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Eckhart

Programming Language

24 posts in this topic

Hello, I've come in search of a non object oriented programming language. Maybe a procedural or imperative language. I have learnt a good deal of C# and XNA, but I hated the classes. I thought it would be much easier and simpler if I could just have my functions all in the same place, but logic and knowledge of OOP told me it wouldn't be good. And so I want to learn something different, Possibly C. I have learnt python in the past, though now my skills are getting rusty xD. I don't care how hard the language is(Preferably easier then assembly though :P), I just want to learn a good one so I can have a solid base for my programming endeavours.

All sorts of feedback appreciated, thanks (:
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I would recommend C. You'll find quite a few discernible differences from C++ beyond the lack of OOP. It's perhaps the most important language I've learned.
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Non object-oriented? Hmm... Depending on the preferred level of difficulty to manage things, I'd say QBASIC or FORTRAN for easy to learn and interpret,
that allow the programmer to do a limited amount of stuff excluding the ability to harm yourself and control the universe.
But aside from perhaps pascal and delphi, they don't look much like our mainstream programming languages of today.
I'd go with C since you already have programming experience, but python is way easier to please than C...
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[quote name='lefthandman' timestamp='1311926420' post='4842028']
I would recommend C. You'll find quite a few discernible differences from C++ beyond the lack of OOP. It's perhaps the most important language I've learned.
[/quote]
Thanks, I think I will use it. Any suggestions on library?

[quote name='SuperVGA' timestamp='1311926457' post='4842029']
Non object-oriented? Hmm... Depending on the preferred level of difficulty to manage things, I'd say QBASIC or FORTRAN for easy to learn and interpret,
that allow the programmer to do a limited amount of stuff excluding the ability to harm yourself and control the universe.
But aside from perhaps pascal and delphi, they don't look much like our mainstream programming languages of today.
I'd go with C since you already have programming experience, but python is way easier to please than C...
[/quote]
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.

[quote name='rip-off' timestamp='1311926753' post='4842032']
Try a functional programming language.

Can you tell us what you hate about classes?
[/quote]
I always end up naming classes stuff like "player functions", "Map functions", "Battle functions", etc. Often I just don't bother with classes until I get too many functions to handle, then I might make one class for functions, then finally more and reformat it. I feel like it defeats the purpose of OOP.

Any examples of a functional programming language? They definitely sound like what I'm looking for. Thanks (:


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[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Any examples of a functional programming language? They definitely sound like what I'm looking for. Thanks (:



[/quote]

You can find a list of functional languages over here : [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_functional_programming_topics"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_functional_programming_topics[/url]

It's in the last section. Haskell and Lisp I believe are most common but I don't know if Lisp isn't too old (supposedly Common Lisp was a revival of it which started in 2000 so might want to check that out). Lisp is multi-paradigm while Haskell is purely functional (I tried it once XD I failed epically so good luck!)
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Well, seeing as quite a few of the functional programming languages seem fairly limited, I think I'll go with C for now. any API suggestions?
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Just learn C with the standard library for now; that's quite enough to be getting on with and there are more than enough concepts in there that will be new to you without confusing things further.
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If you've already used python it may be quicker to just re-acquaint yourself with it. Python will let you do OO, but it doesn't require it.

It has quite a nice games development API and also Python knowledge is useful in the commercial world if you go jobhunting at some point soon.
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[quote name='Katie' timestamp='1311932039' post='4842053']
If you've already used python it may be quicker to just re-acquaint yourself with it. Python will let you do OO, but it doesn't require it.

It has quite a nice games development API and also Python knowledge is useful in the commercial world if you go jobhunting at some point soon.
[/quote]

Haha... Python is a scripting language. Try making a fully networked MMO with it. It'll be horrible. I mean, I love python, but it's not powerful enough for a full game.
For Graphics API I'm probably going to use OpenGL.

Thanks for all the advice :D
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[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311932999' post='4842063']
Haha... Python is a scripting language. Try making a fully networked MMO with it. It'll be horrible. I mean, I love python, but it's not powerful enough for a full game.
[/quote]

You mean like [url="http://www.eveonline.com"]Eve[/url]? (Hint: written in python)

Part of learning a language is learning the idioms associated with that language. Changing languages isn't going to fix your inability to design your programs well.
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[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311932999' post='4842063']

Haha... Python is a scripting language. Try making a fully networked MMO with it. It'll be horrible.
[/quote]

not much worse than coding the entire thing in C with "player functions" everywhere.
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Use C++ with DirectX or SDL and just leave out the OO stuff. This is what I did for my first few games. C++ can be used from a procedural standpoint without touching OO concepts. I'm not sure what kind of modern day support you'd get from using C as most modern APIs would write for C++. Also, if you get to the point where you think OO might make sense, you can "convert" without having to learn a new language or switch APIs.
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I have to agree with Serapth

Reading your comments it looks more like a lack of programming skills from your side, rather than a problem with the languages you're using, and switching languages will not help you in your cause since bad programming practices will stick with you no matter which language you choose

I advise you to take some kind of programming course (could be online, as long as it's decent), I know my coding style improved from the moment I started taking actual programming classes next to being self-taught

Instead of trying to blame it on the language, try to look into the aspects which you're not comfortable with yet and try to improve yourself, otherwise you can forget finishing any project no matter the size

Also, I would advise you to reconsider doing an MMO, I find it strange that even though there are so many threads and guides explaining exactly in detail why you [b]shouldn't [/b]attempt an MMO, there are still new people on these boards every day who want to make one
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[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]

Yes, well I think he referred to FORTRAN (1953) and BASIC ([font="sans-serif"][size="2"]1964, Given QBasic is rather new, from 1991) suggestions i came up with.[/size][/font]
[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]Obviously, old does not mean outdated. That goes for several languages. Although if regular, old fashioned Basic wasn't[/size][/font]
[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]"Outdated" i wouldn't think it so much fun to develop in. ... But that's a [/size][/font][font=sans-serif][size=2]nostalgic [/size][/font][font=sans-serif][size=2]hobby thing.[/size][/font]

[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]EDIT: I was first impressed at the early foundation of LISP, although Wikipedia tells me it's 1958. That's still earlier than what i would've guessed, though. :)[/size][/font]
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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]

You must be in this weird catch-22 situation, where you don't want people to upvote your reputation, no? ;)
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[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1311949767' post='4842160']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]

You must be in this weird catch-22 situation, where you don't want people to upvote your reputation, no? ;)
[/quote]

Hehe, -so do you! [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img] (256 at the time of writing)
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[quote name='SuperVGA' timestamp='1311950020' post='4842163']
[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1311949767' post='4842160']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]

You must be in this weird catch-22 situation, where you don't want people to upvote your reputation, no? ;)
[/quote]

Hehe, -so do you! [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img] (256 at the time of writing)
[/quote]

Haha, how weirdly karmic. I am totally one of those guys that watches the car odometer roll over, so yeah. Funny how being a programmer does wire you to see all the powers of 2.
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[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311932999' post='4842063']
[quote name='Katie' timestamp='1311932039' post='4842053']
If you've already used python it may be quicker to just re-acquaint yourself with it. Python will let you do OO, but it doesn't require it.

It has quite a nice games development API and also Python knowledge is useful in the commercial world if you go jobhunting at some point soon.
[/quote]

Haha... Python is a scripting language. Try making a fully networked MMO with it. It'll be horrible. I mean, I love python, but it's not powerful enough for a full game.
For Graphics API I'm probably going to use OpenGL.

Thanks for all the advice :D
[/quote]

Sorry man but thats just untrue. Firstly, Python is a fully functioning PROGRAMMING language. Its not just for scripting. It has pretty much all of the features that a typical programming language does. When people say that a language is not "powerful" enough, I usually doubt that they have even began to take the language in question anywhere close to its limits as far as speed. That word "powerful" is thrown around alot by people who have heard others say it. Maybe Im wrong and youre a veteran who has seen Python fail first hand during using it for games. In my experience, its more than enough for many indie developers to achieve what they want. The only things I can see being a downside are maybe a weak game dev community using it, but I dont even know if thats true,
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[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]Eve Online is built on top of Python, its a MMO with over 300k users. I think they do just fine and they have a new MMO coming out soon, its a FPS MMO called Dust 514, i think they are also using Python for their back end. Scripting languages are more powerful than many modern [/size][/font][size="2"]language [/size][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]now. LuaJit 2.0 gives C (JIT variant of Lua) a run for its money and many MMOs use a scripting back end for their logic, since they are dynamic high level GC languages, it's just much easier to program in. I'm sure they customize the [/size][/font][size="2"]language [/size][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]to their needs, with custom allocators , multithreading and transparent net migration.[/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font]

[size="2"]If you want to learn programming for the first time, I suggest [/size]Python[size="2"] or Lua then migrate to C# or Java then lastly if you really want too C++ / C. Becoming a good programmer isn't so much the [/size]language [size="2"]but the broad [/size]depth[size="2"] of knowledge of [/size]algorithms[size="2"], micro and macro coding structure and the attentive [/size]ability[size="2"] to formalize codified [/size]solutions[size="2"] to a given problem (in whatever [/size]language [size="2"]of your choice).[/size]
[size="2"]
[/size][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]Good Luck![/size][/font]
[size="2"]
[/size][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]-ddn[/size][/font]
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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]

I agree with what your saying. However, I remember having trouble truly grasping OO techniques. It wasn't until I started doing more procedural coding that I could implement OO properly. Had I "bore down" with OO I probably would have gotten bored and stopped programming all together.

Make games however you can with whatever you can. Worry about doing it correctly later. In his case, if it helps him to switch to an easier language or a procedural language, I think it makes sense.
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This is really interesting. I always found OO to just be more intuitive. Its so easy to relate to real world examples, and easy to organize code. When I first learned to program years ago, I remember reading that the classes were like nouns, and methods were like verbs. So you have a class called enemy... and it needs to be able to shoot, so you make a method called shoot. Then something like enemy.shoot() was just so clear.

Then again my first language was Python so I was introduced to OO right away, I learned C way later. I guess what you begin with as well as the way you think has a huge impact.
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[quote name='Telastyn' timestamp='1311945144' post='4842129']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311932999' post='4842063']
Haha... Python is a scripting language. Try making a fully networked MMO with it. It'll be horrible. I mean, I love python, but it's not powerful enough for a full game.
[/quote]

You mean like [url="http://www.eveonline.com"]Eve[/url]? (Hint: written in python)

Part of learning a language is learning the idioms associated with that language. Changing languages isn't going to fix your inability to design your programs well.
[/quote]
I'm impressed. I had no idea that you could do something of that caliber with Python. I remember reading on Pygame some time ago that the biggest game that was being made with it was a little indie shooter or something, Though that could've been me misreading it or maybe Pygame is like that but other APIs aren't. Perhaps I'll reconsider Python and just do it right.


[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1311946343' post='4842135']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
[quote name='rip-off' timestamp='1311926753' post='4842032']
Try a functional programming language.

Can you tell us what you hate about classes?
[/quote]
I always end up naming classes stuff like "player functions", "Map functions", "Battle functions", etc. Often I just don't bother with classes until I get too many functions to handle, then I might make one class for functions, then finally more and reformat it. I feel like it defeats the purpose of OOP.

Any examples of a functional programming language? They definitely sound like what I'm looking for. Thanks (:
[/quote]

Moving to C isn't going to help you, you could program C# in pretty much 100% procedural style if you wanted, it would be pretty stupid, but you could do it. Frankly your description just illustrates you didn't learn enough about programming and went with a bad design. You are going to encounter the same problem in C. Your examples have ZERO to do with object oriented programming, as you've used them, classes are no different than C style structs.

I'm not telling you not to switch languages, I am just informing you, your problem with the language is your lack of ability, not the language. That problem is going to go with you from language to language until you actually take the time to learn how to program.

As to functional programming languages, LISP is the granddaddy of functional programming languages, Erlang and Scheme are two slightly more modern implementations and F# is one of the newest. Additionally, C# has gotten enough language extensions, it could effectively be considered a functional language as of C#4.

I wish I learned functional programming earlier in my career, as now its like reading Greek to me. That said, it's a right bitch to wrap your head around functional code.

Here for example is some F# code taken from Wikipedia
[font="monospace,"][color="#0066CC"][b]let[/b][/color] [color="#0066CC"][b]rec[/b][/color] factorial n [color="#A52A2A"]=[/color] [color="#0066CC"][b]match[/b][/color] n [color="#0066CC"][b]with[/b][/color] | [color="#CC66CC"]0[/color] [color="#A52A2A"]->[/color] [color="#CC66CC"]1[/color] | _ [color="#A52A2A"]->[/color] n [color="#A52A2A"]*[/color] factorial [color="#66CC66"]([/color]n [color="#A52A2A"]-[/color] [color="#CC66CC"]1[/color][color="#66CC66"])[/color][/font]
[/quote]
Functional programming seems a bit crazy, but maybe I'll try to learn it when get a bit more serious into programming.
As for design, would learning Python very well with correct design be helpful, or would I need to learn it right lower down?


[quote name='Radikalizm' timestamp='1311947280' post='4842144']
I have to agree with Serapth

Reading your comments it looks more like a lack of programming skills from your side, rather than a problem with the languages you're using, and switching languages will not help you in your cause since bad programming practices will stick with you no matter which language you choose

I advise you to take some kind of programming course (could be online, as long as it's decent), I know my coding style improved from the moment I started taking actual programming classes next to being self-taught

Instead of trying to blame it on the language, try to look into the aspects which you're not comfortable with yet and try to improve yourself, otherwise you can forget finishing any project no matter the size

Also, I would advise you to reconsider doing an MMO, I find it strange that even though there are so many threads and guides explaining exactly in detail why you [b]shouldn't [/b]attempt an MMO, there are still new people on these boards every day who want to make one
[/quote]
Yeah, I suppose I should just learn it right. I'm looking at a C tutorial that was recommended by this kid who is a very good programmer, and understands the theory more than anyone else I've really talked to, so that should teach me some theory behind it. As for the MMO, I'm not making an MMO, it was just an example. I think I'm just going to mess with a language for a while then maybe make a little RTS or turn based game(think CIV IV).


[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1311947867' post='4842147']
[quote name='Eckhart' timestamp='1311929023' post='4842038']
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to bother with old, somewhat defunct languages. I understand C will be a challenge, but I'm up for it.
[/quote]
Heh, the C language, 1968. LISP: 1952. C++: 1990s. C#: early 21st century.

Design techniques are orthogonal to implementation languages. Switching implementation languages will not change your design technique. A craftsman does not blame his hammer when his two-legged stool will not stand up.
[/quote]
Yeah, I understand that it's old but I mean FORTRAN and BASIC are both almost defunct. If I had made an awesome system in FORTRAN, I probably wouldn't be able to find someone else who knew FORTRAN and wanted to work with me on the project I'd started. With C, it's not quite the case as if you know C++ I hear it's fairly easy to learn, and because C is still used by many programmers today.
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