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ageshero

A Newbie, A Vision, No budget.

68 posts in this topic

[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1308745951' post='4826399']
Hello everyone, my name is obviously Ageshero, And i have an extremely bad habbit of biting off way more than i could ever chew.

Go easy on me, dont use fancy words(cause you are smarter than to waste that kind of time on me, haha.) No crazy lingo that anyone outside your hobby could ever understand, and if you going to use it, tell me what it means.(Also, there's a whole load of elitist jerks that keep pointing out some how, no matter how i write, that my post is a wall of letters, Get the hell over it okay? Hahahaha.)

Okay, So here is the point, i want to make a 2D Action/Adventure/ RPG video game, Top down probably. I'm aware of engines like Gamemaker, but it seems a bit annoying... and i don't know if its what i want.
I have no Coding or programing experience, lets even assume that i don't even know what that is.

I'm sure there are plenty of problems to have to work through as i go on with the project that i want, It's probably going to be a pc only game, though getting it to work as a homebrew title for some random device would be absolutely wonderful.

I've pretty much got my head wrapped well around the aspects of Art, pixels, Animation, and im working on getting a fluid work flow and understanding music composition programs and sound effects for a classic feel, being a painter and general character artist etc, and also a musician, im ontop of that.

_

So what i need is some sources on what i should do to start learning how i would make a game. Or a really stretchy game engine that will let me do whatever i want ( Anything that is more flexible than RPGMAKERVX which is seems pretty limited and feels like i havent made my own game at all in any way. And might be the same if not easier than GAMEMAKER)

If i find that game maker is really what i want, what am i able and not able to do inside of this. I dont want "THIS GAME WAS MADE WITH GAMEMAKER" slapped on to some poorly designed and ugly loading screen. I figure theres probably a way to remove it.

So basically in the end im asking if there are any programs i should be aware that will help me make my game, but not take the development abilities away from me.

I want to be able to make cutscenes, and interesting title screens and things. If anyone has some help of any kind, please throw it at me.

Earthbound is the best example, a game pretty similar to the style and function of what i want.
(info like, how on earth did they make things Flash, move, animate, The crazy little background motion effects)

-

Another little bit of info, If gamemaker is my option, I want to make it look like game maker was never even there. I dont want framerate Defying smooth motions that destract entirely from the pixelly style of the game either.
-


Hope this wasnt to confusing, any help is appreciated ( im not a rocket scientist, speak english please.)
[/quote]

[size="5"]Yo no hablan la ciencia de cohetes.[/size]

Honestly, the RPGMaker series is more or less tailored to 2D Top Down RPG games. The other posts with you saying "why can't RPGMaker ver XX do this, or that" makes it obvious you have not done your research at all.

Search around the web, the latest RPG Makers use scripting (Ohmahgosh I need to learn scripting?! Other posters pretty much covered this.), if you have no intent to begin scripting, search the forums of various websites for user submitted scripts. This very from messaging systems to action battle systems. Commercial and successful projects have been made with RPG Maker such as the Aveyond series.

Alright, so I'm not here to constantly praise RPG Maker, it's good at what it does and certainly a great way to start with top-down RPGs as its newb friendly with its eventing system, help file, and pre-made editable database.

Most of the games out there that are fun to play were made by teams. Organization and a position for every member will allow for a more faster game and social/work experience for its members if they plan on entering the industry soon enough. There are also one man projects, people may do every single resource and need by themselves or commission others for their help. This either requires time or a budget respectively, but if you know how to sell your project right, you might interest others and (insert magic SFX here) you may have a team member or a free commissioner!

You have various options as well. Game Maker relies on GML for the making of games. It is possible to make them based only on the D&D (Drag and Drop) system, but it's a big big hassle. If you do not want to learn GML, or have no patience with scripting, I personally don't think you should commit yourself to it. There are a vast number of engines for different kinds of expectations: Stencyl, Game Salad, Multimedia Fusion, Construct, etc.

You have to go around and search, research, and discover your options. (Tom Sloper rule :D) There are always options, and there's always and exception to that rule (even this one). [b]Honestly, I recommend the first thing you absolutely do is go [url="http://sloperama.com/advice.html"]here to Tom Sloper's advice section.[/url][/b] Just what the doctor ordered in my opinion.

Another tip of personal advice from myself is don't start overly ambitious. Judge what you can do and set your limits from there. If you really want to start working on your visioned game, try something like this (For the sake of something I'm experienced with, I'll use RPG maker again):

Teh Bazics:

0- PLAY SOME RPGs. Get to know them.
1- Experiment, get to know the basic foundations. Keep on eventing random things, like doors opening, moving to new locations, and engaging with NPCs or battles.
2- Know what switches, variables, and common events (in the database) are and what they do. Make various little examples.
2- Create a full map that works with events. Little things like object interactions, shops, more NPCs, and simple quests that use switches and variables.
3- Make an experimental dungeon, monster events (or use random encounters), simple puzzles, treasures, and possibly a end-dungeon boss.
4- Now create separate maps, a map for an over world, a map for a town, a map for that towns indoors, a map for the towns dungeon. Link them all.

Dancing and Advancing:

5- See that button that links to the database, the great mammoth of a window with a lot of tabs? Press it.
6- Look at all the screens and familiarize yourself with what they do. Experiment.
7- The database consists various elements such as animations, eventing, RPG statistics, weapons, spells, items, common events, battles, etc. This will vary depending on your version of RPG Maker.
8.1- Known how RPGs work, behind the scenes. How to make balanced attacks, stats, items, skills,[b] [/b]monsters, etc.
8.2- Customize your database, make your own animations, your own spells, items, weapons. Make your own characters and specialize their stats for their respective classes/jobs. Customize tilesets (also called chipsets) as needed for various areas. Make your own monsters. Make your own battles with in-battle events for bosses or other encounters. Make your own monster parties. LIMITLESS THINGS.

Expertize:

9- Click that script button, see what makes RPG Maker XP or VX tick. (RPG Maker uses a scripting language based off of Ruby.)
10- Make your own scripts, learn how to use other user made scripts. Learn how to use an customize different kinds of scripts overall.
11- Learn the creation of story lines. (Very important, it's an RPG dammit. You want a convincing role.)
12- Master mapping and mapping tricks to create great maps.
13- Import resources. Sprite your own sprites, sprite your own tilesets, make your own music, your own SFX, your own scripts, your own animation sheets, your own ETC. Otherwise, use resources other people have kindly made, give credit.
14- Sharpen use of the engine to create an atmosphere using said scripting for light effects, storyline, events, battles, music, and other things.
15- Use all above and other learned abilities
16- ???
17- Game and experience in several areas that can be put to use for other game engines.

Along the steps, make small, little games, that advance as you advance to test your knowledge so far. You do not have to release these small projects. Asking communities (Like RMVX, RpgRpgRevolution, and other communities) for feedback and other tips of advice is also helpful. ...Just be careful though, not all are nice people (trolls and flames, hello!), [b]and make sure to use the search button FIRST. [/b]

The above steps can be mutated for other engines depending on the genre. Shmup? Play some, study them, make them. Shooter? Same. Platformer? Same. Puzzle? Same. Other RPGs in other engines? Same, of course with the addition that you will have to make your own database as opposed to RPG Makers pre-made one. So study RPG Makers script for its database if you want an idea.

If your just going to pick up any game engine, like Construct lets say, for two second without experimenting or reading tutorials, say "Meh, can't do crap" and toss it into the recycle bin, you're going to get [b]nowhere. [/b]

More kudos to Tom Sloper for his help greatly. :3
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Interesting, but im not really enthused with using RPGmaker, i feel like im cheating, Lol.

Game maker seems really really versatile and if you can master it, you really can do anything you want in the realm of 2d.
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[quote name='thatguyfromthething' timestamp='1308965576' post='4827427']
I think it's terrible advice to work with RPGmaker unless it can deliver the end result you want.

You should not waste any time learning anything that won't be used for your project. If you learn to make games that way, you will waste years and be no closer to making a real game.

If you want to make a fully 3D RPG then it's a lot of work and so is any RPG for that matter, but it's not really less work to make it in a 2D engine than 3D though probably doesn't require as much programming skills, and with 2D engine you probably need to program it yourself so you are making both a game and an engine.

No matter what your goals and budget are, just look for the tools you need first, in this case an engine. Then look what will be needed.

Realistically you can count on making an RPG in C++, though. You will probably fail utterly in any other method of development unless you have a very limited scope game. Most of the engines out there provide very poor support for any game but a shooter. The ability to make complicated data driven GUI just isn't there.

But this place is full of incredibly terrible advice. If you listen to most people here you will get nowhere, the issue is not just lack of knowledge but you need to realize that very few of them are making games like what you are making (if they are actually making games at all). I happen to have made a game similar to what you want, though not released yet the software is done for some time now, and it's just completely different needs compared to what most people have experience doing (console or cell phone games).

So say you want to say make a Fallout 1 clone then you get a bunch of people suggesting you use an engine like Unity that only really works with games that could be played on a cell phone easily not an old school RPG - graphics complexity hardly matters here, it's about how easy it is to work with data and create GUI that will make or break your project, not how easy it is to get art assets in (and honestly for any but simplest game this is just a nonissue - it it takes a month to import your assets (and no engine is that bad) then it's nothing compared to making a 5 year game, but a serious problem when making a one month game).

UDK has everything you need but they are not much better for GUI stuff than Unity, maybe worse. Plus the damned thing just isn't stable. If you had C++ support I'd say it's ok but that costs a lot of money

I ended up using my own engine, but it's probably not realistic to go from no programming experience to making your own engine to making your own game all in one go. Actually it's highly unrealistic to make a big RPG by yourself but it's not impossible to do so, it's just a lot of work.

So I'd try to find engine first (or maybe a couple engines you can try out) , get some C++ books, then get going. Yes you will make a lot of mistakes, especially as someone just learning to program, but you will start to see the issues of the problem at hand. If you start off making connect 4 or RPG maker you simply won't ever get started on your real project let alone complete it. This way at least you learn basics of how engines work, and even if you switch engines eventually the next time around you will be much smarter in selecting you tools because you know what to look for.

Eventually you will probably need some kind of team but a team is actually very easy to get together if you have anything to show. If you don't then there's no need for a team because they are a lot of work to communicate with and will just slow things down if you already have a task to do at hand. When you see how much work it is you will probably quit because it is years of work, but if you chip away at it long enough you will get done eventually, you just have to be patient and realize you won't be releasing anything new week, or next year, or maybe even 5 years from now.
[/quote]

Ageshero, whatever you wind up doing, however you wind up doing it, PLEASE do not listen to a single thing that is said here. This might be the worst, mostly untrue bunch of sentences I have read in a long time.
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[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1308745951' post='4826399']
Hello everyone, my name is obviously Ageshero, And i have an extremely bad habbit of biting off way more than i could ever chew.

Go easy on me, dont use fancy words(cause you are smarter than to waste that kind of time on me, haha.) No crazy lingo that anyone outside your hobby could ever understand, and if you going to use it, tell me what it means.(Also, there's a whole load of elitist jerks that keep pointing out some how, no matter how i write, that my post is a wall of letters, Get the hell over it okay? Hahahaha.)

Okay, So here is the point, i want to make a 2D Action/Adventure/ RPG video game, Top down probably. I'm aware of engines like Gamemaker, but it seems a bit annoying... and i don't know if its what i want.
I have no Coding or programing experience, lets even assume that i don't even know what that is.

I'm sure there are plenty of problems to have to work through as i go on with the project that i want, It's probably going to be a pc only game, though getting it to work as a homebrew title for some random device would be absolutely wonderful.

I've pretty much got my head wrapped well around the aspects of Art, pixels, Animation, and im working on getting a fluid work flow and understanding music composition programs and sound effects for a classic feel, being a painter and general character artist etc, and also a musician, im ontop of that.

_

So what i need is some sources on what i should do to start learning how i would make a game. Or a really stretchy game engine that will let me do whatever i want ( Anything that is more flexible than RPGMAKERVX which is seems pretty limited and feels like i havent made my own game at all in any way. And might be the same if not easier than GAMEMAKER)

If i find that game maker is really what i want, what am i able and not able to do inside of this. I dont want "THIS GAME WAS MADE WITH GAMEMAKER" slapped on to some poorly designed and ugly loading screen. I figure theres probably a way to remove it.

So basically in the end im asking if there are any programs i should be aware that will help me make my game, but not take the development abilities away from me.

I want to be able to make cutscenes, and interesting title screens and things. If anyone has some help of any kind, please throw it at me.

Earthbound is the best example, a game pretty similar to the style and function of what i want.
(info like, how on earth did they make things Flash, move, animate, The crazy little background motion effects)

-

Another little bit of info, If gamemaker is my option, I want to make it look like game maker was never even there. I dont want framerate Defying smooth motions that destract entirely from the pixelly style of the game either.
-


Hope this wasnt to confusing, any help is appreciated ( im not a rocket scientist, speak english please.)
[/quote]
I tried jumping right into 3d game engines to make games...for a while. Then I realized that I had no clue what was going on in the background, at a lower level. So I started experimenting with OpenGL, and while I'm rather limited (the best I'm doing right now is a textured cube (albiet with VBOs, texture objects, and vertex normals), I understand what is going on.

It's a road less traveled, but you learn a lot more. I would recommend that you write these game ideas down in a binder and then stick it in on the shelf. Work with the basics for a while (the root APIs- OpenGL and DirectX). Then once you are competent in the basics, pull the binder off the shelf. One more thing- almost all successful games of any size (even 2D) are built by a team. Not individuals. Start small.
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I have tried to stay away from this topic as much as possible. I then thought, maybe he/she will turn around and give some of his 'engines' he wants to use another try.

I want to point out a few things that irk me about your posts. In no way do I want to say your a failure, nor do I say that your wrong. I am merely giving you advice based on what your stating here. Its clear that you have no idolistic principles when it comes to programming. That is fine. But what you want to do is wrong 100% of the way. Your are about to go about it the wrong way, and while you may succeed in some wierd fashion in your head, everyone around you will notice what you haven't done.

Let me break it down for you clearly at first.

1. You stated that RPG Maker cannot due cutscenes. As someone who has used RPGMaker since 2000, You are 100% incorrect about this. A cutscene is anything where you loose control of your character and it is event driven in the area of telling a story or showing a significant event which may or not impact the gameplay. Credits are a cutscene, an intro is a cutscene, two characters getting it on is a cutscene. The victory of a Pokemon battle where the pokemon then evolves... is a cut scene. All of this is available to you using variables and triggered events in RPG Maker. I need you to do some research before you bash something that you don't clearly know.

2. RPG Maker is a very versatile tool. You get what you put into it. I am not going to burn you to hard because you said you don't know programming. I am going to assume also that you don't know what Google is and you never heard of a Forum until you posted here. There are at least 5-6 forums dedicated to the RGGS script and scripts that players and game creators have made with RPG Maker to add functionality to the engine that was not there before. You can customize RPG Maker to pretty much suit anything you want. Its a 2D engine only, though its so versatile someone has created a psuedo 3D engine. I would reccomend you learn RUBY if you want to take another approach to this concept. When you have learned RUBY please come back and tell me that RPG Maker is not a versatile tool.

2A. I want to point out also that there was 2 games that were released as a commercial product made and created from RPG Maker. Do a search on Wikipedia. You can find the games there.

3. GameMaker is a powerful tool aswell. With you wanting to remove the "powered by" splash is almost a slap to every persons face. You didn't make the engine. Nor did you spend the countless hours developing the studio in which you could create a learning staging area and create a sophisticated set of tools to ensure that the user doesn't create a harmful product. Instead you want to take there stuff and claim credit for it. Why? Because it makes you something your not? I know alot of video game developers that would rather show off the wonderful logos of what they used. Its almost a badge of honor to some, You created this with LUA? You created this in GAME MAKER? Wow, I am impressed. I would rethink that approach.

4. The UDK comment you had was not the most intellegant albeit probably your only one that did stand a small ground. Heres what I mean. You stated it would be a unique concept. Your right, it would be a very unique concept. Every game designer out there would be like, so your telling me you used a Car to hammer in that nail? Why. The point of an engine isn't to find the best one cause it has all this fancy pantsy crap in it that sounds like its good. Nor is it because you get a toolset that makes things pretty. The idea of an engine is to make your life easier and to make game play easier to create for you the developer. Making a FPS engine into a TOP DOWN Action Adventure RPG is like saying, the reason you bought an Oven was to heat up the water to take a bath with. Its completly assinine. Use something that is made for what your looking for.

-----------Now comes the healing process.--------------------

We have all been there. We have been in your shoes saying, hey where do we start? Where do I go? You came to this board asking advice. I have seen some good, some rough and some Excellent advice given to you. So far your posts remind me of the thread where someone came here saying this board is nothing but people saying make your own engine. HazePhaze I believe his name was. Your not listening. Instead your posts are here to show how much you don't understand and you want to tell us, people who are trying to help, how to make games based on what you apply as game logic. I replied to give you the benifit of the doubt that your new, probably a little younger than some people here and thats ok. Age really has no factor, but realize that starting younger means you have to listen to people who have been dealing with this situation for awhile. We all started at the bottom, making pong, making a calculator, making hangman, making stick figures, making a circle touch a triangle and the program crash immediatly. We have all been to those stages of learning. If you want to learn, then learn. If you want to come here and post about how you want to learn but rough it out about how it is... then please post no more.

We are here to help. If you take my advice, I will gladly show you the way to use RPG Maker, and that company EnterBrain has created a special studio just for this called AGM. Its a little rough to understand, but its something you might like. Once again, talk to us, don't bash us. Be yourself.

-Mayple
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The reason you shouldn't use UDK is that any experience you gain using an appropriate design tool will help you when you switch to UDK for another title.

For example, you want to slice bread now and chop down a tree later. Using a chainsaw on the bread will not give you a significant advantage when cutting the tree. By using a grossly overpowered tool on the bread, you give yourself additional frustration.

Now change bread to 2D game, tree to 3D game, and chainsaw to UDK.

I hope that was helpful.
My method? I'm going to college as a game design major. Good luck.
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Also, I didn't see the last two pages before posting. Oops. Nice advice, Mayple. Hope it's put to good use!

My experience using an inappropriate tool...I made a game using VB6 in my high school VB programming class.
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I first got my programming fix with rpg maker. I see no problem of using it to make a game. The reason is that it teaches the user the amount of work needed to make a complete game. If somebody can constantly use the rpg maker event language to make interesting things happen, that is almost like computer programmming there.

I remember going from rpg maker 95 to rm2k. Rm2k had variables that you could set to several different things and compare to several different things. That is programming right there. It took me a while to fully comprehend it all. I was just entering highschool at the time :D.

It did not take much longer for me to really want to program after using the rm2k event scripts. I got into using qbasic and made some silly tile based maze game. Awesomest game I ever made with not knowing everything I was doing :P

The point I am trying to say is, use the tool to learn. It helps when you have that knowledge of the tool to create a tool of your own.
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Rm2k was great. I made event driven movies and used them as history projects in high school :)
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[quote]A Newbie, A Vision, No budget. Absolutely no experience.[/quote]

Perfect! :D The more sh*t you are in at the start the better your chances of survival once/if you have or learn or display the incredible patience required to emerge from the first few years of appalling confusion.

Projects like this are without doubt the most interesting of all if they succeed.

Just be prepared for how long it will take. Forget deadlines, let it take as long as it wants to take is the only advice I feel just about comfortable enough to give :cool:
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Oh and be careful you don't get too mad whens tuff goes wrong. I'm sure I read somewhere that it angers God or something.
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Patience, my friend, patience. I spent several years learning, and I still haven't completed my dream project. Patience.

Learn programming. Learn to do your own art. Be active in online communities; especially ones that center around game development, programming, art, or game modding. Make contacts, gain respect, learn things related to game development. Look around for the numerous resources that occasionally get brought up -- sloperama.org is a big one here. You might need to buy a book or two later on; but not now. Eventually you'll need to get a little bit together so you can make your own company, or maybe you'll join another startup; but that won't be for quite some time yet.

Regardless, you're not where you need to be to make your vision into a game just yet, and nothing anyone on this forum would be willing to do for you will make your game without patience and hard work on your end.

Good luck to ya!
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[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1309493096' post='4829882']
I might just end up being good at what i do[/quote]
If you aren't already good at what you do, this ought to be your first goal.
And if this is what you do, why would you want to do something else?
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I would try to get into programing, because i don't have any friends or reliable partners in the business of making games to work with. At least not anyone stable or flexible with an open mind to try getting made a rpg like im wanting to.
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[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1309533310' post='4830041']
I would try to get into programing, because i don't have any friends or reliable partners in the business of making games to work with. At least not anyone stable or flexible with an open mind to try getting made a rpg like im wanting to.
[/quote]

There are countless programmers on these forums, many of which are very reliable. Although learning some programming yourself may help with dealing with them, I wouldn't make it your priority.

It's hard to find concept artists and composers/musicians willing to work for free. If you already have a mild amount of talent with these, I would begin developing those. Also in the art front is pixel art (sprites for 2D games), UI design (can make a big difference for some games), and modeling (making a 3D "model" for characters, enemies, objects, etc in 3D games).

As far as writing is concerned, there's actually a ton of writing to be done for video games. You could give [url=http://www.gamedev.net/forum/17-game-design/]game design[/url] a try, and work on a GDD for your masterpiece. There's also [url=http://www.gamedev.net/forum/32-writing-for-games/]storyline[/url], which nowadays is a major part for many games. Or you could try and develop a mystical ancient language and a world for one of the many MMO projects being undertaken by indie devs (though most of these fail).
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