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Hp is useless in rpgs. Damage is all that matters.

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Hi i always noted that in all rpgs glasscannon characters are always stronger than any other character. This forces players into mindlessly putting all points in str.

1) A damage dealer is a better farmer. He can kill faster get more gold, items, exp. If a game doesnt have exponential xp requirements then the glasscannon will have twice the level of a tank, thus more hp.

2) A glasscannon has unlimited hp: People always attack the nearest target, a glasscannon character can just stand at the back in team fights, hide in a location that prevents the enemy from spotting them, or kite the enemy with ranged attacks.Extra survivability is useless when you can just potion spam to recover full hp, or never take damage because you are ranged character. In some games tanks can still die in 1 hit from instant death, petrify, etc.

3) A damage dealer is a healer. For example you kill tryndamere in 0.35 sec with your instant cast no global cooldown leblanc macro. congratz you just [s]healed[/s] / prevented 17.000 damage when soraka can only heal 300 every 10 sec.


How can you tackle this problem in your rpg ?
1) How can you make hp meaningfull ?

2) I wanted to make hp stronger than damage but i havent found a way. i tried increasing the hp gained per stamina stat but battles had the same result !!!

Glasscannon : 500 stamina, 500 str.
Tank : 700 stamina, 300 str.

Example 1: 1 str causes 1 damage.
1 stamina grants 10 hp.

glasscannon(500.0,500.0) wins Tank(700.0,300) with 769.9998319149017 / 5000.0 hp ( 15.399996337890625% ) in 94 attacks.

Example 2: 1 str causes 1 damage.
1 stamina grants 1000 hp.
Result:

glasscannon(500.0,500.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) wins Tank(700.0,300.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) with 79969.98330950737 / 500000.0 hp ( 15.993996874999999% ) in 9334 attacks.

Is this strange? no matter how you "favor" hp stat, the result of the battle wont change !!! Because the tank will still deal less overall damage, and cant match against the glasscannon.

Are we forced to live in 1/1 hp world ? where hp is useless ? how can i fix this with a linear damage formula ? Do i make hp deal damage as well ?

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Hi i always noted that in all rpgs glasscannon characters are always stronger than any other character. This forces players into mindlessly putting all points in str.

1) A damage dealer is a better farmer. He can kill faster get more gold, items, exp. If a game doesnt have exponential xp requirements then the glasscannon will have twice the level of a tank, thus more hp.


[color="#ff0000"]Then implement a design that counteracts this. If it's like that, you've made a system where your enemies aren't harmful enough to make a glass cannon worry about health at all.
[color="#ff0000"]
2) A glasscannon has unlimited hp: People always attack the nearest target, a glasscannon character can just stand at the back in team fights, hide in a location that prevents the enemy from spotting them, or kite the enemy with ranged attacks.Extra survivability is useless when you can just potion spam to recover full hp, or never take damage because you are ranged character. In some games tanks can still die in 1 hit from instant death, petrify, etc.

[color="#ff0000"]Since when do people always attack the nearest target? What if the game is not MapleStory and has no potions? What if there is no position in the game where no one can ever spot you ever? What if a melee character...now stay with me here...WALKS UP to a ranged character and attacks them? RPGs where you get 1-shotted regardless of your health are a lost cause.

3) A damage dealer is a healer. For example you kill tryndamere in 0.35 sec with your instant cast no global cooldown leblanc macro. congratz you just [s]healed[/s] / prevented 17.000 damage when soraka can only heal 300 every 10 sec.


[color="#ff0000"]I've played League of Legends a bit, but I still don't know what LeBlanc's ultimate does, so I don't really understand.

How can you tackle this problem in your rpg ?
1) How can you make hp meaningfull ?


[color="#ff0000"]Force enemies to attack you? Provide higher damage reduction based on the stat that gives maximum health? Think?

2) I wanted to make hp stronger than damage but i havent found a way. i tried increasing the hp gained per stamina stat but battles had the same result !!!

[color="#ff0000"]Maybe implement higher values so you have a wider range of possibilities? Such as 14 health and 10 damage or ... something other than 1 str = 1 damage and 1 stamina = 1 health..? Where is attack speed in your equation?

Glasscannon : 500 stamina, 500 str.
Tank : 700 stamina, 300 str.

Example 1: 1 str causes 1 damage.
1 stamina grants 10 hp.

glasscannon(500.0,500.0) wins Tank(700.0,300) with 769.9998319149017 / 5000.0 hp ( 15.399996337890625% ) in 94 attacks.

Example 2: 1 str causes 1 damage.
1 stamina grants 1000 hp.
Result:

glasscannon(500.0,500.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) wins Tank(700.0,300.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) with 79969.98330950737 / 500000.0 hp ( 15.993996874999999% ) in 9334 attacks.

Is this strange? no matter how you "favor" hp stat, the result of the battle wont change !!! Because the tank will still deal less overall damage, and cant match against the glasscannon.

[color="#ff0000"]Their roles are not the same. Tanks aren't meant for dealing damage, they are meant for absorbing damage. Like I said above, if you change it from 1 HP/DMG per stat point, then you would get different results...also, if you're not in a total 1-on-1-PvP game, then tanks will have a different role. Leave the DPS to the glass cannon and make sure they don't die?

Are we forced to live in 1/1 hp world ? where hp is useless ? how can i fix this with a linear damage formula ? Do i make hp deal damage as well ?



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1) If i increase monster damage or monster health to make it hard for glass cannons, then i would make it even harder for tanks because a glass cannon can kill enemies faster thus prevent all future damage that he would have taken. It would work if enemies could damage you even after they die until battle ends.
3) leblanc is a mage, and every mage in lol 1shots enemy regardless of health in 0.17 seconds ( i use auto-hotkey macro = skillz).

Tanks aren't meant for dealing damage, they are meant for absorbing damage[/quote]
From that point of view you are right. They become "better at absorbing damage" but are useless for all other reasons. So a party will need only 1 tank and rest of players will be glasscannons.

However, a tank hp stat is depletable, it is a stat that decreases when he takes damage, and becomes useless over a long period of time. A tank with 9999 hp = a tank with 500 hp and a healer. A tank cant help the party, he just breathes.

Imagine if damage was depletable, the damage dealers would lose str permantly when they attack a target and afterwords they would cause 0 damage.But that wouldnt be a fun game.

My idea of tank is to be "Tanky dps". it deals less damage but has much more hp than a glasscannon.

So from what i understand with linear damage formula it is impossible to make hp stronger than damage. The winner of fight is always the one who has 50% stamina, 50% strength. But this sucks because you don't give the player choise, they can just min-max.

Solutions :
a) Exponential hp. Hp increase exponentially more the bigger your stamina percent is(stat distribution).
lets say hp is based on level:
10 hp per level
level 100 player.
30% stamina = 3000 hp.
50% stamina = 6000 hp.
70% stamina = 12000 hp.
90% stamina = 24000 hp.

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I'm not sure if this is rant against League of Legend or games in general, but in League of Legends, tanks are tanks because of their disable abilities, not their HP pool. If the enemy targets the guy with the most HP/armor willingly, then they are bad. It's not a damage formula issue.

Also, no matter how you will tweak the HP formulas, there will always be an optimum point given by the formula :

Power = DPS * Durability

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Perhaps you should lower damage levels if you are having people be one shot?

I think there is flawed design that isn't just "hp is useless". If that is the way the game is meant to be played, glad I passed on it.

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@Tiblanc :
I'm not sure if this is rant against League of Legend or games in general[/Quote]
this applies to all games :
wow : in battlegrounds you can pvp with 0 resilience with pve gear. who cares if you die in 1 hit ? they die that fast too.
torchlight: enemies in hard deal 1200 instant ranged dmg when you have 900 hp. you are supposed to mindlessly grind until lv 99.
disgaia: all enemies are higher level and kill you in 1-2 hits.
I will be suprised to find a game this doesnt happen. Tell me a single game that you putted stat points into stamina !!!

Its like they saying "become a glasscannon like everyone else or die dealing 0 dmg". So you can choose deal 0 dmg and die in 1 hit or deal 9999 dmg and die in 1 hit.

In League of Legends, tanks are tanks because of their disable abilities[/Quote]
So fiddlesticks, malzahar, , leblanc, annie is a tank because she has 1 stun, and 1 aoe stun. I guess that explains why they have less deaths in games.

@Caldenfor
you should lower damage levels if you are having people be one shot[/Quote]
ok you are right you can reduce the damage levels to avoid this phenomenon but the outcome of the battle in 1vs1 wont change, instead of tanks dying in 1 hit, they will die in 20 hits, without a way to prevent their unevitable death, since you reduce the tank damage as well with this change.

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I think you do not understand tanking at all. The main role of a tank is to concentrate all the threat and be the only one who take damage in the party. He usually have a lot of hp only because he has to live enough to let the other kills all the enemy, but you can also have a tank with a very large evasion or with magical shields or abilities. A tank which isn't able to maintain the threat of the enemies may have a lot of hp and still be completely useless.

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@Tiblanc :
I'm not sure if this is rant against League of Legend or games in general

this applies to all games :
wow : in battlegrounds you can pvp with 0 resilience with pve gear. who cares if you die in 1 hit ? they die that fast too.
torchlight: enemies in hard deal 1200 instant ranged dmg when you have 900 hp. you are supposed to mindlessly grind until lv 99.
disgaia: all enemies are higher level and kill you in 1-2 hits.
I will be suprised to find a game this doesnt happen. Tell me a single game that you putted stat points into stamina !!!

Its like they saying "become a glasscannon like everyone else or die dealing 0 dmg". So you can choose deal 0 dmg and die in 1 hit or deal 9999 dmg and die in 1 hit.

In League of Legends, tanks are tanks because of their disable abilities[/Quote]
So fiddlesticks, malzahar, , leblanc, annie is a tank because she has 1 stun, and 1 aoe stun. I guess that explains why they have less deaths in games.

@Caldenfor
you should lower damage levels if you are having people be one shot[/Quote]
ok you are right you can reduce the damage levels to avoid this phenomenon but the outcome of the battle in 1vs1 wont change, instead of tanks dying in 1 hit, they will die in 20 hits, without a way to prevent their unevitable death, since you reduce the tank damage as well with this change.
[/quote]

Well, if you lower the power curve of 1-50 so level 50s don't become overly dominate, fights won't end as you describe as damage done will not get out of control.

The next step is to develop your game so that if a melee gets into melee range of a caster, it interrupts/hampers the caster to the point that the melee can compete. Numbers aren't everything. There are multiple variables in a fight that numbers can't calculate. Tactics/strategies must be employed by players to know their strengths and weaknesses and to put themselves into the best position that they could be in. Why stand at range and let a caster continuously unload on you? Make them feel the pain.

Also, you can't purely design on a 1v1 level. It needs to have some balance, but in a PVP game I expect there to be much more than just duels.

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I'm going HP-less. Each body has several regions with values, for example, to how quickly a limb/part will bleed if cut per second. Each body has a blood value given their relative size of the body. So, technically, there is a finite stat that could be construed as HP but not all attacks are equal. You can disable a limb with a blunt instrument rather than inflicting HP damage. Also, a character will bleed out much more quickly with a neck wound rather than a paper cut as well. :wink:

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@Tiblanc :
I'm not sure if this is rant against League of Legend or games in general

this applies to all games :
wow : in battlegrounds you can pvp with 0 resilience with pve gear. who cares if you die in 1 hit ? they die that fast too.
torchlight: enemies in hard deal 1200 instant ranged dmg when you have 900 hp. you are supposed to mindlessly grind until lv 99.
disgaia: all enemies are higher level and kill you in 1-2 hits.
I will be suprised to find a game this doesnt happen. Tell me a single game that you putted stat points into stamina !!!

Its like they saying "become a glasscannon like everyone else or die dealing 0 dmg". So you can choose deal 0 dmg and die in 1 hit or deal 9999 dmg and die in 1 hit.
[/quote]

That's because it's impossible to properly balance the choice between offense and defense in games where you have a variable number of units at any given point. You can make them equal in worth so a 1v1 remains balanced, but when you are in a team battle, investing in defense is weaker because it does not contribute unless they target you. In this case, investing in offense is better since it always contributes. If you make defense worth more to balance it for team battles, 1v1 become unbalanced because tanky builds can absorb a lot more damage.

As for dieing in 1 hit, it's there to create difficulty in games where you cannot create difficulty other than spiking the player. If the enemies did not kill you in 1 hit, you would be here saying how healing is overpowered because it can completely nullify the damage you did and you slowly die because your offense can't piece their defense.

This situation is caused because most games have a single optimum point for all situations. This is usually done for simplicity, both for the designers and the players. There are ways to create multiple optimum points for various situations based on a Rock-Paper-Scissor design, but these come at a high complexity cost for everyone. Players will not want to learn the inner game mechanics to figure out what's going on and will find it hard to get into the game. Designers will also have a hard time keeping it all balanced because there's a lot more than a single growth formula to consider when creating content.

Try to figure out ways to make offense good in some situations and defense good in others and how players can turn the situation in their favor. That should give you an idea of what's involved and why games are made that way.

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