learning its going to be a nightmare.

Third, One of the biggest problems I would foresee would be planning, its very hard to completely plan your project without intimate knowledge of the engine and its limitations beforehand so everything works together nicely.

I really hope you can find a all inclusive engine/package that has really good content tools as well as a really good scripting language that would probably be exactly what your looking for.

I am really not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can prove everyone wrong and complete something like this, but speaking from personal experience I went down this road when I first got into hobbyist game development and while I gained some very valuable knowledge and experience with clients and servers I feel that had I worked on some easier to obtain goals I would not only be farther along in my game development, but I think I would have been more fun for me.

You guys, please understand that the point isn't "please don't discourage me, that's mean and too realistic for my taste!" but actually that nobody was asking for advice on figuring out how much of a nightmare this is going to be.

You guys, please understand that the point isn't "please don't discourage me, that's mean and too realistic for my taste!" but actually that nobody was asking for advice on figuring out how much of a nightmare this is going to be.

I think the conversation went down that road due there not being a boxed solution like the OP asked for.

Nobody here wants to discourage anyone, far from it, I would think. There was plenty of solid advice given, and the comments made by the OP which got downvoted were because he didn't seem to take the advice in stride. It's fantastic to have lofty goals when you start out, as long as you realize that for as long as you're inexperienced, they'll remain lofty. Starting small and working your way up is an approach that many people on this forum have and will continue to recommend, and they don't mean to be offensive with it - just helpful and honest.

[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307557206' post='4821010']
[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1307512399' post='4820808']
MMOs are going to be well beyond your skill level for a long time to come. Even small-scale multiplayer games are damn hard, and they're nothing compared to a truly "massive" online game. And that doesn't get into content creation issues, either - that's just speaking from a programming perspective.

The reason you can't find any tools for newbies to make MMOs is because newbies are not going to be able to cope with the realities of building an MMO. I know you've already said you don't want to start small, but at the very least, start on a small game in terms of player count, and be happy with maybe 20 players concurrently. I conservatively estimate that it would take you about 15 years of full-time study and practice to reach a level where you could program an MMO with limited outside help. I'm not just exaggerating a made-up number to discourage you, either - I'm speaking from real experience. That's about what it took me, and others I know who have comparable skill sets.

Finally, you should read this and seriously consider its advice.

Multiple tools for newbies have been posted here, so there are some. I knew before I even had the idea to make a game that it would take years to do. Frankly I'm disappointed that the "advice" I seem to be getting here is mostly "give up, you'll never be able to do it, only huge companies can do it" when I'm not even asking for opinions on if it's possible or not to make one. I'm not saying I plan to make a MMORPG from scratch, coding everything myself, and that I'll instantly have a huge hit and be able to handle all the server details that would require. I'm saying I want to try making one and am looking for the options available to me at this point.
[/quote]

Have you considered that such advice is probably the truth? So what you're saying is you want an MMO game without having to worry about the servers? You have to understand, making the client, while not a trivial task in itself, doesn't scale to the difficulty of making a server. I read that article ApochPiQ posted, and by the sound of it, you really need to know your stuff to making one of those. Now, if you're looking to just make a 3D game without actually getting too much detail into program, then that is definitely possible. But MMO? No. Not alone. Not with five people. Not with ten people. You need a lot of skilled programmers to even get things going. It would be the equivalent of trying to write a big portion of Wikipedia in a language that you do not know. Impossible? Nothing is impossible. Probable? About as much as winning the lottery.

Either way, it will take you a while. If you want to create a 3D, then the forum can probably aid you in that. Unity and UDK engines are widely suggest for these kinds of games.

Believe it or not, we don't all want to sound discouraging, but it will take you a little more than a few years to achieve that kind of goal with such a limited team.

We tell you to make smaller games for a little more than just experience. When you complete a project successfully, you start to have better approximations of how long projects will take you to finish, and you'll get a boost of courage for having accomplished something with success. When you work on something for years without end and you end up with obscure bugs and you have no idea why the abstractions are leaking, only frustration awaits you and you'll soon realize you don't actually know how to find the answer to your problems. I make it seem a lot more gloomy than it actually is, personally I love myself a good challenge (despite saying I hate it and that it should be killed immediately with fire), but some things are just too big to handle man. You can have as many tools as you can imagine, but a professional with a hammer and saw will still create a better house, if you manage to create one at all. (I hate myself for being a realist sometimes)
[/quote]

I don't need to worry about servers at this point in time. I need to worry about how to actually make the game before servers will even become an issue.

Completing a game and realizing how much time it takes does mean you're gaining experience in "estimating the time it takes to create things". I don't understand why you don't think that is gaining experience. Not to mention, completing little tasks and figuring out small steps in making a huge game should give you just as much of a courage boost as completing a small game, especially if that's your ultimate goal.

[quote name='juicypuffin' timestamp='1307559260' post='4821022']
Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?

Just having the art assets is not enough to make it easy, I still deal mostly in 2d, but I have read a lot on 3d so take my advice with a grain of salt here:

First it really depends on what engine you choose, and what tools they offer. Some engines may have a world editor that's as easy and importing a 3d model of your world, others leave getting your 3d world mesh(es) into the engine completely up to you.

Secondly, Dealing with animation, camera, 3d math,UI, its all pretty difficult to work with for people with experience, someone just learning its going to be a nightmare.

Third, One of the biggest problems I would foresee would be planning, its very hard to completely plan your project without intimate knowledge of the engine and its limitations beforehand so everything works together nicely.

I really hope you can find a all inclusive engine/package that has really good content tools as well as a really good scripting language that would probably be exactly what your looking for.

I am really not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can prove everyone wrong and complete something like this, but speaking from personal experience I went down this road when I first got into hobbyist game development and while I gained some very valuable knowledge and experience with clients and servers I feel that had I worked on some easier to obtain goals I would not only be farther along in my game development, but I think I would have had more fun for me.
[/quote]

With the amount of 3D programs available, and even the amount of MMORPG creators available (or simple RPG creators), one of them has to be more simple to use than another. In addition, it's not like I haven't learned math or like I couldn't learn new math concepts (as well as new programming) if needed. The reason why I want an easy-to-use program is for the same reason as what everyone has said - it is hard to make this stuff. Even if the easiest program still requires you to have perfect knowledge of physics, it would still be better than what the other programs would need you to know.

Nobody here wants to discourage anyone, far from it, I would think. There was plenty of solid advice given, and the comments made by the OP which got downvoted were because he didn't seem to take the advice in stride. It's fantastic to have lofty goals when you start out, as long as you realize that for as long as you're inexperienced, they'll remain lofty. Starting small and working your way up is an approach that many people on this forum have and will continue to recommend, and they don't mean to be offensive with it - just helpful and honest.

Sorry, I'm unsure of where I told everyone that I was planning on making a fantastic MMORPG game in two weeks by myself, with no experience, and where I was unwilling to learn new things in order to make it.

Maybe it takes me ten years to make a MMORPG. But if I make fifty smaller games before making it, it'll take thirty years. I want to put all my efforts as directly into my project as I can.

Nobody here wants to discourage anyone, far from it, I would think. There was plenty of solid advice given, and the comments made by the OP which got downvoted were because he didn't seem to take the advice in stride. It's fantastic to have lofty goals when you start out, as long as you realize that for as long as you're inexperienced, they'll remain lofty. Starting small and working your way up is an approach that many people on this forum have and will continue to recommend, and they don't mean to be offensive with it - just helpful and honest.

Yes, there was plenty of solid advice, and the solid advice that was actually relevant to what the OP was asking for in the first place, he thanked for and probably made use of. The advice that wasn't actually related to his question he didn't go "omg what, shut up" at, but answered stuff like "that's not what I'm looking for, though" to - which I absolutely and completely fail to see how it's worth to thumb down. He was just being honest.

And yes, I felt a need to bold that.
I know I'm sounding like a jerk, but this thread is really tiring, and I don't understand how difficult it can be to just grasp that some of these replies just are irrelevant to what juicypuffin is asking for.

He pretty clearly knows that it's difficult, he just really wants to do this.

Why are you guys thumbing him down and making a fuss out of that he's not blindly accepting the "go do something else until you level up, or have a company behind you before you do this" advice? It's his problem if he doesn't.

I'm not saying the advice is bad. I'm saying the advice is unhelpful to the issue at hand.
This advice is all fine and dandy if someone is asking "how difficult is this? can I do this on my own? how much effort is this going to take? am I perhaps being unrealistic?"

I already said this, but personally I've made tons of small games for experience. It's a great way to do it if you roll that way. It's just not relevant in this thread.