Plus, as maligned as teachers' unions are (and sometimes rightly), educating kids is difficult. Union-free charter schools haven't posted compelling results that unions are the key factors in holding kids back.

There is the option, dare I say, of Union-free non-charter public schools, or at least the option of schools where superintendents and principles are allowed to fire their employees the same as any other employer can.

edit: there should also be a more realistic option to opt out of being in a teachers union. Right now if teachers opt out it pretty much dooms your career until you decide to join the union.

[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1320423033' post='4880502']
Plus, as maligned as teachers' unions are (and sometimes rightly), educating kids is difficult. Union-free charter schools haven't posted compelling results that unions are the key factors in holding kids back.

There is the option, dare I say, of Union-free non-charter public schools, or at least the option of schools where superintendents and principles are allowed to fire their employees the same as any other employer can.
[/quote]

Also, while some charter schools are worse than public schools, some are better... A lot better. The benefit of charter schools is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't. Failing charter schools should either get better or close because parents are not sending their children there. They are a lot more flexible than their public counterparts.

The benefit of charter schools is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't[/quote]

The benefit of unlicensed doctors is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't.

There is the option, dare I say, of Union-free non-charter public schools[/quote]

How about instead of clinging on populisms, one were to first look at successful examples, such as Finnish education systems, one of best ranked in the world by any metric.

One of most important aspects there is that teachers and experts in the fields have a say on what, how and why to teach. Not MBAs, politicians, helicopter parents or anyone else. The other is that schools have not been privatized and do involve unions, so greed and short term profit maximization doesn't affect it.

The benefit of unlicensed doctors is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't.

Hardly the same comparison. There is more flexibility in medicine than there is in our education system. There is constant research going into the best way to advance medicine, and treatments for advanced illnesses are getting better all the time. Teachers unions actively stifle advancement of education in this country. They have a vested interest in maintaining the status-quo. It would be like a doctors union who didn't allow any medical treatment other than antibiotics. Sure, antibiotics can help quite a few problems, but it's hardly the right way to go every time.

The benefit of unlicensed doctors is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't.

This is a bad metaphor. The unlicensed doctor : licensed Doctor :: Charter school : public school analogy has so much wrong with it I'm surprised you would even make it.

One of most important aspects there is that teachers and experts in the fields have a say on what, how and why to teach. Not MBAs, politicians, helicopter parents or anyone else. The other is that schools have not been privatized and do involve unions, so greed and short term profit maximization doesn't affect it.
[/quote]
It should be noted that Unions in Finland have a distinctly different goal than Unions in the US.

governments, trade unions and employers’ organizations form a tripartite in Finland, closely coordinating, communicating and heading to a common goal. In many countries the opposing-parties usually polarize debates and public opinion. Since the beginning of the 1970s until 1987 the ministry of education had two ministers from the main parties, requiring close political cooperation, resulting in workable solutions as both parties could endorse them. This proved to be the key factor behind the continuity of Finnish education policy. The parties detached from their populist political objectives and strategic maneuvers and began focusing on the subject-matter, on cooperating and acting together.
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Via the close partnership between the labor organizations and the governments, between the employees and the employers, in both planning and implementation stages, the teacher union changed from external political pressure group into a stakeholder in government decision-making, i.e. into one encompassing labor organization, that looks at the interest of the COMPLETE SOCIETY, just like the government. This key element in good quality of governance and public institutions turned out to be the driving force of education performance and economic competitiveness in Finland.[/quote]
http://bertmaes.word...nd-the-success/

In the US education system teachers unions have no interest in the quality of education, but rather and often solely the health of their organization and the quality of life for the teachers they represent. There are direct quotes from union representatives saying that their goals are not to better educate

edit: there is also a huge size disparity in the two regions. I'm not sure we can enforce the quality of teachers that Finland does and still have enough teachers to teach all our students (every teacher in Finland is required to have a Master's degree for which only 1 in 10 applicants is accepted).

How about instead of clinging on populisms, one were to first look at successful examples, such as Finnish education systems, one of best ranked in the world by any metric.

One of most important aspects there is that teachers and experts in the fields have a say on what, how and why to teach. Not MBAs, politicians, helicopter parents or anyone else. The other is that schools have not been privatized and do involve unions, so greed and short term profit maximization doesn't affect it.

One thing we should clear up is that one union does not necessarily equal another. To begin with, it sounds like they strive to higher only the best teachers in Finland, while education degrees are some of the easiest to acquire in the US. In Finland teachers choose their own teaching methods and materials. In Finland, teachers unions work with to government to improve education, and are not mindless obstacles only interested in self preservation.


http://www.huffingto...n_b_836802.html

Based on that, it sounds like their education system has a functional union, and less regulation than our system.

[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1320428358' post='4880538']
The benefit of unlicensed doctors is that they can adapt to what works and abandon what doesn't.

Hardly the same comparison. There is more flexibility in medicine than there is in our education system. There is constant research going into the best way to advance medicine, and treatments for advanced illnesses are getting better all the time. Teachers unions actively stifle advancement of education in this country. They have a vested interest in maintaining the status-quo. It would be like a doctors union who didn't allow any medical treatment other than antibiotics. Sure, antibiotics can help quite a few problems, but it's hardly the right way to go every time.
[/quote]

You really think that teachers have control of the education system? Politicians like to stand on their soapboxes and proudly proclaim how broken the system is and then proceed to shape the next "broken" way the system will work using their vast lack of expertise in education. Teachers are the saving grace of the education system.. they succeed, for the most part, despite the system put in place.

Next, you think teacher unions actively stifle advancement of education in this country? Teacher unions actively try to counteract the vitriolic attitude that the public holds about teachers - teachers are some of the easiest scapegoats. Are there bad teachers? Sure.. just like any company has bad employees. But there are management systems in place to deal with failing teachers, and in this day and age schools have no room to tolerate failing teachers with the pressures of NCLB. There are also plenty of great teachers as well. Yet even great teachers aren't going to get through to everyone.. to think that they just magically can by somehow being more enthusiastic or passionate is incredibly insular. There will ALWAYS be students who underperform at certain tasks.. that will never change.. because we are all DIFFERENT.

Charter schools perform no better than public schools when you disaggregate student populations and compare similar demographics (apples to apples). They are a magic pill designed to shift education of students to private enterprise. The truth is, they are no better.. and in some cases can be worse.

One thing we should clear up is that one union does not necessarily equal another. To begin with, it sounds like they strive to higher only the best teachers in Finland, while education degrees are some of the easiest to acquire in the US. In Finland teachers choose their own teaching methods and materials. In Finland, teachers unions work with to government to improve education, and are not mindless obstacles only interested in self preservation.


http://www.huffingto...n_b_836802.html

Based on that, it sounds like their education system has a functional union, and less regulation than our system.

Why do you keep saying "higher" when you mean "hire"?

But yeah, no surprises that when a union doesn't have to do battle to actually make sensible education policy that they can be successful. By the way, educators are CONSTANTLY researching education best practices.

Oh, and Finland has a 4.4% poverty rate.. one of the lowest internationally. Poverty has a profound impact on education. You see, the higher up the Pyramid you are on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.. the more you can devote time to activities like education.

You really think that teachers have control of the education system? Politicians like to stand on their soapboxes and proudly proclaim how broken the system is and then proceed to shape the next "broken" way the system will work using their vast lack of expertise in education. Teachers are the saving grace of the education system.. they succeed, for the most part, despite the system put in place.

No, teachers unions have control of the education system. They participate quite heavily in the buy the politician game.

But there are management systems in place to deal with failing teachers, and in this day and age schools have no room to tolerate failing teachers with the pressures of NCLB.[/quote]

Bullshit. The system for managing failing teachers is to send them to another school or to put them in a "rubber room" where they collect their full salary while not teaching. It can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to attempt to fire a failing teacher.

http://www.laweekly.com/2010-02-11/news/lausd-s-dance-of-the-lemons/

[font=Georgia,]But the[/font][font=Georgia,] [/font]Weekly[font=Georgia,] [/font][font=Georgia,]has found, in a five-month investigation, that principals and school district leaders have all but given up dismissing such teachers. In the past decade, LAUSD officials spent $3.5 million trying to fire just seven of the district's 33,000 teachers for poor classroom performance — and only four were fired, during legal struggles that wore on, on average, for five years each. Two of the three others were paid large settlements, and one was reinstated. The average cost of each battle is $500,000.[/font]
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In some cases they settle and agree to pay a bad teacher tens of thousands of dollars to find another job.

Charter schools perform no better than public schools when you disaggregate student populations and compare similar demographics (apples to apples). They are a magic pill designed to shift education of students to private enterprise. The truth is, they are no better.. and in some cases can be worse.
[/quote]

Similar demographics?! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/urban-prep-100-percent-of_n_824286.html

[font=Arial,]For the second year in a row, an all-male charter school with students from the city's worst neighborhoods is sending its entire senior class to college.[/font][font=Arial,][size=2]Urban Prep Charter Academy was founded in 2006, and its goal from the start was for every one of its graduates to be attending college when they left. It was an unlikely mission, given that only four percent of the school's first freshman class was reading at grade level when they entered.[/font]

[font=Arial,][size=2]Last year, the school, founded by educator andnonprofit leader Tim King, did just that -- all 107 graduating seniors were accepted at the end of the year. And this year, Urban Prep has repeated its success[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]

[/quote][/font][/font]

This is an inner-city school who took students that were failing in the public education system and got 100% of them into college. How is that not apples to apples? Charter schools cannot pick and choose their students. If there are more students who want in than they can accommodate, they have a lottery system to admittance. Obviously not all charter schools can achieve this sort of success, but this should be the model that other schools adopt and failing charter schools have to get better or close. It is idiotic to dismiss charter schools just because some of them are not working.

This is an inner-city school who took students that were failing in the public education system and got 100% of them into college. How is that not apples to apples? Charter schools cannot pick and choose their students. If there are more students who want in than they can accommodate, they have a lottery system to admittance. Obviously not all charter schools can achieve this sort of success, but this should be the model that other schools adopt and failing charter schools have to get better or close.

So a school with high expectations, small class sizes and a system in place where every student had a personal teacher mentor succeeded? Wow.

It is idiotic to dismiss charter schools just because some of them are not working.
[/quote]

The irony of this statement is palpable.