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What does GDNet think about my game engine?

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I imported a small Team Fortress 2 map as a test and I've been meaning to show everyone what I've been up to so here is a [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TC_L_O3-BM"]video[/url]. I was also going to upload a small demo but I'm not sure if I should worry about using copyrighted assets...

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[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1313922230' post='4851857']
Post code or it doesn't matter.
[/quote]

It's open source. Just click the link in my signature.

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Ah, gotcha. Wasn't at all obvious from your post that you expected people to click a signature link to go see the content.

I guess I could go re-enable signature viewing, but I'd have to go hunt down the setting again [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]

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[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1313948453' post='4851956']
Ah, gotcha. Wasn't at all obvious from your post that you expected people to click a signature link to go see the content.

I guess I could go re-enable signature viewing, but I'd have to go hunt down the setting again [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[url="http://ovgl.org/"]http://ovgl.org/[/url]

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[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]Steve,
I don't want to sound harsh. But I probably do. I have been there as well and I just warn you of the perils ahead.[/size][/font]

Let's start from the video - Demonstration of new OpenGL 3.1 graphics pipeline. - Ovgl using a small imported TF2 map.
I'm very sorry to say but what this demonstrates is purely rendering capabilities... and the ability to move a kinematic actor apparently using ballistics?
There are no animations, no specific effect I could point out as GL 3.1, perhaps HDR, I don't know, or perhaps some halos. It seems apparent some meshes are missing. No advanced shaders. I am not confident with HL2 tech but if it works by having explicit shader code then loading it probably isn't much of a big problem. Nonetheless the amount of shaders involved appears limited. At the very least, load up a few maps. Personally I've tested my system with 7 "premium" maps, 15 total "test" maps and over 30 before switching to proprietary implementation. I wish I had done this before.

What worries me most is the total lack of logic. This turned out to be troublesome in my case, especially when claiming to support "advanced features".

[quote]Open Video Game Library or Ovgl for short is a sophisticated and easy to use open source cross platform SDK for [b]next generation[/b] 3D video game development.[/quote]Be honest to yourself. You'll be extremely lucky to hit current-gen complexity. Personally I'd still be satisfied to hit last-gen complexity.
Don't get me wrong. Getting something to render is difficult, I understand. But it's only the beginning!
Rendering engine yes. Game engine? Not really.

As a comparison:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmFv0sdxwh8&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmFv0sdxwh8[/url][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]

0:04: approximated highlights on pillars[/size][/font]
0:05 - Animated texture using texcoord transform manipulation.
0:10 - [b]Actual gameplay[/b]. Pretty much everywhere: marks on walls.
0:31: other forms of texture manipulation, jumppad and thunder platform.
1:24: that texture in the corner is actually a non-trivial multipass effect.
1:33: animated textures.
1:43: other nontrivial multipass effects.
You can as well stop there.
And that's GL 1.2 (maybe 1.1 will do as well, I don't remember), year 1999.

What do you have more? Maybe HDR and maybe some bump maps? Ok. That's something. But I'd have some problems in calling it an "engine".

In general, I'd say that you chosen your showcase poorly. [b]Use a more impressive map![/b]

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It looks nice; from what little the video had to show, it looks like you did a good job with the lighting and movement.
The video doesn't really demonstrate all the engine claims to offer... only static collision and the visual side of things.
The lighting looks nice, but the dark walls shouldn't be pure black, you need some ambient lighting to make them at least visible.

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[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1314114422' post='4852821']
It looks nice; from what little the video had to show, it looks like you did a good job with the lighting and movement.
The video doesn't really demonstrate all the engine claims to offer... only static collision and the visual side of things.
The lighting looks nice, but the dark walls shouldn't be pure black, you need some ambient lighting to make them at least visible.
[/quote]

Hmm that's actually a bug. I thought they did that on purpose for some reason. lol I'm going to have to fix that. Thanks for noticing it!

EDIT: Fixed!

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More precisely, what makes this an "engine?" From the video, It looks like a BSP loader and basic renderer (considering all the textures + light maps are recalculated in TF2) with some rudimentary FPS controls.

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[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314123085' post='4852871']
What makes this engine "next generation"?
[/quote]

Marketing.

[quote]More precisely, what makes this an "engine?"[/quote]Resource (BSP) loader, renderer, controls.

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[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1314123312' post='4852873']
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314123085' post='4852871']
What makes this engine "next generation"?
[/quote]

Marketing.
[/quote]

It's a good job we are on gamemarketing.net then... oh wait...

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[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1314123312' post='4852873']
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314123085' post='4852871']
What makes this engine "next generation"?
[/quote]

Marketing.

[quote]More precisely, what makes this an "engine?"[/quote]Resource (BSP) loader, renderer, controls.
[/quote]

There are many many features not demonstrated in this test. Also it's loading an FBX file not a BSP file.

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[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314135264' post='4852969']
There are many many features not demonstrated in this test. Also it's loading an FBX file not a BSP file.
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question; what makes it 'next generation'?

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[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314135653' post='4852972']
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314135264' post='4852969']
There are many many features not demonstrated in this test. Also it's loading an FBX file not a BSP file.
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question; what makes it 'next generation'?
[/quote]

It's not... Yet...

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Looks good to me...you can now start add some gameplay(like shooting barrels or whatnot) and some effects(particles...) to live it up.

If I may ask, how did you converted the TF2 map to FBX? I'm interested in that myself.

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[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1314159883' post='4853074']
Looks good to me...you can now start add some gameplay(like shooting barrels or whatnot) and some effects(particles...) to live it up.

If I may ask, how did you converted the TF2 map to FBX? I'm interested in that myself.
[/quote]


I used [url="http://nemesis.thewavelength.net/index.php?p=45"]Crafty[/url]. Make sure to set the profile in the object viewer and then restart it or textures will not load right. Also it already can do those things but before I make another demo I have 4 things that need to be done.

1. Character animation.
2. Character path finding
3. Shadow Mapping.
4. Map editor

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[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314146651' post='4853032']
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314135653' post='4852972']
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314135264' post='4852969']
There are many many features not demonstrated in this test. Also it's loading an FBX file not a BSP file.
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question; what makes it 'next generation'?
[/quote]

It's not... Yet...
[/quote]

I see... *looks at 'about' box on website*
I see...

OK, so what planned features do you have which make it 'next generation'?

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you created something that will be a good codebase for your future 3d works. enjoy the result of your work, go, and create some real games with it.

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[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314189398' post='4853179']
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314146651' post='4853032']
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1314135653' post='4852972']
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1314135264' post='4852969']
There are many many features not demonstrated in this test. Also it's loading an FBX file not a BSP file.
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question; what makes it 'next generation'?
[/quote]

It's not... Yet...
[/quote]

I see... *looks at 'about' box on website*
I see...

OK, so what planned features do you have which make it 'next generation'?
[/quote]

[url="http://ovgl.org/view_topic.php?topic=91JL96IHFS"]http://ovgl.org/view_topic.php?topic=91JL96IHFS[/url]

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A terrain system, no matter how 'clever' does not a next generation engine make...

(btw, a 3D volume texture is a massively inefficient way of doing this; you'll want to use some kind of sparse structure or you'll just be wasting vast amounts of ram and processing time)

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I have mixed feelings about this project.


On the one hand, it is certainly commendable that you are putting forth such consistent effort on such a large scale project. Most people don't have it in them to stick with things like this long enough to get results.

On the flip side, though, I kind of agree with Phantom, although I'm a little more understanding about your own opinion of your work. When I was a much younger and less experienced programmer, I also over-described my projects and over-inflated the complexity, richness, and polish of what I worked on. So I totally know what it feels like; you've done something significant, which by all means you should be proud of - but not [i]too proud[/i].

Realism is important, and humility is nothing short of vital, especially when you start opening your work to external criticism. Remember that you are in a position where you need feedback, not sales; overselling your work is going to harm you far more than it will help. What does it gain if people think your project is really cool at first, but never use it because it can't deliver on your promises? Conversely, what do you have to lose if people try your project with low expectations and are pleasantly surprised by what they find?

It is always better to underpromise and overdeliver than vice versa.


You cannot possibly compete with the large teams of people who are making [i]actual[/i] next-generation game engines. And even if you could, you wouldn't have to post about it on GDNet - your work would speak so loudly for itself that we'd almost certainly be talking about it already. So by projecting this image like your lone-wolf operation is going to beat out id or Crytek, you're really just inviting a lot of skepticism and dismissal from the people you [i]should[/i] be courting.


I haven't had a chance to look at the code itself, so my opinion may change for the better, but judging from your posting history around here I wouldn't exactly jump at the chance to commit my next title to your code base. Again, I don't want to minimize your accomplishment, or sound [i]too [/i]critical; you've got a lot of good stuff done. But my gut is that there's still a huge amount of room for improvement.

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Yes, don't get me wrong; it's good that you are doing something HOWEVER the term 'next generation' has been thrown around so much as to have become even more meaningless than when it was first used.

Most features people see as 'next generation' are in fact CURRENT generation and have been for some time. The term "next generation" implies you are pushing features and tech beyond what we currently have... most people aren't doing that.

Your terrain rendering tech idea have some promise, but as far as I can tell it's nothing more than an idea right now; run with it by all means, I'll be intrested to see the outcome as that sort of tech is something I'm intrested in but that doesn't mean you have a 'next gen' engine.

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