[quote name='Discount_Flunky' timestamp='1317299305' post='4867166']...

Oh man, I actually laughed out loud half way through that!
I'm not "taking sides" with the Palestinians here, but... who has been teaching you history?

--With what has happened to them it's understandable why they have gotten to the point where they are now--
By the same token, I assume this also applies to the Palestinians? Including the ones who were forced from their homes during the creation of Israel within their land? Both sides have been through hell at each other's hands, but it's pretty hard to argue that the Palestinian side hasn't been worse off.
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This really cuts to the core of these debates: yes, the Palestanians are worse off. Similarly, the germans were far worse off than the allied forces coming to firebomb their cities. But its not in everybody's world that taking hits automagically makes you the good guy.

The arabs fought and initiated many a war over that piece of land; and they lost them. If they would have gotten over that fact, they might have picked up the pieces by now. Imagine what germany would have looked like if it would have kept blowing up american GIs for decades; it wouldnt have been pretty.

Those aren't answers. Those are simple parts of complex answers. Doing either of those won't suddenly make rainbows appear over jerusalem as moslems, jews, and christians run through the street.
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No they are simple answers.

This outlines your perspective (and a common one);

These are deep seeded cultural problems that extend beyond the legal and political problems, and there are, in fact, no simple answers..
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There are no deep seated cultural problems, Jews and Arabs have long been brothers and the majority still feel this way. The problem is 'Zionism'.

This really cuts to the core of these debates: yes, the Palestanians are worse off. Similarly, the germans were far worse off than the allied forces coming to firebomb their cities. But its not in everybody's world that taking hits automagically makes you the good guy.

The arabs fought and initiated many a war over that piece of land; and they lost them. If they would have gotten over that fact, they might have picked up the pieces by now. Imagine what germany would have looked like if it would have kept blowing up american GIs for decades; it wouldnt have been pretty.

This is something I've thought about a lot. The situation over there seems like a whoever gives up first wins situation. I feel like all palestine is doing by resisting is making themselves look hostile enough for nobody to have to step in. If they did nothing and Israel tried to march over them, then perhaps there would be more action on the table. If you hit a bear with a stick, the bear won't just run away. Similarly if Israel backed down and took a firm stand toward defense without lashing out every time they were attacked. the rest of the world would probably sympathize with them.

Those aren't answers. Those are simple parts of complex answers. Doing either of those won't suddenly make rainbows appear over jerusalem as moslems, jews, and christians run through the street.

No they are simple answers.[/quote]
No. They are not answers. They are answers to isolated problems that make up a much larger problem.

There are no deep seated cultural problems, Jews and Arabs have long been brothers and the majority still feel this way. The problem is 'Zionism'.
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Do you have a source for that? I have one against it.

Radical islam is just as much a problem as zionism btw.

Israel is aggressive, they won't stop trying (and succeeding) to kick out Palestinians if the Palestinians stopped attacking.

[color=#1C2837][size=2]Yes the Jews land did start small, but then Palestine and Israel fought a war. Guess what, Israel won, that's the way it is. It also doesn't matter how much they used to have. They only care about what they have now, and their land is the main reason they oppose Palestine's sovereignty. [/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]

[color="#1c2837"]The Jews lost it fair and square a long time ago and only got it back because it was given to them. They probably would have never earnt it back through their own military efforts if Big Brother wasn't giving out his hand-me-downs. The Palestinians aren't just fighting for land they lost, they are fighting to keep the land they have.
[color="#1c2837"]

[color="#1c2837"]The World-hates-the-Jews card is old, it's torn, it's like a marked card in poker or go-fish and is just not acceptable in this game. Everyone had to fight for their existence in the history of the world and many civilisations were [color="#1c2837"]annihilated from existence. I bet they feel more hated than the Jews, if you could ask them. Why should anyone feel sorry for people alive today for something that didn't actually happen to them? They probably wouldn't have even been born if those things didn't happen! Heck, with the way of slaves and conquests, I bet there are plenty of people with a Jewish line if we choose to look that far back.

Israel is aggressive, they won't stop trying (and succeeding) to kick out Palestinians if the Palestinians stopped attacking.

[color="#1C2837"]Yes the Jews land did start small, but then Palestine and Israel fought a war. Guess what, Israel won, that's the way it is. It also doesn't matter how much they used to have. They only care about what they have now, and their land is the main reason they oppose Palestine's sovereignty.

[color="#1c2837"]The Jews lost it fair and square a long time ago and only got it back because it was given to them. They probably would have never earnt it back through their own military efforts if Big Brother wasn't giving out his hand-me-downs. The Palestinians aren't just fighting for land they lost, they are fighting to keep the land they have.

[color="#1c2837"]The World-hates-the-Jews card is old, it's torn, it's like a marked card in poker or go-fish and is just not acceptable in this game. Everyone had to fight for their existence in the history of the world and many civilisations were [color="#1c2837"]annihilated from existence. I bet they feel more hated than the Jews, if you could ask them. Why should anyone feel sorry for people alive today for something that didn't actually happen to them? They probably wouldn't have even been born if those things didn't happen! Heck, with the way of slaves and conquests, I bet there are plenty of people with a Jewish line if we choose to look that far back.
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Big Brother? Reread 1984 and you'll discover that name doesn't apply here.

Well if they didn't win it fair and square back then they share have now. They won the struggle for Independence. At the time they had very little outside help after the British left. Then pretty much the entire Middle East invaded them and they beat them all in SIX days. The thing is most reasoning's for one nation work for the other nation if you look at it a different.

[color="#1c2837"]"The World-hates-the-Jews card is old, it's torn, it's like a marked card in poker or go-fish and is just not acceptable in this game." Say that to the Jews. It doesn't matter what the world thinks. They fell threatened on every side, and now they have an army. Why would they not strike back?
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[color="#1c2837"]The last point is a good point. If you look back you kind of have to conclude that almost everyone has Jewish blood somewhere in their veins. They have just been scattered so much throughout history.

[quote name='Discount_Flunky' timestamp='1317320049' post='4867280']
I love how everyone throws around all of Israel's supposed "War crimes" and completely ignores the car bombings, suicide bombings, beheading's, and stoning's, committed by the completely innocent and defenseless [color="#1c2837"]Palestinians.

Defending one states actions by saying 'but the other guys do it too!' is no defense.

Both sides are killing each other and Israel's continued taking of land is not helping matters and are pushing one group who have no other voice or backing into their actions.

If Israel was to stop their actions then they would have a leg to stand on and would more than likely get more backing if the Palestinians didn't stop their actions.

Right now however what is happening is that one nation, with the backing of another, is stealing land and forcing people from their homes, that group have no other recourse and are fighting back as best they can.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" has never rung so true.

And there is no 'supposed' about it, just that while the US is backing them they will never be brought to account on them.
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I didn't say they were terrorist. I was making the point that it's not a one sided affair. Actually if you look at the correct definition of the word Jihad, Israel is a valid Jihad target.

Everyone blames the Israels because their on top, but don't think for a second that it would any different if the tables were turned. If fact it would probably be worse because Israel is on Americas leash, while the Palestinians have no limitations and their surrounded by people who are encouraging them to attack Israel.

I didn't say they were terrorist. I was making the point that it's not a one sided affair. Actually if you look at the correct definition of the word Jihad, Israel is a valid Jihad target.

Everyone blames the Israels because their on top, but don't think for a second that it would any different if the tables were turned. If fact it would probably be worse because Israel is on Americas leash, while the Palestinians have no limitations and their surrounded by people who are encouraging them to attack Israel.

I just wanted to say that whoever is down voting you needs to graduate from high school. You aren't saying anything really worthy of downvoting; even though I don't necessarily disagree with everything your saying.


Sure you might disagree with him, but his points are generally backed up with facts. Those facts can paint a bunch of very different pictures; whether or not your picture is the same doesn't mean he's not using the same paint. Compared to a lot of political threads it's also been pretty civil on DF's account. I voted him up back to 0, but would not have +1ed if not for the fact that people throw around down votes just because they're afraid the facts don't always prove them irrevocably correct.

Sometimes there are no right answers. There's no need to be a douche just because you can't accept that.

edit: VVVV I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the guy who downvoted all of your posts in this thread.

[quote name='Discount_Flunky' timestamp='1317347584' post='4867430']
I didn't say they were terrorist. I was making the point that it's not a one sided affair. Actually if you look at the correct definition of the word Jihad, Israel is a valid Jihad target.

Everyone blames the Israels because their on top, but don't think for a second that it would any different if the tables were turned. If fact it would probably be worse because Israel is on Americas leash, while the Palestinians have no limitations and their surrounded by people who are encouraging them to attack Israel.

I just wanted to say that whoever is down voting you needs to graduate from high school. You aren't saying anything really worthy of downvoting; even though I don't necessarily disagree with everything your saying.


Sure you might disagree with him, but his points are generally backed up with facts. Those facts can paint a bunch of very different pictures; whether or not your picture is the same doesn't mean he's not using the same paint. Compared to a lot of political threads it's also been pretty civil on DF's account. I voted him up back to 0, but would not have +1ed if not for the fact that people throw around down votes just because they're afraid the facts don't always prove them irrevocably correct.

Sometimes there are no right answers. There's no need to be a douche just because you can't accept that.
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When I was being a douche. I wasn't the one who started saying people "live in imaginary worlds" and such. (although you could be talking about someone else, I can't tell who you are referring to at the end.)

There are no deep seated cultural problems, Jews and Arabs have long been brothers and the majority still feel this way. The problem is 'Zionism'.

LOL

[color="#1c2837"]The Jews lost it fair and square a long time ago and only got it back because it was given to them. They probably would have never earnt it back through their own military efforts if Big Brother wasn't giving out his hand-me-downs. The Palestinians aren't just fighting for land they lost, they are fighting to keep the land they have.

Also, this is totally bull. They "lost" it a long time ago (fairness debatable), but that has nothing to do with the legality of the Palestinian nation state today. They were living there in small numbers, and eventually started moving back to their original holiest of cities (hey, this sounds like some sort of deep seated cultural issue). The English split Palestine off from the Ottoman Empire after WWI, in which the Ottoman empire lost (loss number 1 eventually ending in where we are today). The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted 4 times before the state was split into a Jewish state and an Arab state (losses 2-6). The Jews accepted this split obviously, but the Arabs did not and started a civil war, which they also lost (loss number 7) in which Israel expanded by around 25%. Jordan also expanded while it was going on. Then the six days war was caused after an attack by the PLO and corresponding intervention by the Israelis. The PLO closed a major shipping port which Israel warned would be taken as an act of war. SURPRISE a war happened. Then the first intifada happened after a couple of escalating crimes based off rumors eventually ending in a teen being shot after throwing a molotov cocktail at the Israeli army, which resulted in no major in or loss for either side, just dead bodies. The second intifada happened after Ariel Sharon visited the temple mount, just for him being there (srs). This resulted in more dead bodies with both sides losing a good amount of lives as well as monetarily. This resulted in Israel pulling out of the gaza strip.


There. Now we can stop with all this bullshit about what did or didn't happen in the past 100 years because it's all right there in one big paragraph. You can not like it all you want, but this is exactly what actually happened.