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kawakes

My friend is starting to like Java (help!)

32 posts in this topic

Really? Its Java. It is a great language for a wide range of projects, and often gets more done per unit of programmer time in those domains than what C++ usually allows.

If that is one of the biggest issues you can find to talk about in this world, then maybe the real world isn't the place for you?
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Your title says friend, but the actual post content gives the impression of someone hired by you. If he is is just your friend, he should be perfectly capable of making his own choice of tool depending on what he likes and need for a certain project. In the same way, he should be okay with using what tools you've defined if he is hired by you. After all, it sounds like he is proficient with both.

I like Java, and I like C++. What's up with having to choose sides? Do jokes about them Java guys if you like, but in the end we're all programmers, aren't we? [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]

(Optionally you can just unfriend him)
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[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1311109491' post='4837624']
[quote name='Tiner' timestamp='1311108768' post='4837617']
My programmer is starting to like java more then c++! What should I do?
[/quote]

This is quite natural, Java only starts to look bad when you compare it to C#, compared to C++ its pretty darn nice to work with.
[/quote]

I came here to say essentially this.
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"I know you had the best intentions, but I think it's time we moved on. It's you, not me." <_< Yeah you should probably tell him about C#/.NET development. He'd probably enjoy it more.
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The OP was joking, along the lines of "help! my friend has turned to cocain!"
I've worked with C++, Java and - [i]a little[/i] - C# and am doing my current project in C#.

I [i]like[/i] Java. I used to laugh at it too, but I like the minimalist approach of just taking a lot out of the language. I reminds me of C in spirit.

But I think C# is a winner. At its core it's like Java with hindsight and its developers (as in Microsoft) are a lot more ambitious and spirited right now (than Oracle w/r/t Java).

Buuuut I haven't been paying enough attention to Java lately to judge that with certainty. Anyone care to comment on that last point?
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[quote name='mind in a box' timestamp='1311112367' post='4837644']
Does he want to rewrite your whole project in Java now or what?
[/quote]

Haha, no thankfully. He agrees that a game engines should never be written in java unless it's meant for the web
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Iam sorry but I just have to stand up for Java here, I <3 Java its my favorite language, Iam a .NET C# developer at work, but I much prefer to work on my own Java based projects, I dont know why but I just find coding in Java more enjoyable.
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[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1311119143' post='4837703']
Iam sorry but I just have to stand up for Java here, I <3 Java its my favorite language, Iam a .NET C# developer at work, but I much prefer to work on my own Java based projects, I dont know why but I just find coding in Java more enjoyable.
[/quote]

Why do you like Java better than C#? I'm not disputing your choice, but I'd be interested to know the reasons behind it.
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Death by firing squad.

It's the only way.



Seriously, though, I'd rather get stabbed in the eye with an ice pick every morning than keep using C++, so at least he's moving towards the lesser of two evils. Which is not to say Java isn't a horrid language, it's just... much less horrid than C++.
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A bullet between his eyes. It's cruel but if you are a true friend you should release him from this madness. :P
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Sometimes I think this whole elite C++ stuff is just insane. The vast majority of amateur programmers are not writing software that needs to take advantage of the "amazing speed increase" in C++. Its so silly when new people are told "use C++ its the industry standard" or "dont use Java, its slow". I can guarantee that most of these people have never even hit a limitation of Javas speed yet, let alone absolutely need to use C++.

I cant tell you how many times class mates of mine question why I program games in Java. I do it because I havent yet found a reason not too, and most of the people saying its "slow" dont even know if thats true :)

CRAZY TALK!
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[img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333628/OTHER/Java.jpg[/img]
[size="1"]*I think Java is just another language. Use whatever, man.[/size]
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[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1311110130' post='4837627']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1311109491' post='4837624']
[quote name='Tiner' timestamp='1311108768' post='4837617']
My programmer is starting to like java more then c++! What should I do?
[/quote]

This is quite natural, Java only starts to look bad when you compare it to C#, compared to C++ its pretty darn nice to work with.
[/quote]

I came here to say essentially this.
[/quote]

I came here to say essentially this also!!!
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[quote name='joeparrilla' timestamp='1311130530' post='4837762']
Sometimes I think this whole elite C++ stuff is just insane. The vast majority of amateur programmers are not writing software that needs to take advantage of the "amazing speed increase" in C++. Its so silly when new people are told "use C++ its the industry standard" or "dont use Java, its slow". I can guarantee that most of these people have never even hit a limitation of Javas speed yet, let alone absolutely need to use C++.

I cant tell you how many times class mates of mine question why I program games in Java. I do it because I havent yet found a reason not too, and most of the people saying its "slow" dont even know if thats true :)

CRAZY TALK!
[/quote]

I agree completely vs C++. However C# > Java > C++. The tools are simply amazing, and the language is evolving quite nicely.
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[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1311114666' post='4837672']
We are surely not talking about the same Java. You do mean the language that goes to extra effort to enforce verbosity in every aspect of the syntax, and which standard library provides no less than 5 mutually-incompatible ways to read a file, right?
That said, I don't really dislike Java. I just find it to be a verbose and much less-friendly alternative to Python :)
[/quote]

Umm, yessir. I was actually thinking about the language rules when I said that. There's nothing like refs, pointers, unsigned, stack allocated classes, restricted MI (the "interface" thing), etc. Next to C# and C++ it strikes me as [i]feature light[/i].

I realize though there are more aspects to the product than that, such as the standard library and naming convention. You are correct. I just had something very specific in mind when I made that comment.
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[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1311114666' post='4837672']
We are surely not talking about the same Java. You do mean the language that goes to extra effort to enforce verbosity in every aspect of the syntax, and which standard library provides no less than 5 mutually-incompatible ways to read a file, right?
That said, I don't really dislike Java. I just find it to be a verbose and much less-friendly alternative to Python :)
[/quote]

Umm, yessir. I was actually thinking about the language rules when I said that. There's nothing like refs, pointers, stack allocated classes, unsigned integers, type punning, restricted MI (the "interface" thing), etc. Next to C# and C++ it strikes me as [i]feature light[/i] and strict. Like safety scissors.

I realize though there are more aspects to the product than that, such as the standard library and naming convention. You are correct. I just had something very specific in mind when I made that comment.
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[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1311121639' post='4837718']
[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1311119143' post='4837703']
Iam sorry but I just have to stand up for Java here, I <3 Java its my favorite language, Iam a .NET C# developer at work, but I much prefer to work on my own Java based projects, I dont know why but I just find coding in Java more enjoyable.
[/quote]

Why do you like Java better than C#? I'm not disputing your choice, but I'd be interested to know the reasons behind it.
[/quote]


Ill be the first one to admit that C# has things which Java doesn't come with naturally w/o some third party library and even then C# can do things that I just dont think would be possible in Java (in the way you program, not in producing the said programs they can both build essentially the same thing), and some of these things I find in C # very usefull that I would of really liked to see natively in Java. Also C# works really well if the technologies its intended to work with, such as the whole .NET platform, and in my opinion better (in general) in the business world then Java EE.

Now with that said... Honestly in my humble opinion, C# and all the technologies it comes with tries to hold my hand WAYYYY too much. This might be great for people who don't feel to comfortable behind the wheel, I've heard horror stories of college students taking the Java EE route and having nightmares trying to set up a Java Servlet/JSP Web application, while for everyone using the .NET platform has the simplest time.

and with all the hand holding and some of the higher level programing stuff, I feel like people can miss out on understanding some very important fundamental concepts in the rudimentary architecture of their applications, and I know what Iam doing so I would like to essentially be able to shoot my self in the foot if I feel like it, I dont want C Sharp putting the blanks in the gun for me because they are worried I dont know how to operate it. That and I just prefer how Java was designed overall, and its mobility.

These last statements are by no means me saying C sharp is a bad language, in fact its great! But honestly Id prefer to do my own hobbyist projects with Java.
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Another comment, honestly all this "Language X > Language Y" is stupid, its all a matter of opinion and preference, whatever gets the job done is a GREAT language, and all these languages can essentially get the same things done, so its all about what you need. Same way I prefer to work in java, in the same instance I might not use it to get Task X done, because C++ Might be better, and visa versa sometimes java or C sharp is better for the job then C++,

I remember a LONG time ago I was creating a game in C++ and I had to build some simple tools for the game, guess what language i DIDNT use in that situation, C++, even tho thats what I was building the game in, I knew I could get the same job done much quicker in Java, so thats what I build all my tools with, while the game was actually in C++.

and with all that said Iam going to leave with on possibly controversial statement....
Objective C >> All
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Pure Basic for the world! http://www.purebasic.com.

Seriously though, Java is important in certain circle, eg, Oracle database interface and what not, so there is might be a reason why your friend is into it.
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[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1311137157' post='4837792']
Another comment, honestly all this "Language X > Language Y" is stupid, its all a matter of opinion and preference, whatever gets the job done is a GREAT language, and all these languages can essentially get the same things done, so its all about what you need. Same way I prefer to work in java, in the same instance I might not use it to get Task X done, because C++ Might be better, and visa versa sometimes java or C sharp is better for the job then C++,

I remember a LONG time ago I was creating a game in C++ and I had to build some simple tools for the game, guess what language i DIDNT use in that situation, C++, even tho thats what I was building the game in, I knew I could get the same job done much quicker in Java, so thats what I build all my tools with, while the game was actually in C++.

and with all that said Iam going to leave with on possibly controversial statement....
Objective C >> All
[/quote]

I think there's a strong argument that C# > Java because they are both made to fit the same hole, but C# was pretty much designed to be better than Java.
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[quote name='Tiner' timestamp='1311108768' post='4837617']
My programmer is starting to like java more then c++! What should I do?
[/quote]
Sit down, take a deep breath and then consider all the signs as being coincidential.
I thought one of my friends/programmers was into Java too once, and I thought it might be because everyone experiments with Java in university, right? No big deal, and then we went to a C++ party together, lots of small competitions and design puzzles there. That made him quit the Java thing, and I've never seen him with one of his Java friends since.

Alright just let your friend develop in what he feels most comfortable with. You do respect your differences, right? On the other hand, if your friend is an employee, either make him use C++, establish a small Java project for him or fire him if he doesn't get it.
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