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Crafting and Magic and Skills

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This is not an ad for my game, since it doesn't exist yet. This is just a question about crafting.

I love crafting. Cannot stress this enough. Words cannot express my love, other than that I feel a fiery passion stronger than a super nova when I meet a good crafting system. I do not know if my system will be good or balanced. But I am attempting to design an entirely player run economy with an open skill system. NPCs can be hired to run shops and mine/farm/cut trees/etc in a limited capacity. They can also be hired as guards, because every building in the game can be conquered. But not so much that a small group of high level players can't stomp the NPCs. NPCs cannot craft items. They can only work in player owned mines/farms. And hiring a player during their offline time is worth many more res per hour than using npcs. You have to pay them though, this partly replaces npc quests.

That is all just background to my main question however.

In my system with its vast selection of crafting options each player can use all the skills, however this is not necessarily as time efficient as working with other players. It is better to have a sword maker, an alchemist and an enchanter and a wizard than to have one player do it all. Also because raising one skill doesnt raise the time needed for others, there will be no multies. And because players can own storage, mules will also be irrelevant.

Furthermore, monsters do not drop items or gold, only mats for crafting. The money system is closed to a degree. Using flavor reasons as an excuse, each player enters the game with an amount of gold. The gold supply is based on player population. Inactives will have their gold distributed evenly across all the players maybe every month as a divine blessing type event. This method is used to try and control inflation and remove the problems from a faucet/drain style economy. It has its own problems I'm sure, but thats what beta testing is for.

The reason you might use all the 4 classes above in making a nice sword is because multiple professions can be used to enhance one item. Alchemists can use potions to refine materials. Magic can refine them also, and the same to some degree for metal/wood workers. Alchemists and wizards/sorcerers/enchanters can also align the matrix, which allows lower level gear to hold more powerful enchantments. Alchemists cannot add spells per say only apply potions for effects, such as poison, acid, and so forth. Enchanters can add effects permanently, and they are added by inscribing words on an item. Each item type has a certain amount of space for this engraving. This space can be inreased by isncribing the words with acid(alchemists) or magic(wizards/sorcerers), and higher level metal working skills because obviously you can practice to learn to write small and clear. The refinement of a scribing allows a more powerful version to be used, where as the size means more possible inscriptions. Enchanters can imbue these inscriptions with power but cannot add temporary buffs. Wizards and sorcerers can cast temporary buffs on items, but not permanent ones that enchanters can do.

So weapons can be physically well made, have an aligned matrix, have more or better enchantments, and have buffs. Their edges can be sharpened with alchemical acids beyond what physical crafters can do. They can be poisoned and have weaker acids that damage people but not metal. Magic bufs and potion effects are temporary. Crafting work and enchantments are permanent. There may or may not be gem or rare metal additions to items like a crytal or emerald hilt stone, which can add more enchantments. The reason inscription quality is separate from enchantment quality is because you can reinchant items to be more powerful as your enchanter levels up, as long as the inscription level is high enough. You can also change the enchantments on weapons as long as you have access to enchanting or another player to do it.

Of course alchemists can also use potions directly, lke tossing flamable things, poisons, or corrosives on enemies/monsters. And wizards/sorcerers can use their magic in the standard spell casting way. Essentially crafting is cross professional, although you don't have to, and each profession also has skills to make them viable in combat.

Spells and enchantments and traps with or without potions may or may not be usable to defend buildings to help in defense if you are offline.

The goal of the crafting system is to force players to work together, and to work with people with different specializations. You can do it all yourself, but likely your items wont be as good unless you play a lot more.

Magic is an economic resource as well, as players who want to be mages must either explore the world for ruins to find new words of power to forge spells, or purchase a grimoire from another player. Grimoires contain spells but don't give away the nature of the words of power, which have to be sold separately, this allows a wizard to hoard his knowledge of words of power. After all if buying a grimoire gave you the words, you could make your own and put him out of business.

Now I know a lot of people despise complexity in games, and in many cases even real depth. Some players just hate crafting period. That is what WoW is for.

Some people might say that you can't balance such a complex system, I disagree but obviously we won't know until I try.

I guess now that you understand the system more or less, if any of you are crafters, does it interest you? I have written code to make an alchemy rpg simulator, this code can be changed only slightly to add the other resources and item types. What I am trying to figure out is, is there a playerbase out there for this kind of game? Why spend years making it if there is no audience.

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So this is part of a game. MMORPG exact?
I like it so far, they never let you run shops in rpgs.

I dont know if everyone will feel like crafting especially since its a group effort.
I never got into MMOs too much so I dont know how team interactions outside of battles work.

Inflation? Like in a few other threads which people commented,
people like feeling in control and this seems like a cup of tea situation.
Some may like the cycles of economic wealth.

Is the crafting system balanced between the 4 types?
Make sure of that.

The Magic learning system sound interesting.
Are they equal in effort?
BTW what are the other classes like?

I cant 100% stand for the crafting system.
I dont know if it has balance or that it is tiring to have to constantly work with others for every single item.
My idea would be to balance them out and to craft for the purpose of an upgrade.

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So this is part of a game. MMORPG exact?
[color="#FF0000"]yes
I like it so far, they never let you run shops in rpgs.

I dont know if everyone will feel like crafting especially since its a group effort.
I never got into MMOs too much so I dont know how team interactions outside of battles work.

Inflation? Like in a few other threads which people commented,
people like feeling in control and this seems like a cup of tea situation.
Some may like the cycles of economic wealth.
[color="#FF0000"]inflation is capped at the rate at which inactives leave the game. and i can always not add inactives wealth if i think its too high.
Is the crafting system balanced between the 4 types?
[color="#FF0000"]there are more than 4 types, i just used an example of 4 possible crafters who can add to sword crafting specifically
Make sure of that.

The Magic learning system sound interesting.
Are they equal in effort?
[color="#FF0000"]equal in effort? i dont understand
BTW what are the other classes like?
[color="#FF0000"]there are no classes.
I cant 100% stand for the crafting system.
I dont know if it has balance or that it is tiring to have to constantly work with others for every single item.
My idea would be to balance them out and to craft for the purpose of an upgrade.
[color="#FF0000"]you don't have to work with others, you can spend the time to raise all skills yourself or just not use all the possible bonuses. many casual players wont i suspect

reply in red

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[quote name='justdashplease' timestamp='1321249014' post='4883654']
So this is part of a game. MMORPG exact?
[color="#FF0000"]yes
I like it so far, they never let you run shops in rpgs.

I dont know if everyone will feel like crafting especially since its a group effort.
I never got into MMOs too much so I dont know how team interactions outside of battles work.

Inflation? Like in a few other threads which people commented,
people like feeling in control and this seems like a cup of tea situation.
Some may like the cycles of economic wealth.
[color="#FF0000"]inflation is capped at the rate at which inactives leave the game. and i can always not add inactives wealth if i think its too high.
Is the crafting system balanced between the 4 types?
[color="#FF0000"]there are more than 4 types, i just used an example of 4 possible crafters who can add to sword crafting specifically
Make sure of that.

The Magic learning system sound interesting.
Are they equal in effort?
[color="#FF0000"]equal in effort? i dont understand
[color="#4B0082"]Equal in effort to learn?
BTW what are the other classes like?
[color="#FF0000"]there are no classes.
[color="#4B0082"]Thats whats what i get for assuming....
So just pick some weapons and magic?
I cant 100% stand for the crafting system.
I dont know if it has balance or that it is tiring to have to constantly work with others for every single item.
My idea would be to balance them out and to craft for the purpose of an upgrade.
[color="#FF0000"]you don't have to work with others, you can spend the time to raise all skills yourself or just not use all the possible bonuses. many casual players wont i suspect
[color="#4B0082"]So raising skills will take awhile? Will they be as good?

[/quote]

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Inflation is more than increasing gold cost of items. A currency is worth what you can exchange it with. I'm not sure what the players can purchase with gold, but if it's meant to be used for player trades only, it will hold no value. This means players will find another item of value to serve as currency. Limiting the amount of gold will not do anything for inflation. If a component is common and serves as currency, you will see it become the standard currency and people will start to farm it. This will increase the money supply and create the same inflation unless it is consumed at an equal pace. In the end, this is the same thing you are trying to avoid by limiting gold supply.

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Inactives will have their gold distributed evenly across all the players maybe every month as a divine blessing type event.[/quote]Where is my incentive to work for gold then, and where is my incentive for giving you *real* money so I can play this game only for you to take way my hard work's earnins when I'm on holiday or in hospital for a month. This won't work, don't think so. Also, this will actually further inflation, not lessen it, as it unnaturally pumps money into circulation which would otherwise be "gone" in inactive accounts.

crafting can do (impressive things) and items can be (omnipotent and virtually unlimited detail)[/quote]Before thinking about who will master this, what's about implementing it and about the hardware resources required to run such a simulation. It's a big difference whether you store the tuple (long_sword_id, 5) or 5 records half a kilobyte each for 5 individual maxtrix-tuned swords of awesomeness.

If crafting is one of the main game components, every player will craft and own literally thousands of items. Many thousands. If there are a thousands of people, numbers get large quite rapidly. Now if every single item of those millions and millions of items takes up non-trivial space, you will need a non-trivial database and non-trivial bandwidth for truly non-trivial money, too.

every building in the game can be conquered. But not so much that a small group of high level players can't stomp the NPCs[/quote]You'll find 5 griefers in every online game, even in games that only have 30-40 players total. Which means, again, where is my incentive as a non-griefer player, if it only takes half a dozen assholes to team up and rob all my stuff, burn down my house, destroy 6 months of work? Why would I pay *real* money for being punished for no good reason (except maybe if one is a masochist)?

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Inflation is more than increasing gold cost of items. A currency is worth what you can exchange it with. I'm not sure what the players can purchase with gold, but if it's meant to be used for player trades only, it will hold no value. This means players will find another item of value to serve as currency. Limiting the amount of gold will not do anything for inflation. If a component is common and serves as currency, you will see it become the standard currency and people will start to farm it. This will increase the money supply and create the same inflation unless it is consumed at an equal pace. In the end, this is the same thing you are trying to avoid by limiting gold supply.


i am aware of this problem. that is why i am allowing expansion of the money supply by distributing inactives cash, among other things.

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Inactives will have their gold distributed evenly across all the players maybe every month as a divine blessing type event.
Where is my incentive to work for gold then, and where is my incentive for giving you *real* money so I can play this game only for you to take way my hard work's earnins when I'm on holiday or in hospital for a month. This won't work, don't think so. Also, this will actually further inflation, not lessen it, as it unnaturally pumps money into circulation which would otherwise be "gone" in inactive accounts.
[color="#FF0000"]i want a small amount of inflation. it allows the money supply to be more stable relative to the amount of goods. [color="#FF0000"]you are not going to be instantly robbed of your money the minute you log off. this is primarily for low level accounts. in the safe zone at the center of the world who quit, or for people who sign up log in once and leave. if you are very powerful its likely you will be out in the normal world where your money can be redistributed by being attacked without my having to do anything. perhaps i should have clarified.

crafting can do (impressive things) and items can be (omnipotent and virtually unlimited detail)[/quote]Before thinking about who will master this, what's about implementing it and about the hardware resources required to run such a simulation. It's a big difference whether you store the tuple (long_sword_id, 5) or 5 records half a kilobyte each for 5 individual maxtrix-tuned swords of awesomeness.
[color="#FF0000"]actually, its not that complicated. if you construct a database properly there is no problem. since this isnt a high level 3d mmorpg also, i dont have to worry about many large server load issues i would otherwise. i can store an items info easily with relational databases and joins. items cannot be omnipotent. even if you really minmaxed it, its not like 1 week old character can take down someone who has played a year just with a sword.

If crafting is one of the main game components, every player will craft and own literally thousands of items. Many thousands. If there are a thousands of people, numbers get large quite rapidly. Now if every single item of those millions and millions of items takes up non-trivial space, you will need a non-trivial database and non-trivial bandwidth for truly non-trivial money, too.
[color="#FF0000"]i am aware of the amount of individual items that could be produced. unless the game is really popular i dont think i will have a problem with my database set up.
every building in the game can be conquered. But not so much that a small group of high level players can't stomp the NPCs[/quote]You'll find 5 griefers in every online game, even in games that only have 30-40 players total. Which means, again, where is my incentive as a non-griefer player, if it only takes half a dozen assholes to team up and rob all my stuff, burn down my house, destroy 6 months of work? Why would I pay *real* money for being punished for no good reason (except maybe if one is a masochist)?
[color="#FF0000"]how is that any different from say, warring factions, or eve? any pvp heavy rpg can cost you lots of items. maybe the game is just not designed for your particularly? given that you call it no good reason? there are methods for dealing with griefers. and also for preventing people from being broke and itemless. perhaps i should have described some in the post.
[/quote]

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