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mikeman

What do you think about the Revelation?

472 posts in this topic

I'm interested to hear what other people think about this book and its consequences. Personally, although I consider myself to be a Christian, or at least try to, am not interested the least in the Revelation. From where I stand, it's even harmful: It talks about wars, armies, revenge, wrath, enemies and other stuff that seem very distanced from what Jesus tought. And it has been used by the Christian Church in numerous times to justify acts of extreme violence, which are shameful, to say the least, to be associated with Christianity. Overall, although as a young kid I used to read it for its vivid, fantasy imagery, I don't see how this book contributes positively to anything at all.

Your thoughts? (Please no flamewars!)
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I find it to be very... revealing.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/7/73/20110128203738%21Trollface.png[/img]

I'm going to wait for my actual opinions to see what others have to say though.
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I'm about in the same boat with you mikeman. Though, I just see the Revelation as an event. As for the churches using it for "excuse for punishment of sins" and stuff, I disagree.

I look at it like God saving his important files on another disk because there's too many viruses on the computer (this world for instance).

Then he'll do a fresh install. And everything will be cool.
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it's a heads up basically. if you read it you'll see pretty much all the events in it are kicked off by man. I know the bowls and trumpets are are unlocked by an angel but God has to correct his creation at some point in accordance within His law. that said, the saints are given a sort of out before the bad stuff happens and it speaks several times about them not being fooled by the events surrounding them and generally protecting them. however, it is man who tries to usurp God with an earthly army after out-rightly rejecting him and his commandments for several thousand years and that's when God starts busting skulls and showing us the size of his e-peen.
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[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1310382838' post='4833667']
I'm interested to hear what other people think about this book and its consequences. Personally, although I consider myself to be a Christian, or at least try to, am not interested the least in the Revelation. From where I stand, it's even harmful: It talks about wars, armies, revenge, wrath, enemies and other stuff that seem very distanced from what Jesus tought. And it has been used by the Christian Church in numerous times to justify acts of extreme violence, which are shameful, to say the least, to be associated with Christianity. Overall, although as a young kid I used to read it for its vivid, fantasy imagery, I don't see how this book contributes positively to anything at all.

Your thoughts? (Please no flamewars!)
[/quote]


Revelation speaks of the end of the battle between wickedness and righteousness. Gods mercy will accept any repentant soul who wants to change and live a righteous life, but will not force any man to be righteous. God has given many warnings to all of us of the consequences of sin. We are free to choose to follow God or to follow Satan, but we are not free to choose the consequences that follow our actions.

So why would God allow these consequences to fall upon us if he loves us? He does it because he loves us. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/12/5-11#6"]Hebrews 12[/url]). I like to imagine it like a child who does not want to do any work in school. If no correction is made the child will grow up and probably not graduate for college or even high school. It wouldn't be likely have a good job and would have a lower quality life because the child never learned to work hard. While the child may find it cruel that they may loose their video games for a time or not be able to play with friends, this is done because the parents love their child and want to correct them.

The destruction in revelation will be a direct consequence of our own wickedness. There will be righteous people, but there will be a lot of wickedness on the earth. Before Christ can come and personally reign on the earth it must be purged of that wickedness. Keep in mind that this life is a brief moment in eternity. All that is lost will be returned to those who are faithful. Those who want to live in a world with no evil must work to cleanse themselves of wickedness, and through Christ we can all be clean of that. To have a world free of evil God must cleanse the earth of those who don't want to be clean through Christ and continue in sin. Like anything spiritual, you should pray for understanding on this. I don't have a perfect knowledge of this but this is how I understand it. I hope I was able to communicative my ideas clearly.
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Everytime I think about Christians and their end times, I think of pseudo-Wiccans and their burning thymes, and I just can't take it seriously. Why are we always on the cusp of the end times? Why can't we kick it down the road a few thousand years? Why can't Satan just go to a bookstore and read how he's going to fail and change his plan? It's not like it's hard to find the Bible, they give it out on street corners and Satan seems to have enough freewill to rebel, why not to read?
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[quote name='Binomine' timestamp='1310468564' post='4834232']
Everytime I think about Christians and their end times, I think of pseudo-Wiccans and their burning thymes, and I just can't take it seriously. Why are we always on the cusp of the end times? Why can't we kick it down the road a few thousand years? Why can't Satan just go to a bookstore and read how he's going to fail and change his plan? It's not like it's hard to find the Bible, they give it out on street corners and Satan seems to have enough freewill to rebel, why not to read?
[/quote]
Because that would make sense, you infidel!
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[quote name='Binomine' timestamp='1310468564' post='4834232']
Everytime I think about Christians and their end times, I think of pseudo-Wiccans and their burning thymes, and I just can't take it seriously. Why are we always on the cusp of the end times? Why can't we kick it down the road a few thousand years? Why can't Satan just go to a bookstore and read how he's going to fail and change his plan? It's not like it's hard to find the Bible, they give it out on street corners and Satan seems to have enough freewill to rebel, why not to read?
[/quote]
Why are we always on the cusp of the end times?

The Bible contains several passages about Christs return. 1) The last days will be as the days of Noah (lawless). As society progressively seeks to expand its civil liberties there is an every increasing perception that it [i]has[/i] to be right around the corner. 2) The Bible tells us that Christ will return like a thief in the night meaning he will show up when we least expect it. So maybe we think we can prevent his return or even "catch" him if we're always ready?? I don't understand why people stay hyped up over this one reasoning. 3) There is a passage saying his return will be as two men walking in a field when suddenly one of them is missing and only one remains behind. This gives the perception that it could happen at literally any minute. 4) There is another passage that describes how only those who "keep their oil filled" will be allowed in upon his return so this means we have to always be ready for this return.

Why can't we kick it down the road a few thousand years?

The Bible says no man knows the day nor the hour of Christs return not even Christ himself but only the Father knows. Also the Bible tells us to tarry till he returns meaning just to carry on as usual but to remain ready should it happen. People who get so absorbed in the fact Christ could return any second are actually not doing what the Bible says and may very well be acting out of fear, which the Bible describes to be the first class of people thrown into the lake of fire at the last judgement (the fearful).

Why can't Satan just go to a bookstore and read how he's going to fail and change his plan?

There is a passage in Revelation that Satan knows he only has a short time on Earth and therefore justifies him trying to do as much damage as possible. Satan knows he can't assume the throne of God. His ONLY goal is to prevent people from knowing God as father and thus being unable to accept salvation. So he's just trying to drag as many people down with him as possible before his ship sinks.
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[quote name='Binomine' timestamp='1310468564' post='4834232']
Everytime I think about Christians and their end times, I think of pseudo-Wiccans and their burning thymes, and I just can't take it seriously. Why are we always on the cusp of the end times? Why can't we kick it down the road a few thousand years? Why can't Satan just go to a bookstore and read how he's going to fail and change his plan? It's not like it's hard to find the Bible, they give it out on street corners and Satan seems to have enough freewill to rebel, why not to read?
[/quote]

Revelation has nothing to do with Satan defeating or being defeated. It has to do with God separating the righteous from the rest.
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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1310491819' post='4834398']
Revelation has nothing to do with Satan defeating or being defeated. It has to do with God separating the righteous from the rest.
[/quote]I think you missed the part where he gets chained and thrown into a pit, then later being thrown into the lake of fire.
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[quote name='KidsLoveSatan' timestamp='1310496474' post='4834442']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1310491819' post='4834398']
Revelation has nothing to do with Satan defeating or being defeated. It has to do with God separating the righteous from the rest.
[/quote]I think you missed the part where he gets chained and thrown into a pit, then later being thrown into the lake of fire.
[/quote]
Ok I exaggerated the "nothing to do with." It is primarily to do with God separating the righteous from the rest and the events/results of doing so.
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[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1310382838' post='4833667']
I don't see how this book contributes positively to anything at all.
[/quote]

Extrapolating, you could say why not throw out the entire OT, since it doesn't really contribute anything positive. Most of the NT you could make a case for too. Why not just reduce the Bible to just John 3:16?[img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
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[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1310563899' post='4834814']
Why not just reduce the Bible to just John 3:16?[img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

That's a good question. However, I think that John 3:18 would be better.
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[quote name='rozz666' timestamp='1310569816' post='4834853']
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1310563899' post='4834814']
Why not just reduce the Bible to just John 3:16?[img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

That's a good question. However, I think that John 3:18 would be better.
[/quote]

Just to be complete we'll go with 16 - 18 [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1310576074' post='4834900']
[quote name='rozz666' timestamp='1310569816' post='4834853']
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1310563899' post='4834814']
Why not just reduce the Bible to just John 3:16?[img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

That's a good question. However, I think that John 3:18 would be better.
[/quote]

Just to be complete we'll go with 16 - 18 [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Since we're reducing the bible, I'll go with Matthew 22:39.

especially if your neighbour is hot....:rolleyes:
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[quote name='HappyCoder' timestamp='1310434267' post='4834085']
Revelation speaks of the end of the battle between wickedness and righteousness. Gods mercy will accept any repentant soul who wants to change and live a righteous life, but will not force any man to be righteous. God has given many warnings to all of us of the consequences of sin. We are free to choose to follow God or to follow Satan, but we are not free to choose the consequences that follow our actions.

So why would God allow these consequences to fall upon us if he loves us? He does it because he loves us. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/12/5-11#6"]Hebrews 12[/url]). I like to imagine it like a child who does not want to do any work in school. If no correction is made the child will grow up and probably not graduate for college or even high school. It wouldn't be likely have a good job and would have a lower quality life because the child never learned to work hard. While the child may find it cruel that they may loose their video games for a time or not be able to play with friends, this is done because the parents love their child and want to correct them.

The destruction in revelation will be a direct consequence of our own wickedness. There will be righteous people, but there will be a lot of wickedness on the earth. Before Christ can come and personally reign on the earth it must be purged of that wickedness. Keep in mind that this life is a brief moment in eternity. All that is lost will be returned to those who are faithful. Those who want to live in a world with no evil must work to cleanse themselves of wickedness, and through Christ we can all be clean of that. To have a world free of evil God must cleanse the earth of those who don't want to be clean through Christ and continue in sin. Like anything spiritual, you should pray for understanding on this. I don't have a perfect knowledge of this but this is how I understand it. I hope I was able to communicative my ideas clearly.
[/quote]

a god- his surrounding community is based upon what community likes and loves
an antigod- his surrounding community is based upon what community dislikes and hates

Judeo-christian god is not an antigod, lets see his 10 laws
1th-2th-3th- love your god
4th- love your parents
5th-6th-7th-8th- love/respect other people
9th-10th- love your relatives

I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.
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What does the man who constantly hallucinates beautiful goddesses showering him with gifts see during the events outlined in Revelations?

The mind is a trickster, but who's mind is it?
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[quote name='landlocked' timestamp='1310479001' post='4834295']
Why are we always on the cusp of the end times? [/quote]Exactly.

As you said, it can come anytime, but when you think of it another way, it can come at anytime.

If you had a number line that is stretched from NOW --> Anytime, you'd realize that anytime can be a pretty far away number. It is more likely larger than a saeculum, the length of time from NOW to the time when every human alive at this very moment is dead and replaced by their children. Since there is an infinity time between as saeculum and infinity and a short time between now and a saeculum.

All those passes that it can come at anytime can also be about death, which can come at anytime as well. That was the point of the wise and foolish virgins.

Still, compared to how early Christians had it, we're still not at a point that rivals them, let alone Noah. No one is being burned as decor. The rate of peace is pretty high in this time period compared to many others. Some of the governments in the world, like socialism, are based on principals found in Christianity. I just can't see anyone reaching that conclusion that we are slipping into a time like Noah's.
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[quote name='JohnnyCode' timestamp='1310652855' post='4835257']
I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.
[/quote]


I repeat myself, punishment does not come out of hate. Read [url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/12/5-11#6"]Hebrews 12:5-11[/url] It clearly states that God punishes us to correct he. He loves us and finds us worth the trouble to correct. He chastens us because he loves us. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/hel/15/3#3"]Helaman 15:3[/url])

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses. We all sin. Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Our own guilt would bear down upon us and we would much rather be somewhere else. On our own we cannot make it back. That is why God sent Christ. For anyone who repents can become clean through Christ. Past actions can be forgiven. We don't have to have a perfect track record. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/1/18#18"]Isaiah 1:18[/url]) We do however have to repent, and part of repentance is stopping the unclean behaviors. We can be spotless when the day of judgment comes and we will have a clear conscience. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/2/38-41#38"]Mosiah 2:32-41[/url])

We all have our agency. We are free to follow God or follow Satan. We cannot choose the consequences. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/42/27-28"]Alma 42:27-28[/url]) That is how it is.
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[quote name='HappyCoder' timestamp='1310853117' post='4836155']
[quote name='JohnnyCode' timestamp='1310652855' post='4835257']
I do not see any point in destroying wickedness, since it is a quite vital thing. Should I end up in a world where people just have to opress each other, have no pations, are scared and do not trust anyone, where there is just fear and unhapiness. Would be even worse than here on earth. And one last thing, do not use Christ as an icon of antigod movement. Icon of antigod movement is daemon Legion, cursed by wicked gods, he is constantly bleeding from his mouth. Realm of an antigod is a prison , becouse it would be empty if it was not, and more they torture, the more moral and better they feel. Luckily, according to reachable literature, antigods do not exist. Do not call for hate and destruction, Jesus represents understanding and love, not theese things that haters are after.
[/quote]


I repeat myself, punishment does not come out of hate. Read [url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/12/5-11#6"]Hebrews 12:5-11[/url] It clearly states that God punishes us to correct he. He loves us and finds us worth the trouble to correct. He chastens us because he loves us. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/hel/15/3#3"]Helaman 15:3[/url])

God is a perfectly righteous being. If we want to live with him we need to become like him. Unfortunately we all have our weaknesses. We all sin. Sin makes us unclean and no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Our own guilt would bear down upon us and we would much rather be somewhere else. On our own we cannot make it back. That is why God sent Christ. For anyone who repents can become clean through Christ. Past actions can be forgiven. We don't have to have a perfect track record. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/1/18#18"]Isaiah 1:18[/url]) We do however have to repent, and part of repentance is stopping the unclean behaviors. We can be spotless when the day of judgment comes and we will have a clear conscience. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/2/38-41#38"]Mosiah 2:32-41[/url])

We all have our agency. We are free to follow God or follow Satan. We cannot choose the consequences. ([url="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/42/27-28"]Alma 42:27-28[/url]) That is how it is.
[/quote]

I choose not to believe in the narcissistic psychopath that is yahweh. If by some absurdly small chance the "revalation" does come to pass, I will stand before god and tell him that there was insufficient evidence to believe in him, but I have lead a (mostly ) good life, loved my neighbour (a lot more than the deranged bigots who commit untold atrocities in his name) and if he decides to condemn me, well then he's just proved I was right about him in the first place.
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[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1310886899' post='4836272']
I choose not to believe in the narcissistic psychopath that is yahweh. If by some absurdly small chance the "revalation" does come to pass, I will stand before god and tell him that there was insufficient evidence to believe in him, but I have lead a (mostly ) good life, loved my neighbour (a lot more than the deranged bigots who commit untold atrocities in his name) and if he decides to condemn me, well then he's just proved I was right about him in the first place.
[/quote]

If you're starting with the assumption that God is an arrogant punisher you want nothing to do with you aren't giving him much reason not to condemn you even putting aside that you may or may not believe in him.
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