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cukzor

Unlimited Detail Real-Time Rendering Technology

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Hello, ill make things fast. I've noticed the new video that got up yesterday and it got me thinking if it's even possible.

Are there technological limitations like reflections,refractions,animations?
Hardware limitations? RAM,cpu?

I think its quite possible that we have a future of gaming.
Please post your comments and toughts.

Video:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4[/url]

Cheers, Anže

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Previous topics:
[url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/557528-unlimited-detail/"]http://www.gamedev.n...limited-detail/[/url]
[url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/599083-unlimited-detail-technology/"]http://www.gamedev.n...ail-technology/[/url]

It's a point-cloud renderer, like a voxel renderer, but slightly different.

The interesting features are:
1) some kind of acceleration structure for fast ray queries through the point-cloud data.
2) some kind of storage format for efficiently storing large amounts of point-cloud data, maybe.

#1 hopefully has an animated and non-animated version.
#2 is very dubious, as they're scenes are all instanced models which don't need highly efficient storage.

That's really it. He's made a good acceleration structure, and is very secretive about it because once he releases it, everyone else will copy and improve upon this structure that he's been working on in secret for 16 years and he'll no longer be special. I'm quite doubtful that it's really that fancy - probably a few obvious tricks combined... which they'll probably patent and make everyone hate them.



I really just can't get past the fact that the CEO always sounds like a complete condescending douchbag though...

...And I'm pissed they scammed $2M out of the government... [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img][img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]

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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1312279706' post='4843493']
I really just can't get past the fact that the CEO always sounds like a complete condescending douchbag though...
[/quote]

I feel that you only think that because you already know a lot about the tech and how tech works in graphics. He seems to just be trying to dumb down the terminology for potential investors etc.




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It's time for unlimited detail yet again!
I love the technology. By sure, I have a lot to learn from those guys because 1 year later they're still running the marketing pretty well!
We still don't have any measure of complexity, nor knowledge of hardware requirements. They claim they can make it run at 20 fps on software... who does even care. With this shading complexity, I don't see much of a problem. They improved it only slightly WRT the old video. We still know nothing about the workflow, nor the amount of preprocessing. What have we got?

Multiple different meshes! Ok, the LODding is admittedly awesome. Point taken. They are instanced a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. Especially apparent for grass.
Improved shading capability: they are beating [b]me [/b]hands down!
?

Anyway, I talked to a man in the GIS sector who claimed to be able to mangle a 5 Billion point dataset "with minor sweat"... I suppose he could say something about working with point-cloud representation as they scan whole valleys as daily routine!

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[quote name='CRYP7IK' timestamp='1312282319' post='4843500']I feel that you only think that because you already know a lot about the tech and how tech works in graphics. He seems to just be trying to dumb down the terminology for potential investors etc.[/quote]The extreme dumbing down of the content doesn't help, but, it's mostly because he speaks in a really sensationalist, arrogant and condescending [i]tone[/i], rather than the [i]content [/i]of what he's saying, that makes me cringe away from the douchebaggery.

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I highly doubt this is the future of gaming. He showed no animations at all. If animating point clouds was possible he would have had something to show for it, even if it looked crappy.


L. Spiro

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Voxel based worlds are powerful, might be the next "big" thing, not in terms of technology which's been around for like 20 years. In terms of "newness" in the public's eye. Voxel are sufficiently different enough to "wow" the common public, enough so to let a game stand out from the pack.. Their demo is highly lacking but that doesn't detract from what can be done with voxels. Voxel based world with normal mapping u could have extremely detailed looking worlds with dynamic properties.

-ddn

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Like many others have said over the years this project has been around, I'll believe when I see it working on my desktop computer or console, so far they have only shown a couple of screenshots and videos which would not be all that hard to fake, specially if they get them million dollar investments.

So far it could all be just a smoke screen, however I do hope its real and hits the market soon, that way videogame companies would finally stop wasting millions of dollars in squeezing a few more polygons and perhaps start spending some of that on actually original and fun games... I'm pretty sick of poly count being a selling point for games that ultimately have nothing else to show for.

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[quote name='NEXUSKill' timestamp='1312311053' post='4843707']

So far it could all be just a smoke screen, however I do hope its real and hits the market soon, that way videogame companies would finally stop wasting millions of dollars in squeezing a few more polygons and perhaps start spending some of that on actually original and fun games... I'm pretty sick of poly count being a selling point for games that ultimately have nothing else to show for.

[/quote]

So not only is this technology so awesome that it blows all existing graphics tech out of the water, it will also somehow make games more "original and fun" because they don't have polygons? Amazing! Someone needs to invest billions into this stuff.

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[quote name='MJP' timestamp='1312311559' post='4843713']
So not only is this technology so awesome that it blows all existing graphics tech out of the water, it will also somehow make games more "original and fun" because they don't have polygons? Amazing! Someone needs to invest billions into this stuff.
[/quote]


jajaja, you twisted my words quite a bit there, it was intended as an ironic joke, I don't really believe that this, if true, would solve the entire graphics aspect, I'm just jaded of mainstream game industry focusing full force on graphics and so often neglecting other (personally) more important aspects of a game.

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[quote name='NEXUSKill' timestamp='1312311053' post='4843707']so far they have only shown a couple of screenshots and videos which would not be all that hard to fake, specially if they get them million dollar investments.[/quote][s]Wait. Is that a supposition?[/s]

Wow, I cannot believe this. It seems like the dude has really secured a couple of million AUS dollars for this.... [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img]

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[quote name='YogurtEmperor' timestamp='1312295660' post='4843617']
I highly doubt this is the future of gaming. He showed no animations at all. If animating point clouds was possible he would have had something to show for it, even if it looked crappy.


L. Spiro
[/quote]

That's a good point.

Also, I can be wrong of course, but with my limited knowledge I cannot imagine how can you effectively store such a detailed world definition. Wouldn't it mean a game on 10 blu-ray discs, taking you back to the times when you had to swap your floppy discs in the middle of a game, or CDs like for example in the 5 CDs Baldur's Gate?
It probably doesn't have textures as it doesn't need them, so that's quite some GBs down. But a dirt with 3D models of every grain?

And to me personaly, all that mentions of "we are not artists so excuse the repetetive graphics" sounds just like evasion. It wouldn't be a problem to hire an artist to make a really great video, would it? If - if it was POSSIBLE at all.
It's a difference to have
- a world looking a bit like Minecraft and fill it with instanced geometry of 5 different rocks and 2 different trees,
or
- a real game world with interesting scenery.

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It seems that [b]unlimited [/b]and [b]unique [/b]do not work well together.
Maybe when they will when they discover unlimited ram and unlimited drive space.
Another alternative that i think they should try is unlimited compression.
Nice tabloid title they used there tho :).

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[quote name='Overdrive' timestamp='1312556677' post='4845036']
Another alternative that i think they should try is unlimited compression.
[/quote]

They can use hashing. You can hash as many GBs as you want into just 64 bits, that's an ultimate compression :D

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[quote name='Krohm' timestamp='1312350237' post='4843928']
[quote name='NEXUSKill' timestamp='1312311053' post='4843707']so far they have only shown a couple of screenshots and videos which would not be all that hard to fake, specially if they get them million dollar investments.[/quote][s]Wait. Is that a supposition?[/s]

Wow, I cannot believe this. It seems like the dude has really secured a couple of million AUS dollars for this.... [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img]
[/quote]
The secret to success is to pretend you've already achieved it and "sell" the secret to others ;)


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I've seen lots of people complaining about not having animation.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Quipster99#p/u/2/l3Sw3dnu8q8

This is their old youtube account. They have a video of animation using their point-cloud technology. It's only a proof-of-concept, and several years old at that. They claimed in an interview (can't find it right now, will post it if I do) that they didn't want to show animation on the new video because although they HAVE a working animation system, it's not yet 100% ready. The new video also shows very poor shadows (if you watch the old videos they've improved however), and in that same interview they said they've already greatly improved the shadows.

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[quote name='Atrensis' timestamp='1312738975' post='4845844']
I've seen lots of people complaining about not having animation.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/Quipster99#p/u/2/l3Sw3dnu8q8"]http://www.youtube.c...u/2/l3Sw3dnu8q8[/url]

This is their old youtube account. They have a video of animation using their point-cloud technology.
[/quote]

I don't see any animations in that video, except for when they show real games like Arma 2.

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[quote name='Atrensis' timestamp='1312738975' post='4845844']
I've seen lots of people complaining about not having animation.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/Quipster99#p/u/2/l3Sw3dnu8q8"]http://www.youtube.c...u/2/l3Sw3dnu8q8[/url]

This is their old youtube account. They have a video of animation using their point-cloud technology. It's only a proof-of-concept, and several years old at that. They claimed in an interview (can't find it right now, will post it if I do) that they didn't want to show animation on the new video because although they HAVE a working animation system, it's not yet 100% ready. The new video also shows very poor shadows (if you watch the old videos they've improved however), and in that same interview they said they've already greatly improved the shadows.
[/quote]

I think you meant to link this video, since the one you linked contains nothing animated apart from real games: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8A4bsfKH8"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cF8A4bsfKH8[/url]

The issue with this form of animation is it's frame animation (basically the only animation possible with point cloud data) and is a fantastic example of why animation does not work in a point-cloud environment.

They need to store each of the frames in memory and swap them on demand. Given how much they are likely stressing their hardware just with the primitive demos they're showing, with extreme amounts of instanced geometry and all that, imagine having to store hundreds of frames for a single animated model. Then imagine 2 models, or 3, or heaven forbid 10? There's just not enough memory for it.

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[quote name='Flimflam' timestamp='1312861213' post='4846511']
The issue with this form of animation is it's frame animation (basically the only animation possible with point cloud data) and is a fantastic example of why animation does not work in a point-cloud environment.
[/quote]

This guy says he has a skinned animation: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl6PE_n6zTk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Tl6PE_n6zTk[/url]

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