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speciesUnknown

Self set Challenge: 2 month dev cycle

34 posts in this topic

I was thinking of doing something like this recently, since I've had the same problems with "pie in the sky" projects that had vaguely defined goals. Good luck with the project, I can't wait to see what you've made by the deadline. :)
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Good luck!

It's very doable. I do this with Flash games right now, for a living. Have you considered making them instead of downloadable games? You might find you can make quite a bit of money working on your hobby. It's also very satisfying to be able to upload your game to Kongregate / Newgrounds and get thousands (or millions if your game is good) of views, feedback and criticisms. Downloadable games generally aren't as easy to share.
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Not to be the pessimist but your goal is to turn a game in two months but you're settling for a playable prototype? Why not work to a completed game or polished demo? There's a million prototypes out there, far fewer finished games. Personally, I think 100% completion is the most important part for hobbyists.
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I second Church; my last project was a 3-month project in C++ and I actually made a working prototype (in Java) in a few days.
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[quote name='ChurchSkiz' timestamp='1311854231' post='4841537']
Not to be the pessimist but your goal is to turn a game in two months but you're settling for a playable prototype? Why not work to a completed game or polished demo? There's a million prototypes out there, far fewer finished games. Personally, I think 100% completion is the most important part for hobbyists.
[/quote]

I think one of the rapid fire indie talks at GDC talked about this. His point was that having one finished quality game will outshine 50 working prototypes, so you should work toward a finished game rather than a working prototype. I forget who the opposite side of the coin was, but he showed someone who made something like a prototype a day and considered them 'finished' and claimed that all of his 'finished' games were probably less of an accomplishment than Braid simply because they weren't actually finished games.

I tend to agree. Prototypes are only as good as the finished game you make from them.
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I wont be trying to sell the prototype - the whole point of the 2 month dev cycle is to eliminate my tendency to over-engineer everything. I need to be able to turn around a product in 2 months.

I'll no doubt keep a lot of what I do for the next phase (again, 2 months) and that product should be saleable. Bear in mind that I'm starting from scratch in a new language and dev framework. I cant go for a 6 month dev cycle and release something polished because there is a danger that I will fall back into my old routine of working for 18 months on nothing.
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I think 2 months for a complete prototype/concept with fully fleshed out features is a good goal. But, along the lines of ChurchSkiz's thoughts, I think it needs to be followed up by another month or two of good polish and finish work.


Good luck.
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[quote name='speciesUnknown' timestamp='1311864491' post='4841618']
I wont be trying to sell the prototype - the whole point of the 2 month dev cycle is to eliminate my tendency to over-engineer everything. I need to be able to turn around a product in 2 months.

I'll no doubt keep a lot of what I do for the next phase (again, 2 months) and that product should be saleable. Bear in mind that I'm starting from scratch in a new language and dev framework. I cant go for a 6 month dev cycle and release something polished because there is a danger that I will fall back into my old routine of working for 18 months on nothing.
[/quote]

If you have access to it I'd watch Andy Schatz' presentation on his Monaco development cycle. Definitely don't underestimate the time it takes to finish/polish.
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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1311871392' post='4841694']
[quote name='speciesUnknown' timestamp='1311864491' post='4841618']
I wont be trying to sell the prototype - the whole point of the 2 month dev cycle is to eliminate my tendency to over-engineer everything. I need to be able to turn around a product in 2 months.

I'll no doubt keep a lot of what I do for the next phase (again, 2 months) and that product should be saleable. Bear in mind that I'm starting from scratch in a new language and dev framework. I cant go for a 6 month dev cycle and release something polished because there is a danger that I will fall back into my old routine of working for 18 months on nothing.
[/quote]

If you have access to it I'd watch Andy Schatz' presentation on his Monaco development cycle. Definitely don't underestimate the time it takes to finish/polish.
[/quote]

That sounds like a good idea, but, does anybody have a link to this? Googling turns up various older things.

Its important to note that this is not a team project, its a one-man-band thing, and the first prototype wont have a lot of content (mostly it will be a complete "engine" with a single playable demo level).
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[quote name='speciesUnknown' timestamp='1311890493' post='4841872']
That sounds like a good idea, but, does anybody have a link to this? Googling turns up various older things.

Its important to note that this is not a team project, its a one-man-band thing, and the first prototype wont have a lot of content (mostly it will be a complete "engine" with a single playable demo level).
[/quote]

I think it's called, "How to win the IGF in 15 weeks," but I'm not sure if you can find it for free anywhere. I know it's in the GDC vault, but that's not free.
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[quote]His point was that having one finished quality game will outshine 50 working prototypes, so you should work toward a finished game rather than a working prototype.[/quote]
what happens if the 50 prototypes are like minecraft and the finished game is anything else (except perhaps warcraft or cod) :D


[b][url="../../user/110386-speciesunknown/"][color=#B57438][b]@speciesUnknown[/b][/color][/url] [url="../../user/110386-speciesunknown/page__f__3"][img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_images/master/user_popup.png[/img][/url][/b]

So what are you making?
The most important thing is to have the game playable day 1!
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[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1311976575' post='4842320']
[quote]His point was that having one finished quality game will outshine 50 working prototypes, so you should work toward a finished game rather than a working prototype.[/quote]
what happens if the 50 prototypes are like minecraft and the finished game is anything else (except perhaps warcraft or cod) :D


[b][color="#B57438"][b]@speciesUnknown[/b][/color] [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_images/master/user_popup.png[/img][/b]

So what are you making?
The most important thing is to have the game playable day 1!
[/quote]

I'm rushing every aspect of it, so the polish everybody is talking about might be nonexistent, but the idea is that its a mission based vehicle shooter set in cyberspace. Yesterday I implemented the particle system, by expanding the projectile system, so that particles can be physically simulated (or not) as I wish. You can already drive around, and fire the cannon, tonight I'm adding death behaviour to my current "debug NPC" the "two boxes and a cylinder of doom" (they look like a turret sort of).

I started out with a 2d framework which i and some other students build for a 2d game which didn't go anywhere, so playability in the first day wasn't possible. But now I have the projectile system, i should be playable in the next few days. From that point, any "engine" features I implement will be in direct support of gameplay.
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[url="http://anarchistsunited.com/games/propaganda/"]Heres some games[/url] Ive done (excluding work stuff) In total Ive done over 100 so have a good idea of whats required & how to plan
now this statement 'i should be playable in the next few days' is worrying. It should be playable within an hour. Im not joking, it will not be fun or good but at all stages it must be playable

A/ add player
B/ make it moveable
C/ add basic scenery
D/ add an enemy (make it moveable)
E/ add weapons
F/ add it so you can shot enemy
G/ add your particles

I think youve done the first 2, now you should be on step C not step G (or whatever)
Always do the important stuff first
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[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1311982851' post='4842353']
[url="http://anarchistsunited.com/games/propaganda/"]Heres some games[/url] Ive done (excluding work stuff) In total Ive done over 100 so have a good idea of whats required & how to plan
now this statement 'i should be playable in the next few days' is worrying. It should be playable within an hour. Im not joking, it will not be fun or good but at all stages it must be playable

A/ add player
B/ make it moveable
C/ add basic scenery
D/ add an enemy (make it moveable)
E/ add weapons
F/ add it so you can shot enemy
G/ add your particles

I think youve done the first 2, now you should be on step C not step G (or whatever)
Always do the important stuff first
[/quote]

This is similar to the process I use for a 1 week or couple of days dev cycle, but for a 2 month cycle (something ive not done before, to be fair) i've spread these things out and put them in a different order. The main difference is that I create a basic implementation of each thing before the game is playable and then, in the last 3 weeks or so, i go back and change each basic implementation to suit the game. So goes the theory. This theory will be refined as time goes by.
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[quote]So goes the theory. This theory will be refined as time goes by. [/quote]
well thats the theory ;)
bugger theory, results and reality is what you should be concerned with.
OK If I wanted to call your bluff I'l say ok you had this working demo in a week (now polish so what did you do for the next 7 weeks?)
i.e. WHAT iM TRYING TO SAY IS i THINK YOU (sorry caps lock) might be slipping into the overengineering buzz (Ive also been guilty often in the past, thus Im trying to impart my wisdom)
Hell I started a new game on the 24th (its now the 31st) you can play it and all, u could play it day one (*), it may be fun or it may not, hard to say when you make something, just like writing songs.
I can give you a link to this game, (fresh eyes) you can tell me whats bad and that, but can you do the same? i.e. a game doesnt exist as an idea its physically gotta be explored/experienced first by other ppl.
Mate are you truly serious about doing this game in 2 months? cause the idea of sticking it all together in the last ~40% of project time is not a winning solution. This is me as the guy on your shoulder (wisdom) speaking.

(*)a screenshot is not on the above link, well my last 3 things aint on the above link
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[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1312082898' post='4842725']
[quote]So goes the theory. This theory will be refined as time goes by. [/quote]
well thats the theory ;)
bugger theory, results and reality is what you should be concerned with.
OK If I wanted to call your bluff I'l say ok you had this working demo in a week (now polish so what did you do for the next 7 weeks?)
i.e. WHAT iM TRYING TO SAY IS i THINK YOU (sorry caps lock) might be slipping into the overengineering buzz (Ive also been guilty often in the past, thus Im trying to impart my wisdom)
Hell I started a new game on the 24th (its now the 31st) you can play it and all, u could play it day one (*), it may be fun or it may not, hard to say when you make something, just like writing songs.
I can give you a link to this game, (fresh eyes) you can tell me whats bad and that, but can you do the same? i.e. a game doesnt exist as an idea its physically gotta be explored/experienced first by other ppl.
Mate are you truly serious about doing this game in 2 months? cause the idea of sticking it all together in the last ~40% of project time is not a winning solution. This is me as the guy on your shoulder (wisdom) speaking.

(*)a screenshot is not on the above link, well my last 3 things aint on the above link
[/quote]

When you first started out on this rapid development cycle, did you make the game playable in 1 day? Or, did you develop this process much later? I'm entering ludumdare on the 19th, and ill probably take your advice - make the game playable within an hour.

I'm not sure how I could have made this game playable within an hour, or even a day. I started out without any physics or logic at all - it took me a day or so to set up the physics engine I'm using and get a tank to drive around. Then I spend a couple of days on the ballistic system.
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[quote]When you first started out on this rapid development cycle, did you make the game playable in 1 day?[/quote]not sure at the start (its a few years ago) Im not sure exactly when the change came, for work (flash developement) I had to show stuff within the day (this was the catalyst, do it or dont get paid is a great motivator)
Q. do you need physics?
i.e. its not absolutely essential to the game is it! this is what I mean, just get the tank moving when the player presses the key (later on you can flesh it out with semi-true physics or whatever) if you think it will improve the game.
Focus on what is essential to the game first, youve set yourself a tight deadline, thus you have to do this or else whats gonna happen is the deadline will loom and then youre trying to put all the pieces together & youre running into problems, or it doesnt work as you imagined. This will happen mate.
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I was thinking the exact same thing the last few days, and with the exact same deadline(2 months). I think it will help me get focused and drag me out of these eternal unfinished projects. So, good luck to you and me I guess!
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I thought I ought to update this thread now that the 2 months are up.

I didn't manage to get the game idea finished to a worthwhile state; working full time takes too much time out of the day. I'm going to have to slow it down if I plan to get 2 months worth of dev done while still working full time.

Anyway, ill wrap up the game since I started it, and see where I can go from here. Maybe I need to think up a less intense development cycle.
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[quote name='speciesUnknown' timestamp='1314270249' post='4853590']
I thought I ought to update this thread now that the 2 months are up.

I didn't manage to get the game idea finished to a worthwhile state; working full time takes too much time out of the day. I'm going to have to slow it down if I plan to get 2 months worth of dev done while still working full time.

Anyway, ill wrap up the game since I started it, and see where I can go from here. Maybe I need to think up a less intense development cycle.
[/quote]

how far did you get ?
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[quote name='ryan20fun' timestamp='1314274169' post='4853596']
[quote name='speciesUnknown' timestamp='1314270249' post='4853590']
I thought I ought to update this thread now that the 2 months are up.

I didn't manage to get the game idea finished to a worthwhile state; working full time takes too much time out of the day. I'm going to have to slow it down if I plan to get 2 months worth of dev done while still working full time.

Anyway, ill wrap up the game since I started it, and see where I can go from here. Maybe I need to think up a less intense development cycle.
[/quote]

how far did you get ?
[/quote]

I got a tank driving around (with a nice skid steer behaviour) and turrets shooting at you. My ballistics system is pretty good as well. I massively upgraded my component based system, worked out how to use object pooling, and made some minor improvements to my resource loading systems. I simply didn't get to spend as much time as I had hoped - it seems that two months of dev time cannot be compressed into two months worth of spare time. Who'd have thought it [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

So I wont be buying a 360 or paying any apphub subscription yet, at least until I am certain that I can be productive. Ive spent a lot of the 2 months implementing engine behaviour that I needed for the game, rather than any game play programming.
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so basically you didnt work on your game at all :wink:, what you listed were mainly parts of the engine, thats the reason why you didnt finish it, hell you were only perhaps 10% of the way in, if that. Im not rying to sound mean but just realistic.
By coincidence I finished a game yesterday, Ive just gotta name it & upload it to googles web store site.

Mate no doubt youve heard the saying work on the game and not the engine, .... well, its true.
Next time try this (and I cant emphasize this enuf) get it playable on day 1.
Trust me, you do this & you will have a game finished in 2 months
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[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1314485772' post='4854577']
so basically you didnt work on your game at all :wink:, what you listed were mainly parts of the engine, thats the reason why you didnt finish it, hell you were only perhaps 10% of the way in, if that. Im not rying to sound mean but just realistic.
By coincidence I finished a game yesterday, Ive just gotta name it & upload it to googles web store site.

Mate no doubt youve heard the saying work on the game and not the engine, .... well, its true.
Next time try this (and I cant emphasize this enuf) get it playable on day 1.
Trust me, you do this & you will have a game finished in 2 months
[/quote]


I think that the game idea I was trying to implement is of sufficient complexity that i really needed a lot of backing framework - call it engine, API, framework or whatever. The point is, there was a lot more basic ground work required than I had anticipated. I havn't been trying to implement an engine for the sake of the engine, everything I have implemented has been in some way targeted at the game itself, so the old adage "write games not engines" is not relevant here. The game was a 3d vehicle combat game with semi-realistic physics and a stylised renderer - and at the same time, i was trying to implement a theory I've long had about a combination of DoD and component based models.

Anyway, I'm in the process of wrapping up the game functionality to something playable so I can look at more realistic goals, either in terms of time frame or game complexity. Its not been a total loss.
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