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Aluthreney

HTML5

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HTML5 doesn't exist yet. It's scheduled to be finalized in 3-4 years, but it's unlikely it ever will be, or that by the time it will even be relevant. Since different proposed core technologies were boycotted by various browser vendors, a consensus on crucial features isn't possible. Considering the stakes of technologies such as video or database, they never will be.

Right now, the HTML5 related work includes various proposals for various extensions and additions. These exist in various stages of implementation and formalization in various browsers as experimental features.

There is no "everything", it completely depends on browser versions (features change, are enable or disabled, break unpredictably).

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5"]Wikipedia lists proposals[/url], their current state then needs to be checked against desired browser versions. This is somewhat difficult, considering they tend to change every few weeks.


Put differently, HTML5 is a marketing term. To use various features, select the browsers, then compare their current state of proposed future APIs. Be prepared to for updates each time new version of a browser is released (every 6 weeks or so).

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Antheus, you have a pretty questionable opinion of HTML5. Firstly, it's not just a marketing term. It [b]is[/b] the next iteration of the HTML standard. It may not be finalised yet, but that is irrelevant. Things aren't going to change drastically, and in the end, it only matters what the browser vendors are supporting, and they are supporting it. Unless you are using Internet Explorer 6 or an equally outdated POS user agent, you should have support for the majority of HTML5 and CSS3 features, which are already being used on some of the most popular websites by millions of people, and have been for some time. You aren't going to have wait 3-4 years for HTML5. It's here, [b]now[/b]. Yes, new features are being added all the time. Firefox is in a 6 week release cycle, but that is really nothing new.

As for OP, you can use this as a reference for the markup side of HTML5. http://www.w3schools.com/html5/html5_reference.asp

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[quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317496015' post='4868042']
It may not be finalised yet, but that is irrelevant.[/quote]

HTML5 specification is proposed to be a standard, which is precisely that. Not finalized.

Otherwise, HTML5 is a marketing term. Handwaving. Because it's not relevant what it means. It's like zombo.com. You can be anything at zombo.com.

[quote]Things aren't going to change drastically, and in the end, it only matters what the browser vendors are supporting, and they are supporting it.[/quote]
Supporting what?

How can they support something that isn't defined? Unless they are using marketing term. Because one cannot support a standard which will be defined in 3 years.

[quote]you should have support for the majority of HTML5 and CSS3 features, which are already being used on some of the most popular websites by millions of people, and have been for some time. You aren't going to have wait 3-4 years for HTML5. It's here, [b]now[/b].[/quote]

"... you might already be a winner. For a low low price of $99.95, fill out the form and see if you too are part of the HTML5 family and join the millions priviliged to experience the sights, the sounds, the experience and beauty that is HTML5."


There is no HTML5. There are proposed extensions and some sites are making use of some of current implementations. They are using the term HTML5 for marketing purposes. Because "proposed revision of HTML standards family" simply doesn't sound all that cool.

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Antheus, you obviously aren't a web developer, and if you are one, you are a very misinformed one. I think it would be better if you didn't go around filling people like Aluthreney heads up with nonsense. HTML5 is here to say, and it is not going to drastically change. If you think otherwise, you are being impractical and crazy. If you want to wait up to 3-4 years for a document (that looks 99% identical to the current draft) to be rubber stamped by W3C, then by all means, just wait around here in the mud. The rest of the world will be laughing furiously at you because of your tinfoil hat wearing.

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OK. Where is this overview of entire HTML5 then?

I'd really love to know.

Because right now, the information I need is scattered between W3C and WHATWG specs, developer documentation of each browser developer, various blogs, and the most useful parts come from sites like quirksmode. Then there is a ton of "HTML5, but only works on Chrome 13.24123b dev build" libraries on github, various blogs showing off latest techniques that end up broken 2 months after they were published and random forum posts. In development, anything CSS will be --webkit and similar mess. Oh, just use Less.

And if w3cschools is the answer, then may god have mercy on our souls.

For some reason, there is this huge reality disconnect going on. "It will be supported". Maybe I am crazy, but I need stuff that works today.

Instead, anytime anyone asks anything beyond even remotely basic about anything HTML5 related, it's always the same: "it's the greatest thing, it does everything, it's here today, use it". But then walks away when I ask: "Where".

Show me. And hopefully something more than just <footer> and <header> and <navbar>. These are worthless, they are part of every single freekin site 1995, they just got an extra tag.

Show me how HTML5 now suddenly changes everything. I'll also say here that I still find tables incredibly useful for layout, since they just work, even on 10 year old browsers. What is this new thing that HTML5 brings? Or maybe it's just that my needs are slightly more advanced than just worrying about which tag is fashionable to use for such tasks.

Or should we finally give up on notion of anything and resign that software development is fashion industry and it's all about looks but no substance.

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[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1317568699' post='4868274']
I'll also say here that I still find tables incredibly useful for layout, since they just work, even on 10 year old browsers. What is this new thing that HTML5 brings? Or maybe it's just that my needs are slightly more advanced than just worrying about which tag is fashionable to use for such tasks.
[/quote]

Well there is your problem. You haven't even discovered CSS and you are targeting 10 year old browsers. You really have been left behind. You can't comprehend the next iteration of web development because you don't even understand the current one. If you haven't learned to separate your content from presentation, you really are living in the stone ages of web development.

Tags like <article> make documents more friendly for indexing, but are hardly the most exciting thing in the HTML5 basket. Canvas and Video are probably the most important things, because for the first time it is possible to drop all ties to flash. Having to rely on a 3rd party plugin from Adobe to use the internet for anything interesting has been the biggest damn shame of the last decade. 90% of the use of flash has probably been simply for embedding videos into web pages. The video tag takes care of that need, and canvas does the rest.

The biggest reason to use HTML5 today is forward compatibility. It works in all modern browsers today, and it will continue to work in modern browsers for years to come. Even Microsoft is a supporter of HTML5. It's surprising just how much even IE9 supports, and Windows 8 is using HTML5 as one of it's markups for "immersive" applications.

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[quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317596737' post='4868415']
Well there is your problem. You haven't even discovered CSS and you are targeting 10 year old browsers.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, it's not just Antheus' problem. Corporate policy in particular means old browsers will have to be supported for a while in a lot of code.

[quote]You really have been left behind.[/quote]
It can be more a case of web developers leaving clients behind. Sure at some point they need a nudge, but if you can write code that functions perfectly well on IE6 through to the latest builds of Chrome, you've potentially got something of more value than blindly building something against HTML5, whatever that really means at this point.

[quote]You can't comprehend the next iteration of web development because you don't even understand the current one.[/quote]
It looks more like a healthy distrust of hype than a lack of understanding to me.

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[quote name='edd²' timestamp='1317668058' post='4868660']
It looks more like a healthy distrust of hype than a lack of understanding to me.
[/quote]

Indeed, over the past 15 years I've lost track of the number of 'next big thing!'s which have happened... man, I remember when Java was meant to be the cure for all our ills, offering compile once-run anywhere code from desktop to browser...

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[quote name='edd²' timestamp='1317668058' post='4868660']
It can be more a case of web developers leaving clients behind. Sure at some point they need a nudge, but if you can write code that functions perfectly well on IE6 through to the latest builds of Chrome, you've potentially got something of more value than blindly building something against HTML5, whatever that really means at this point.
[/quote]

IMO it depends on your user base. If you are a HTML monkey working for some stuffy corporation, you may very well be bound by some stupid policy that says every page needs to render correctly in even IE5 and Mosaic.

The fact is though, that everyone on this planet with an internet connection has access to a modern web browser and they are only at most 3 clicks away.

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[quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317686611' post='4868756']
The fact is though, that everyone on this planet with an internet connection has access to a modern web browser and they are only at most 3 clicks away.
[/quote]
False*. I lived in South Africa for the last two years and 95% of the computers I saw were running XP and were seriously lacking any updates. Sure, they could use FireFox or Chrome, but they don't. It killed me inside.

While yes, HTML5 would be cool if it lived up to the hype, vendors and committees haven't reached any solid enough conclusions and agreements for me to believe it will be the cure to cancer.

@Phantom: GDV5...

*Ok, I really just wanted to quote The Office. It's not entirely false, because they do have access to modern browsers. But that's very different than them using modern browsers. And assuming they'll make those 3 clicks.

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[quote name='Cornstalks' timestamp='1317687392' post='4868761']
False*. I lived in South Africa for the last two years and 95% of the computers I saw were running XP and were seriously lacking any updates. Sure, they could use FireFox or Chrome, but they don't. It killed me inside.
[/quote]

That's my point. Firefox, Chrome and even Opera (if you swing that way) are all about 3 clicks away. Even an XP user can install them. Instead of designing your websites for the least common denominator, why not give IE6 users a friendly little message, saying this site might not function properly on their decade old browser, but fret not, salvation is just 3 clicks away ([url="http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/"]http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/[/url]), welcome to modern world. Tada.

I'm not going to use HTML 3.2 or spend 9000 hours to support every browser ever made, just because there might be somebody out there who is going to try to view my page with an out dated user agent. Internet Explorer usage is on a steady decline, but maybe it would be a lot faster if people didn't spend so much time trying to accommodate these people and instead spent a little time trying to educating them.

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I certainly agree that sites should encourage you to upgrade if you have an outdated computer. Especially since Microsoft itself is begging you to kill it. I'm just saying in certain parts of the world that just isn't likely to happen. I'd put my experience in south Africa into words, but its truly impossible to convey all the technological horrors I saw. When I work on web stuff, I always stick to modern technology.

But back to the OPs question: everything I'd like to say has already been said.

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[quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317686611' post='4868756']
The fact is though, that everyone on this planet with an internet connection has access to a modern web browser and they are only at most 3 clicks away.
[/quote]

I use IE9, I'm happy with IE9, IE9 doesn't support all the "HTML5" elements that the other browers support.

Your move.

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[quote name='Aluthreney' timestamp='1317481325' post='4867989']
Does anyone know where I can find a good beginners HTML5 tutorial. Not one that only explains the new features of HTML5, but one that teaches everything?
[/quote]

[url="http://diveintohtml5.org/"]http://diveintohtml5.org[/url]

I haven't read it myself, but got it recommended a year back by some IT journalist.

Edit: The site looks to be down, but the book can be found here [url="http://www.jesusda.com/docs/ebooks/ebook_manual_en_dive-into-html5.pdf"]http://www.jesusda.com/docs/ebooks/ebook_manual_en_dive-into-html5.pdf[/url] or on google

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[quote]
I use IE9, I'm happy with IE9, IE9 doesn't support all the "HTML5" elements that the other browers support.

Your move.
[/quote]

Well there is no accounting for taste, though that browser [i]does[/i] actually support all the HTML5 tags I've mentioned in this thread. You think you'd be aware of your own software's capabilities.

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[quote name='VildNinja' timestamp='1317713384' post='4868878']
[url="http://diveintohtml5.org/"]http://diveintohtml5.org[/url]

I haven't read it myself, but got it recommended a year back by some IT journalist.
[/quote]
That is fascinating.

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I fixed the thread for you:[quote name='VildNinja' timestamp='1317713384' post='4868878'][quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317596737' post='4868415'][quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1317568699' post='4868274'][quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317543918' post='4868203'][quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1317498473' post='4868053'][quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317496015' post='4868042'][quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1317491353' post='4868026'][quote name='Aluthreney' timestamp='1317481325' post='4867989']Question?
[/quote]troll[/quote]lolol[/quote]lol[/quote]ololo[/quote]lo[/quote]lolol[/quote]
Answer[/quote]

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[quote name='lpcstr' timestamp='1317714749' post='4868886']
You think you'd be aware of your own software's capabilities.
[/quote]

You say that but I long ago decided that when it came to the internet/web I'm purely a consumer; I couldn't care less about the standards or software features as long as the browser displays the content I care about that's all that matters.

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my 2 cents that I am sure no-one will want or care about.

I think HTML5 will become the standard sooner or later.. so what does it mean for various web users?

The average Joe:
Uses the web for emails, facebook, videos, news... that kinda thing.
For MOST of them they will not even notice HTML5 when it starts being used, does the average user even know if they are watching a flash video or and HTML5 one? No. Do they care either? No. They just want their content. Site like facebook/news/blogs.. well HTML5 isn't going to change them all that much either, we might see a few more interactive (canvas based) pieces but I doubt there will be that much of it. (no-one likes pointless animations)

The developer:
Life will now suck because everyone will want a "HTML5" site not really knowing what it even means. Coding will take much much longer due to the cross-browser issues and all the extra work for fall-backs. It wouldn't surprise me at all if what would have taken a team of 2, a flash dev and a web dev a few days to do, will now take twice as long... not only will the web dev have to implement skinned video players and dynamic content himself AND make sure its compatible, the flash dev will probably still have to make the player and other dynamic content anyway as fall-back because it will much more likely work on the users system.
(project managers are going to love that!)


Don't get me wrong there are some epic features in there, all the new form elements, geolocation and sockets to mention a few.. but these all come at a price and will probably not find themselves in the vast majority of sites. I think apps are most likely to reap the benefits from the new standard.

A lot of hype around HTML5 but I feel its a little misguided. With power comes responsibility.

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[quote name='bwhiting' timestamp='1317730072' post='4868958']
Don't get me wrong there are some epic features in there, all the new form elements, [b]geolocation[/b] and [b]sockets[/b] to mention a few.. but these all come at a price and will probably not find themselves in the vast majority of sites. I think apps are most likely to reap the benefits from the new standard.
[/quote]

And herein lies the rub. Geolocation and WebSockets APIs are [b]not[/b] HTML5. They are independent APIs developed by W3C with nonstandard support across browsers and have introduced serious security issues. The same goes for WebGL, Storage API, Web Workers, and a whole host of other APIs/features that people associate with HTML5, yet are not HTML5, are not (and might never be) cross browser supported, and might be scrapped or changed at any time due to the severe security issues that continue to creep up. In addition, there is no consensus on a minimum video codec support, so the video tag remains nonstandardized and does not enjoy cross browser support.

Worst of all, is that the link above lumps all of these HTML5 APIs into one lesson on "HTML5" and uses names like "HTML5 Storage" (even though he admits it is a seperate API later) that further obfuscate what HTML5 actually is and the mess that is surrounding the current sea of independent web APIs and lack of consensus on codec support. It is a great site for getting an overview on new web technologies, but it really perpetuates the mythical HTML5 creature and spurs people on to make posts in threads like these where they attack people for not seeing the grand vision that HTML5 offers. And when you try and point out the wizened man behind the curtain, you are labeled a troll who is ignorant of the splendor of HTML5. Both Antheus and VildNinja have provided [b]correct[/b] answers in this thread. Antheus is right to point out the flaws and shortcomings of HTML5, and VildNinja appropriately linked what the OP wanted to see, even if most of the stuff is not HTML5.

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Quit the pedantry. Web standards have been vague, fluid and mostly slapdash affairs for 20 years. [i]Now[/i] we're supposed to start ignoring things without formal standards?

Some things work for some browsers, just like they always have. It sucks, but no amount of noise and fury is going to change the reality of web standards evolution.

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[quote name='arbitus' timestamp='1317734162' post='4868970']

And herein lies the rub. .... Antheus is right to point out the flaws and shortcomings of HTML5, and VildNinja appropriately linked what the OP wanted to see, even if most of the stuff is not HTML5.
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing out my horrifically broad generalisation, but most folks thinking about HTML5 will be having these in mind due to the mass hype around it at the mo.


If only there was a [i]plugin [/i]that could overcome so many of the problems.. ahem [img]http://public.gamedev.net/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif[/img]

I hear a lot of "flash is dead" "flash is obsolete" "flash isn't pure" etc.... if you ask me it is looking a more attractive solution for interactivity on the web than ever.

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[quote name='Telastyn' timestamp='1317735093' post='4868978']
Quit the pedantry. Web standards have been vague, fluid and mostly slapdash affairs for 20 years. [i]Now[/i] we're supposed to start ignoring things without formal standards? [/quote]

No, standards have always been just that. Just like RFCs, which can be vague, but have defined the important parts of the internet.

As for pedantry. Last time I suggested using std::auto_ptr I was quickly corrected that it's deprecated and the correct use, according to standard these days, is std::unique_ptr. But same thing holds, the latter is unavailable and the end user simply doesn't care.

The reason web is a mess is precisely because of that. Lack of pedantry on all sides.

HTML5 is page markup and no more. It doesn't even include CSS, but does defined scripting and some other elements and DOM APIs.

But due to conflicts of interest and downright stonewalling by various browser vendors, majority of important features that make up for modern web development have been moved out under Web Standards Project (apparently, that's what they prefer to be called).



So in what way is calling HTML5 a marketing term a problem? Unless the original question was about HTML5 markup, which I could have misunderstood, but HTML5 markup has no "cutting edge". It just renames a few elements. But if using umbrella term, then things get really complicated. CSS is 40+ documents alone. Not counting browser-vendor specifics. It's huge.


And on related topic: I'd like to learn about "cloud". Everyone is doing it. Where can I learn everything about it?

Finally, for the reality of web.
- I have a relatively new top-of-the-line LCD TV with internet and all. Browser doesn't support HTML5. It doesn't even support Flash, it uses some hack to enable Youtube and nothing more. This is the TV I'm stuck with for the next 5-10 years. Or, despite integrating one of standard browser codebases, it doesn't fulfil the role.
- I have an android phone into which I'm locked for well over a year (barring spending a fortune). It isn't going to be upgraded. I'm not jailbreaking it either - that's not exactly reasonable.
- Banking, tax and corporate services, certificate authority (death and taxes, the really really important stuff) I use requires IE7 on Windows. No, I cannot change, unless someone offers a quick and cheap way to immigrate - "Reason: I want government with Ubuntu 11 support"
- The old backup phone I have uses Opera browser abandoned 5 years ago.

But yes, if you are on Win7 Windows, you have a choice of dozens of browsers. If you are on Mac, you have a choice of about 10. If you are on Linux, same, just different subset.

And something people don't realize yet. Come Windows 8, non-IE browsers are going away for Metro platform. There will be no plugins, no alternate browsers, just default Web Window (or similar friendly name). And people won't care, because switching back to legacy (ugh) mode will be reserved for power users.

So as a web developer, you'll be able to scream all you want about Metro not doing the right thing, but it won't matter. And then you'll wish there were some way to force them to follow some common guidelines. Or a standard.

Microsoft is no longer a monopoly, not on Web, not in mobile or desktop. So all the injunctions about what they did with IE to destroy competition no longer apply. Metro will do to web what they did to native development. Sure, it's C++, as long as you don't mind being C++/CLI. One is standard, but the other is what you need to use. So for web it will be whatever they provide.


But for those who use Facebook, Google and Twitter, with occasional Flickr or such, there will be no problem. Those sites have thousand-strong engineering backup that will make anything happen. As long as you are in the 80% of users group.

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[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1317738625' post='4869002']
... C++/CLI ...
[/quote]

Now hold on a second. I already told you once in another thread, there is no C++/CLI focus in Windows 8. C++/CLI is a language made by Microsoft, and it's only function is to combine .NET code with native. It's [b]not[/b] a gerneal purpose application programming language and it [b]never[/b] will be. The language is so unpolished and undocumented that they can't even get C++/CLI intelesense to work in their IDE, so they disable it all together. Don't confuse it with their other technologies or rumors you might have heard.

I also have no idea why you are saying it's IE or the highway for Metro. Somebodies probably already porting Firefox and Chrome to WinRT.

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