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fr0st2k

Theory - ultimate AI, at atomic level

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I've had this thought for years now. I've discussed it with friends, but they didnt have much interest, so I thought i'd bring it here.

People have tried very hard to create AI, but from a top down approach. Why not start from a bottom up? At the VERY bottom; atoms.

We know how atoms interact. We know how electrons spin and swap around in atoms. We know chemical formulas, and how a hydrogen atom interacts with two oxygen atoms to form H20. We also know velocity of atoms, how speed affects friction and heat, etc. All the information for a complex computer program is there.

Has anyone tried programming this in 3d space?

If someone programs all the knowledge we have of atoms into a computer program, not only will it serve as an amazing repository for scientific information (fact checking, etc), but if done correctly, it will become a programmable petri dish of molecules.

Can you imagine?

The program becomes freeware, and everyone on the planet downloads it like google earth. You are given a pointer that transforms into a spraycan. You select what element you want to spray, the amount, and the velocity. You create 3d spheres, adjust hardness and then stick in a heat. You can adjust wind speeds to simulate velocity.

Some group develops dirt, another figures out water. a few years down the road, someone develops an atmosphere. Years later, we have a simulation of earth, built with molecules of dirt, water, air, o2, etc.

Then computers get to the point that they can process all this at 1million times speed, so that every second in our world is 1million seconds in theirs. We do nothing but set up the conditions of earth and watch as life blossoms by itself. Eventually creatures form, then intelligence. We then begin to talk to them through the computer screen. We wait for them to advance 1000 years past us. Then a million years, and steal their technology.

Why not?

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Why not?


Well, because to simulate a few atoms, you need a computer that is a big lot of atoms.
If you manage, with a given device, to simulate much more atoms than this device contains, you've won. Until you find how to do that, you will never be able to simulate anything close to useful with a computer that could fit on the Earth.

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Hello :)


People have tried very hard to create AI, but from a top down approach. Why not start from a bottom up? At the VERY bottom; atoms.


Do you know 'connectionism' ? In this theory, 'atoms' are neurons, relationship between them is modelled with connections.
This theory is implemented thanks to neural networks.

Maybe you can have a look at this theory ?

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[quote name='fr0st2k' timestamp='1313086839' post='4847808']
Why not?

If you manage, with a given device, to simulate much more atoms than this device contains, you've won.
[/quote]

There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.

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There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.


Yes that was my point :) I find it obvious, but I'd love to see attempts at "scientifically" proving this, though.

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Just to make sure I don't lead to misunderstanding concerning the connectionist approach :
The blue brain simulate 2 mm^3 of cortex (with a very high accurate neural model) , and it's a supercomputer :(

As far as I know, neural nets aren't used in game AI : the learning process can be very very long, i think the learning process can't be integrated in games for that reason

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[quote name='SriLumpa' timestamp='1313087566' post='4847815']
[quote name='fr0st2k' timestamp='1313086839' post='4847808']
Why not?

If you manage, with a given device, to simulate much more atoms than this device contains, you've won.
[/quote]

There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.
[/quote]

How is this true when we have games that are on massive scales? Look at world of warcraft. I'd imagine you'd need a super processor to manage millions of atoms, at the same time..which at this point in time is impossible. However, there is no reason you couldnt make 1500 water molecules and attempt to make a bead of water.

Also, no one is saying we should model earth. That is not the theory im presenting...and im not so sure why youre dwelling on it. The idea is to create a program that follows scientific law on the atomic level, thus giving the program the capability of producing unlimited results.

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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1313090933' post='4847852']
[quote name='SriLumpa' timestamp='1313087566' post='4847815']
[quote name='fr0st2k' timestamp='1313086839' post='4847808']
Why not?

If you manage, with a given device, to simulate much more atoms than this device contains, you've won.
[/quote]

There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.
[/quote]

How is this true when we have games that are on massive scales? Look at world of warcraft. I'd imagine you'd need a super processor to manage millions of atoms, at the same time..which at this point in time is impossible. However, there is no reason you couldnt make 1500 water molecules and attempt to make a bead of water.

Also, no one is saying we should model earth. That is not the theory im presenting...and im not so sure why youre dwelling on it. The idea is to create a program that follows scientific law on the atomic level, thus giving the program the capability of producing unlimited results.
[/quote]

You are not modelling every atom in WOW....

And I'm not dwelling on anything....
And you are not "presenting" a theory here. You just have an idea. 1 million atoms is pretty much nothing. A 1000x1000x1000 cube is 1 billion.....
Do you have any idea how many atoms there are in a single neuron?
We couldn't simulate even one neuron at atomic scale.

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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1313090933' post='4847852']
There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.


Yes that was my point :) I find it obvious, but I'd love to see attempts at "scientifically" proving this, though.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it's proven. I tried to look for it, I remembered a Wiki page about it, but I couldn't find it. (If it needs to be proven at all. The pigeon-hole principle doesn't have to be proven it's so simple. Yet, a lot of idiots come up with an ultimate compressing algorithm *sigh*)

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[quote name='fr0st2k' timestamp='1313093349' post='4847872']
[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1313090933' post='4847852']
[quote name='SriLumpa' timestamp='1313087566' post='4847815']
[quote name='fr0st2k' timestamp='1313086839' post='4847808']
Why not?

If you manage, with a given device, to simulate much more atoms than this device contains, you've won.
[/quote]

There's a principle ins science:
Nothing can make a perfect model of itself. To model Earth, you'd need a much bigger computer that Earth itself.
[/quote]

How is this true when we have games that are on massive scales? Look at world of warcraft. I'd imagine you'd need a super processor to manage millions of atoms, at the same time..which at this point in time is impossible. However, there is no reason you couldnt make 1500 water molecules and attempt to make a bead of water.

Also, no one is saying we should model earth. That is not the theory im presenting...and im not so sure why youre dwelling on it. The idea is to create a program that follows scientific law on the atomic level, thus giving the program the capability of producing unlimited results.
[/quote]

You are not modelling every atom in WOW....

And I'm not dwelling on anything....
And you are not "presenting" a theory here. You just have an idea.
[/quote]


it was a topic meant for discussion. to theorize on the subject.

I realize modeling WoW and the earth are 2 completely different things, yet you still dwell on it, whether you admit it or not.

You do not have to model every atom. You can choose to run the physics on a different computer, and render only specific molecules if you choose to. You can also choose not to render it at all.

Stop dwelling on the modeling of earth and look at the concept. you have yet to comment on that at all.

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