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Dragonion

How much do you use your IDE?


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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1313575267' post='4850217']Why would you not use an IDE? Are you chuck norris?[/quote]
Chuck Norris doesn't even need to code; he simply creates a binary beam from his forehead connecting with the computer and makes whatever program he wants instantly appear on the hard-drive ;)

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My IDE is Notepad,
for my java programs I create a batch file that compiles, jars, and signs my applet
[code]
javac SprCre.java
IF NOT EXIST SprCre.jar (
jar cvf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
) ELSE (
jar uf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
)
< response.txt keytool -genkey -keyalg rsa -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| keytool -certreq -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| jarsigner SprCre.jar YourSign
IF EXIST index.html echo Y | DEL index.html
echo ^<applet width=755 height=508 code="SprCre.class" archive="SprCre.jar"^> ^</applet^> >> index.html
[/code]

I find an IDE tedious to use, especially Java ones(I tried using a few) where there are certain options you just cannot turn off. Some were so annoying I just went back to using Notepad.exe. I did like the format feature in Eclipse though, but is not needed unless looking at code that is not my own.

I do like Dev Bloodshed for doing C/C++, but I am mainly doing Java atm.

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It's 2011.

- Continuous integration toolkit
- Issue tracker
- Source repository
- staging/testing server/machine
- Release/deployment hosting
- An IDE
- Office/productivity suite

The bare minimums, all of which are available for free as well

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[quote name='0Circle0' timestamp='1313581640' post='4850262']
My IDE is Notepad,
for my java programs I create a batch file that compiles, jars, and signs my applet
[code]
javac SprCre.java
IF NOT EXIST SprCre.jar (
jar cvf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
) ELSE (
jar uf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
)
< response.txt keytool -genkey -keyalg rsa -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| keytool -certreq -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| jarsigner SprCre.jar YourSign
IF EXIST index.html echo Y | DEL index.html
echo ^<applet width=755 height=508 code="SprCre.class" archive="SprCre.jar"^> ^</applet^> >> index.html
[/code]

I find an IDE tedious to use, especially Java ones(I tried using a few) where there are certain options you just cannot turn off. Some were so annoying I just went back to using Notepad.exe. I did like the format feature in Eclipse though, but is not needed unless looking at code that is not my own.

I do like Dev Bloodshed for doing C/C++, but I am mainly doing Java atm.
[/quote]

Eeep just plain old notepad? Not even Notepad++ (free download). I couldn't imagine going back to not using an IDE, I use RAD 7.5.5 at work all day and I use Visual Studio 2010 for game development at home.

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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1313575394' post='4850218']
Any programmer worth a damn works with a hex editor directly with the .exe :P
[/quote]

[url="http://xkcd.com/378/"]http://xkcd.com/378/[/url]

For me it really depends on what i'm doing, the bigger the project the more useful the IDE becomes, for writing short scripts or modifying existing ones a good but lightweight text editor is a much better tool (i prefer vim for editing files)

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I will use vi in unix machines when I need to do c or c++ or perl there. Otherwise I'll use visual studio or netbeans (for java).

While I occasionally don't heed my own advice; programmers should use any tool available to them to create better things faster.

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[quote name='XXChester' timestamp='1313585457' post='4850287']
[quote name='0Circle0' timestamp='1313581640' post='4850262']
My IDE is Notepad,
for my java programs I create a batch file that compiles, jars, and signs my applet
[code]
javac SprCre.java
IF NOT EXIST SprCre.jar (
jar cvf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
) ELSE (
jar uf SprCre.jar SprCre.class Sprites
)
< response.txt keytool -genkey -keyalg rsa -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| keytool -certreq -alias YourSign
echo NotAPass| jarsigner SprCre.jar YourSign
IF EXIST index.html echo Y | DEL index.html
echo ^<applet width=755 height=508 code="SprCre.class" archive="SprCre.jar"^> ^</applet^> >> index.html
[/code]

I find an IDE tedious to use, especially Java ones(I tried using a few) where there are certain options you just cannot turn off. Some were so annoying I just went back to using Notepad.exe. I did like the format feature in Eclipse though, but is not needed unless looking at code that is not my own.

I do like Dev Bloodshed for doing C/C++, but I am mainly doing Java atm.
[/quote]

Eeep just plain old notepad? Not even Notepad++ (free download). I couldn't imagine going back to not using an IDE, I use RAD 7.5.5 at work all day and I use Visual Studio 2010 for game development at home.
[/quote]

Nope just regular old Notepad.exe unless I am doing C/C++

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[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1313584349' post='4850281']
It's 2011.

- Continuous integration toolkit
- Issue tracker
- Source repository
- staging/testing server/machine
- Release/deployment hosting
- An IDE
- Office/productivity suite

The bare minimums, all of which are available for free as well[/quote]
Or -still being in 2011- if you have that semi-autistic need to have 100% control of every single byte in your projects (both the binary and ASCII ones), you have a collection of scripts and manage everything from a console. Mmm ... just seing the screen get flooded with text as every lille component is processed individually like a large clockwork being assembled in perfect harmony. What beauty! Not saying that [i]I[/i] am that type, of course ;D

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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1313589399' post='4850314']I have encountered many disadvantages.[/quote]
I know what you mean. Some time ago I decided to try out the Visual C++ 2010 IDE and made a simple Hello World program. Then, after having spend half an hour getting the project to compile because it was missing some files ("export/symbol definition files" or something like that), when I looked at the size of the project folder I was honestly shocked -- 50 MEGABYTES for a program writing one line in a console!! It turned out to be some Intelli-thingy that apparently created some very large files, which, after all, [i]can[/i] be disabled. But still; waaay to much junk in that folder compared to a single makefile ;)

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I can do it in less than 30 seconds from my editor:

- Ctrl+N (make new file)
- Type code
- Ctrl+S (save file)
- Type file name
- F5 (compile)
- F7 (link)
- F8 (run)

[i]Plus[/i] the only file created on my hard-drive is "hello.cpp" :P However, for me development time is more or less irrelevant ...

EDIT: And another great advantage: Unlike the Visual C++ IDE my editor has no boot-time :) (Even though development time is irrelevant, having fast and reliable tools certainly isn't)

EDIT2: Also I have another dev tool installed (Open Watcom) I use every once in a while for testing various compatibility issues, and if I want to build the file with this instead I simply use Shift+F5 and Shift+F7 instead :)

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[font="Courier New"]stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]date[/b]
Wed Aug 17 13:18:29 EDT 2011
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]cat >hello.c
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
printf("hello world!\n");
return 0;
}
^D[/b]
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]make hello[/b]
cc hello.c -o hello
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]date[/b]
Wed Aug 17 13:19:07 EDT 2011
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]./hello[/b]
hello world!
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [b]date[/b]
Wed Aug 17 13:19:13 EDT 2011
stephenw@ariel:~/cv$ [/font]

If course, if I hadn't made some many typos it would have been faster. IDEs can only do so much in that respect, too.

Yeah, one wouldn't use cat for a real project. Why in the deep dark damp underworld would you use an IDE for a hello world project? Would you use a bazooka to kill a mosquito?

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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1313589399' post='4850314']
Nobody has ever demonstrated to me what possible advantage I could gain by using an IDE. I have encountered many disadvantages.
[/quote]

This is like saying "As a bike rider, nobody has ever demonstrated to me what possible advantage I could gain by using a car."

I'm not saying you should use an IDE. I often don't. I also don't own a car. But, although I can get anywhere by bike that I could by car, and although I detest cars and don't think their positives make up for their negatives, I can admit that there are positives.

Without an IDE you don't have the integration between your source and the debugger. Is this necessary? No, but it's nice. I use gdb all the time, but on certain projects it's nice to be able to visually place breakpoints while looking at my code.

Without an IDE you don't have automatic refactoring tools. Are these necessarY? No, but they're nice. They save a lot of time and headache, and let you focus on writing logic.

Without an IDE you don't have useful autocompletion, "go to definition", call hierarchy, etc.

Without an IDE you don't have a class-level view of your program that is integrated with your source.

Without an IDE you have to remember the locations of each of your files. This may not sound like a big deal, but those of us working in giant codebases don't want to spend lots of time searching through directories.

etc.

I respect your decision not to use an IDE, and I don't think it's a strange one, but you're intentionally closing your eyes if you don't realize that there are advantages (along with the disadvantages) to using an IDE.

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[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1313602873' post='4850403']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1313589399' post='4850314']
Nobody has ever demonstrated to me what possible advantage I could gain by using an IDE. I have encountered many disadvantages.
[/quote]
Without an IDE you don't have the integration between your source and the debugger. Is this necessary? No, but it's nice. I use gdb all the time, but on certain projects it's nice to be able to visually place breakpoints while looking at my code.

Without an IDE you don't have automatic refactoring tools. Are these necessarY? No, but they're nice. They save a lot of time and headache, and let you focus on writing logic.

Without an IDE you don't have useful autocompletion, "go to definition", call hierarchy, etc.

Without an IDE you don't have a class-level view of your program that is integrated with your source.

Without an IDE you have to remember the locations of each of your files. This may not sound like a big deal, but those of us working in giant codebases don't want to spend lots of time searching through directories.
[/quote]
Not a single one of those points require an IDE, unless you rephrase them to say "with an IDE, you cant ... in an IDE." So, I guess an IDE is kinda like a tautology. I can also create tautologies with an IDE, so again that's not an argument for their use.

I have tools that do all of the above. I [i]do[/i] do all of the above. Well, not autocompletion, I don't like it, but my tools do it. And none of my tools are integrated with my source, because my source is in text files. An IDE is also not integrated with the source.

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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1313605108' post='4850416']
[quote name='A Brain in a Vat' timestamp='1313602873' post='4850403']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1313589399' post='4850314']
Nobody has ever demonstrated to me what possible advantage I could gain by using an IDE. I have encountered many disadvantages.
[/quote]
Without an IDE you don't have the integration between your source and the debugger. Is this necessary? No, but it's nice. I use gdb all the time, but on certain projects it's nice to be able to visually place breakpoints while looking at my code.

Without an IDE you don't have automatic refactoring tools. Are these necessarY? No, but they're nice. They save a lot of time and headache, and let you focus on writing logic.

Without an IDE you don't have useful autocompletion, "go to definition", call hierarchy, etc.

Without an IDE you don't have a class-level view of your program that is integrated with your source.

Without an IDE you have to remember the locations of each of your files. This may not sound like a big deal, but those of us working in giant codebases don't want to spend lots of time searching through directories.
[/quote]
Not a single one of those points require an IDE, unless you rephrase them to say "with an IDE, you cant ... in an IDE." So, I guess an IDE is kinda like a tautology. I can also create tautologies with an IDE, so again that's not an argument for their use.

I have tools that do all of the above. I [i]do[/i] do all of the above. Well, not autocompletion, I don't like it, but my tools do it. And none of my tools are integrated with my source, because my source is in text files. An IDE is also not integrated with the source.
[/quote]

Why don't you tell us what these tools are? I'm especially curious as to how you do automatic refactoring. You can choose a class member and change its name, and not have to manually change the name in any of the code calling this function? What tool is this? Is it easy to use?

An IDE is also not integrated with the source? Maybe you didn't understand what I'm saying. While I'm coding I can do all of these things, without firing up some external tool. I don't have to configure some external tool to tell it where to point, and I dont' have to have a different view of my code. If I want to set a breakpoint in my code, I just set it with a quick command, as I'm typing the code itself. You cannot do this.

The fact is, if you have tools that do all of this, then you have a full DE. It just happens not to be I(ntegrated). So is your dislike of IDEs centered around the fact that the tools are integrated? You like having all your tools function in completely different ways, and none of them working particularly well together?

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[quote name='Slavik81' timestamp='1313607266' post='4850433']Intellisense? It's worth spending a few hundred megabytes on auto complete and smart reference-finding, particularly when modern hard drives have millions of megabytes of space. Not that the default intellisense for C++ is great, but in C# or C++ with VAX it's worth it's weight in gold.

When you're looking through tens or hundreds of thousands of lines of code, intelligent reference finding is very, very helpful.[/quote]
I think it depends a lot on how you work. Personally I stick almost religiously to a set of rules I have made about organizing the functionality in my projects (both file-, folder-, and module/component-wise) along with a natural procedure for building them from the ground up, and I am not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but honestly; no matter how large my projects grow I always know instinctively where everything is placed and referenced. That said, I agree IntelliSense could sometimes come in handy when looking at other peoples code :P

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The only time I might not use an IDE and instead write code in Notepad++ is when doing web development in something like PHP, especially when doing tiny scripts. For most serious projects I use Visual Studio though (even for PHP using the Phalanger plugin). Debugging, SVN, Intellisense, documentation access, solution explorer, live code inspectation (C#/Resharper) and refactoring tools are lifesavers. I normally use VS even for 'Hello world' style apps now that I have an i7 computer with 12GB ram and SSD drives.

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[quote name='Dragonion' timestamp='1313627013' post='4850550']no matter how large my projects grow I always know instinctively where everything is placed and referenced. That said, I agree IntelliSense could sometimes come in handy when looking at other peoples code :P[/quote]The situation is a bit different when working as part of a team of 20 on a many-million-line project, plus another 20 authors who no longer work there, plus a million lines of middleware and other external libraries mixed in. Being able to quickly explore and comprehend a foreign code-base is a very important feature in the real world.
[quote]I know what you mean [[i]about the disadvantage of using tools[/i]]. Some time ago I decided to try out the Visual C++ 2010 IDE and ... after having spend half an hour getting the project to compile because it was missing some files...[/quote]Sounds like you're happy to set up camp at the bottom of the learning curve [font="Times New Roman"] [/font][img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]

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