Possible neutrinos travel faster than light

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51 comments, last by driftingSpaceMan 12 years, 6 months ago
This is not a recent development, but the news becoming public regarding this is very fresh.

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To recap: the Italians placed the speed of the neutrino marginally above the speed of light.

The speed of light is one of the cornerstones of the theory of relativity, which in turn is one of the fundamental cornerstones of life as we know it today. The results so far haven't been verified and aren't therefore conclusive. However the scientists involved have probably taken more care than most coders out there to make sure their results are as legit as possible. In that they have analyzed these results over three years and at this time there simply is no other explanation. The results may be confirmed or disproved rather soon by two other independent parties (see articles).

It is probably safe to say that if they happened to confirm the results, relativity itself could take a position similar to what Newtonian physics was forced to take a century ago - as a passing stage between sticks and stones and a theory of everything. It would also rattle the cage we live in very unexpected ways. For instance, sending information back (and possibly forth) in time might all of a sudden become a practical problem rather than a theoretical one.

In other words, if these results were to be confirmed, we could be in for quite a ride.
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I'd really love to see this confirmed, it'd be really interesting, and a great breakthrough in physics models! There are already so many mathematical models, this could throw many away and generate new ones :)

Maybe the "time" dimension works differently than we think, and since speed is time and distance related, weird properties of the time dimension can have an effect on lightspeed. Well, just making stuff up here, I'm not a physicist :)

But I can't say whether it's actually true or not until it has been confirmed over, and over, and over again, in different setups and locations.
It's possible that the mass of the neutrino has been misgauged. We have proved that energy with a negative mass can exist (see: Negative energy) through experimentation. If negative energy is possible to produce then particles with a negative mass exist. If a neutrino actually had a negative mass, it would theoretically be able to travel faster than the speed of light without changing the current models of physics.
Does anyone know through what these particles got sent? Do they just go through rock over this whole distance?

EDIT: Got the answer. Neutrinos travel through atoms unhindered.
EVERY SCIENTIFIC LIE IN STAR TREK IS ACTUALLY TRUE! D:
Chuck Norris decided to throw the particles over the mountains, which also explains the results.
Either that or they went through a vacuum tube..
It would also rattle the cage we live in very unexpected ways. For instance, sending information back (and possibly forth) in time might all of a sudden become a practical problem rather than a theoretical one.

In other words, if these results were to be confirmed, we could be in for quite a ride.


Let me preempt a few pages of rambling nonsense: no, that 'might' not happen by any reasonable interpretation of the word 'might'. Relativity never even hinted at the possibility of time travel (im affraid you are confusing relativity theory and science fiction), and neither will whatever theory comes out of this. All we know theoretically and experimentally is that one can put a damper on the passage of time; nowhere is it implied that one can qualitatively change the arrow of time, infact relativity theory explicitly requires this cannot be done, and this experiment doesnt change a single thing about that fact.

The core ideas behind relativity will remain firmly standing of course, notwithstanding sensationalism to the contrary. This result is entirely consistent with the notion of a fundamental speed limit to propagation through the vacuum; and all this entails, ie the core tennets of relativity theory. Perhaps just like most particles, photons dont quite reach that maximum speed. The vacuum is to photons less 'empty' than to neutrinos, since a photon would interact much more strongly with whatever there does be, in terms of quantum fluctuations or trace amounts of particles, so it makes sense from that point of view; if mass isnt the only interaction to hinder a particle from moving through the vacuum at full speed, then neutrinos would be a good contender to photons for the candidate of fastest particle, since they are very light indeed and barely interact with anything at all, as opposed to the rather promiscuous photons.

The upheaval will mainly be theoretical rather than practical. String theory or other hubristic frameworks which start out by taking the speed of light as an axiomatic property are all in rather deep trouble if this will be confirmed.
I too would love for this to be confirmed, because that would open up the future for quite a lot more science and understanding of our universe. Not that I suspect we're running out of ideas on how to improve our understanding, but jarring results like this are always fun.

I just don't see it happening, really. It's such an unlikely thing to be true, given what we know. And since it's only happened in one instance that we've set up, I strongly suspect that it's really just a fluke in the experiment. Not being a quantum physicist, I can't begin to conjecture what they messed up, but that's definitely where I'd start with the finger pointing.

Of course, it would be amazing if we did end up discovering a way to communicate FTL or develop FTL drives based on this somehow, but that's a pretty lofty hope indeed. :)
Success requires no explanation. Failure allows none.

[quote name='irreversible' timestamp='1317034827' post='4866006']It would also rattle the cage we live in very unexpected ways. For instance, sending information back (and possibly forth) in time might all of a sudden become a practical problem rather than a theoretical one.

In other words, if these results were to be confirmed, we could be in for quite a ride.


Let me preempt a few pages of rambling nonsense: no, that 'might' not happen by any reasonable interpretation of the word 'might'. Relativity never even hinted at the possibility of time travel (im affraid you are confusing relativity theory and science fiction), and neither will whatever theory comes out of this. All we know theoretically and experimentally is that one can put a damper on the passage of time; nowhere is it implied that one can qualitatively change the arrow of time, infact relativity theory explicitly requires this cannot be done, and this experiment doesnt change a single thing about that fact.

The core ideas behind relativity will remain firmly standing of course, notwithstanding sensationalism to the contrary. This result is entirely consistent with the notion of a fundamental speed limit to propagation through the vacuum; and all this entails, ie the core tennets of relativity theory. Perhaps just like most particles, photons dont quite reach that maximum speed. The vacuum is to photons less 'empty' than to neutrinos, since a photon would interact much more strongly with whatever there does be, in terms of quantum fluctuations or trace amounts of particles, so it makes sense from that point of view; if mass isnt the only interaction to hinder a particle from moving through the vacuum at full speed, then neutrinos would be a good contender to photons for the candidate of fastest particle, since they are very light indeed and barely interact with anything at all, as opposed to the rather promiscuous photons.

The upheaval will mainly be theoretical rather than practical. String theory or other hubristic frameworks which start out by taking the speed of light as an axiomatic property are all in rather deep trouble if this will be confirmed.
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Uh, Photons do too reach the maximum speed of light.....Photons are massless particles that move unhindered because gravity only exerts a pull upon things with mass....since it has no mass gravity can't slow it down and so it travels at the maximum speed of the universe.

Also, its possible to travel faster than the speed of light by using negative energy to bend spacetime.... therefore it is possible that the neutrino possibly has the effect of bending spacetime or it consists of a negative mass.
Eelco, it's not my intention to postempt your preemption, but I'd just like to point out that the notion of time travel could be far more elusive if this were to be true. If the bulk of information is limited to light speed and regular matter is bound by that limit as such, then for all intents and purposes a particle that travels faster than light is travelling back in time. I do not claim that time travel is possible, which is why I wrote: "[color=#1C2837][size=2]It would also rattle the cage we live in very unexpected ways". IF harnessing this were possible in practice, then sending bits of information doesn't necessarily amount to time travel in a traditional sense.
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[color=#1C2837][size=2]Also, while I'm not too well versed on the topic of neutrinos, it is my understanding that they are not that well understood themselves. Based on this I have to assume that it might not be possible to use neutrinos to carry information so much as they are relics that simply are. I don't think Relativity Theory is in any danger of being debunked. Neither do I think the Standard Model is or String Theory are for that matter - while String Theory is a topic in and of itself, there hasn't been a case in history where either the Standard Model or Relativity Theory, when applicable, has fallen flat on its chest. Yet, the Standard Model is literally missing its most important component. If this implies anything, then it is that we're not wrong, but we're rather just not there yet.
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[color=#1C2837][size=2]Regarding time travel - I mentioned nothing about the arrow of time. Also, on a side note - it might be an interesting dabble into science fiction to open another topic and try and fantasize what the arrow of time actually is and why we perceive it the way we do. Because I don't believe anyone really has an idea.
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[color=#1C2837][size=2]>> The upheaval will mainly be theoretical rather than practical.
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[color=#1C2837][size=2]Let's agree to disagree in that I prefer to remain more hopeful and wouldn't put something as fundamental past the [color=#1C2837][size=2]next [color=#1C2837][size=2]potential[color=#1C2837][size=2] great discovery just yet, even if the discovery itself might be postponed beyond my lifetime. Although, I do agree that there doesn't seem to be much practicality in this at face value.
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[color=#1C2837][size=2]At the end of the day, though, the guys at the lab went public with this because they couldn't figure this out on their own. They could be poking out their left eye tomorrow morning when some 13 year old points out that they'd accidentally switched their gear to imperial instead of metric when someone spilled their morning coffee.

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