On 8/5/2011 at 6:20 AM, Serapth said:

I still don't hold your opinion regarding the capacity of the non-educated. Some of the best programmers in the industry have no degrees. Even more to the point, I am not a real estate developer but I did manage to construct my unfinished basement to a near to professional level, entirely self taught. A pro might be a bit better and would be a hell of a lot faster, but reality is I did manage to learn the skills and got the job done. The same can be applied to development.

You may be happy with your work, and perhaps rightly so, but that doesn't mean someone else is ready to pay you to do the same for them. And they certainly wouldn't hire you to design a house or a neighborhood, based on that good work. My point was simply that, while having innate talent and self taught skill are great for a lot of things, to be a professional, you should also have appropriate training. And in fact, when it comes to taking action, it's the first order of business.

Even if a university doesn't end up having a single thing to teach someone, at least the process of earning the degree helps to both ensure and prove that they have the knowledge and skills associated with it. This principle seems obvious when it comes to building houses. It's just as true of software, if not as obvious.

It's certainly possible that some of the best programmers in the industry have no degree, but they would be the extreme minority exception to the rule, and basing decisions on their circumstances and history would be a mistake. Sometimes people who are perceived as the "best programmers" are really just specialists in specific techniques or pieces of technology, or have a particular talent for solving technical problems quickly, but often lack the exact skills and theoretical background necessary to make large complex projects, involving lots of people, successful.

On the topic of learning for yourself before you go to school, I have nothing against that. However, as you've already hinted at, anyone can learn to program with C++, but unless you have the background of a software engineer, you're unlikely to be using it in a way that is really beneficial. So I wouldn't put a ton of emphasis on trying to teach yourself first.

Again, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, all this is driven by what your goals are. I hope my thoughts can be helpful to those thinking about trying to get into the industry.

On 8/5/2011 at 11:56 PM, kunos said:

honestly the idea that a degree is a prerequisite to being a good game programmer or programmer is just ridiculous... there are so many examples out there that prove this idea wrong that it isn't even worth considering.

But the idea that you should get one if you want a job is not.

Nor is the idea that computer science and software engineering entail a lot more which an engineering manager may find valuable than just being a good programmer, or the idea that someone with skill can become better with training and a wider background, etc.

On 8/5/2011 at 11:56 PM, kunos said:

having said that.. the odds that somebody who has the need to post on a forum "what I should do?" will find his own way through game programming without guidance are pretty low..

As it is for just about anyone else who hasn't done it before.

But the point is that if you want a hiring manager to seriously consider you, it's a good idea to show up with the minimum requirements. And in my experience industry interviewers don't tend to give personal and small indie projects a lot of weight, in terms of viewing them as relevant experience, because they consider the process to be too different. In fact, when it comes to the intricacies specific to video games, it seems like many of them would almost rather you didn't think you already knew what you were doing. (YMMV, of course)

We can acknowledge all the degreeless programmers we want, but that won't help you get a job. Unless of course you happen to be set apart by actually having a degree or something.