Generating Dynamic Content

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22 comments, last by wodinoneeye 12 years, 3 months ago

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1324630154' post='4896765']
[color="#ff0000"]Monsters have individual behaviors based on type, preferred biomes, nests and species behavior related to nests.

This is really funny, I use almost excatly same terminology in my game, but I dumped most approaches due to the complex handling and the lacking relevance to the player.
I hope you're more successfully than me.
[color="#ff0000"]well in some cases there isn't gameplay relevance to the player per say. the code is actually really simple to write and process. a nest is just a monster not spread out from the rift anymore. it stays in its current area.
Your rift system reminds me of tabula rasa(sci-fi MMORPG), instead of rifts, some kind of drop ship releases hords of enemies (including conquering/defending outposts).Whatever technology they used, as player it felt like scripted events/standard spawning.Tabula rasa has been shut down, but maybe you can still find some more information about the used technology, a post-mortem, player reviews etc.
[color="#ff0000"]the rifts are somewhat scripted events. they produce some different events as side affects, but they are just intended to fill the world with pve enemies.
The following passage is more about a philosophy of procedural content generation (atleast this is a forum to discuss such things :wink:), feel free to skip it :P

Your approach sounds good, but I'm telling you this to motivate a better focus on the target audience . There's always the danger of making a game, or let's say a simulation, which satisfy the developer , but the players, your audience, don't see the benefit of such a system, even worst, see more bugs and cheats than gamedesign.
[color="#ff0000"]the AI isn't "smart". it functions like the AI in Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom or warcraft type RTS.
Although I recommend to read some AI articles. A common issue with AI in games is, that 'clever' behaviour of the AI will not be interpreted as 'clever', more as 'bug/cheat', by the player. From the player point of view it is often better to let your AI agents talk about their actions, instead of just doing the 'clever' things. An example is, that the AI discovers, that the player is hiding, then sneaks up to the him and throw a grenade into the hiding spot. The player doesn't see the 'clever' behaviour, he just see the game-over screen and things about a cheating AI.
[color="#ff0000"]As I said above anyone familiar with those types of computer games will not see the AI as cheating.
Procedural content generation is similar to AI (kind of god AI, creating and managing a world) and there're similiar pitfalls. One pitfall is the story. With story I don't mean written text, with story I mean the story of an image, an object, a character, an environment etc. When you encounter a forest, with blood splattered on the ground, plants which has been trampled etc. this environement tells you the story about a recent battle.
[color="#ff0000"]There is some lore to the game, as well as areas that do what you say. Mostly they are city ruins, but you may see things elsewhere.
It is like a book story. A story without conflict is not a story. It like prince charming has been born, meets pricess boring, marries her, got some childs, dies from age, fin.... that is not a story. You need conflicts, an evil mage who wants to steal the pricess, threatens the children, an other prince who wants to marry your princess etc.
[color="#ff0000"]the game is a sandbox, not a themepark. Within the loose constraints of the lore the players are making their own story. Granted if you haven't read my other threads about my game the context may not be incredibly obvious. This is just one aspect of the game.
A story without conflict is like a procedural world without 'story'.
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I disagree with the statement that monster's killing each other isn't useful to game play. The player being able to see creatures interacting among themselves does a great deal to give the impression of a living world. If I see two types of monsters fighting each other then I can infer that they do it while I'm not looking. If they're just standing around I get the impression that nothing happens in the world unless I'm involved.

In Oblivion you would occasionally see a wolf chasing a deer, from a player's point of view that makes sense and helps reinforce immersion. Seeing a wolf just standing idly next to a deer would show that the world isn't alive and break any sort of immersion you had managed to create.

Even in WoW wolves will occasionally attack the rabbits hopping around the woods.
that is immersion not game play.

that is immersion not game play.


Luring a strong MOB into a nest of another MOB so they kill each other and you slay the 'victor' isn't game play?
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1324746695' post='4897094']
that is immersion not game play.


Luring a strong MOB into a nest of another MOB so they kill each other and you slay the 'victor' isn't game play?
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No one said anything about luring a mob towards another mob. The comment was about wolves killing rabbits and leaving their bodies around for players to find and similar things.

that is immersion not game play.


Immersion and gameplay are interrelated. If I'm immersed in a game I'm usually having a good time. Giving your players an enjoyable experience is the whole point of the game, so it should be the focus of the gameplay design. If I'm not interested and emotionally invested in your game all the fancy rift spawning in the world isn't going to keep me playing.

Luckless has a good point as well, a clever player could take advantage of MOB interactions. Say I want to get through a forest filled with Deadly Deadly Spiders and I see a group of goblins heading toward the same forest. I could sneak behind the goblins, letting them kill (and be killed by) the Deadly Deadly Spiders getting me through the forest unscathed.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that your idea is bad, just that you shouldn't dismiss MOB interactions so quickly.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1324746695' post='4897094']
that is immersion not game play.


Immersion and gameplay are interrelated. If I'm immersed in a game I'm usually having a good time. Giving your players an enjoyable experience is the whole point of the game, so it should be the focus of the gameplay design. If I'm not interested and emotionally invested in your game all the fancy rift spawning in the world isn't going to keep me playing.

Luckless has a good point as well, a clever player could take advantage of MOB interactions. Say I want to get through a forest filled with Deadly Deadly Spiders and I see a group of goblins heading toward the same forest. I could sneak behind the goblins, letting them kill (and be killed by) the Deadly Deadly Spiders getting me through the forest unscathed.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that your idea is bad, just that you shouldn't dismiss MOB interactions so quickly.
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I didn't. I thought about it a lot and decided not to do it.
MOB on MOB interactions that players can figure out and use to their advantage would be a great improvement over the scream and charge killer mannekins (on rails) most of these games have. Normal patterns, logical behaviors/interactions, territories, valid/logical placement/group dynamics...
Enemies should runaway, run to defensible positions, ambush players, assist players, seek reinforcements, cringe and plead for their lives, ignore players(if big and bad enough), feign attacks, fight defensively, etc.. These different interactions ARE scriptable at the current server NPC processing loadings (offset largely on no longer having minefields of countless enemy entities across most of the world). Fewer more interesting computer run opponents (more challenge+reward and less repetition) with more suprises and more tactics to match the situation. The entities can actually look like they belong in their situation (no spawning out of thin air next to the player).

In MMORPGs you will want to see more instancing (and a large world to make the instances far apart) so that you can choreograph more interesting quests/missions/encounters without the interference of other players (who as we know will willfully interfere with other players to get their infantile jollys). The more complex something is, the easier it is to fall apart and external player interfence has to be exculded except for the players group.
Bigger player mobs can happen in other scenarios (and are interesting in their own way) but for most of the game disruption of the players experience needs to be eliminated. With a sufficient bubble size the player can decide which way to approach the situation even round about paths if allowed and dont have to be restricted to 'getting out of the way of the next boatload of newbies' and can take their time to figure things out.

Dynamic (generated) content more complicated than simply running into a MOB can be done including scenery props and terrain using hierarchical parameterized templates controlled by world spanning influence maps (with local recursion) to vary the details of the experience. Those would be controlled and change with larger world trends and patterns (which could be influenced by player activity). AT the highest level you probably would need some GM controlled tuning/adjustments to keep the whole system from falling apart (trying to write a program to do it trouble-free would be too much work)

You have a instance bubbles and build what you need in it for whatever the quest is (or even just random encounters) The bubble is on whatever part of the world it needs to be and its border can be seemless. Scripted events/dialog/explanations can be part of the larger template with numerous substitution possibilities/alternate factors. Quest givers/intermediate checkpoints/target areas can be generated and worked phase by phase. These themselves are triggered by the larger game plot lines that give the whole system some cohesion as the 'plot' (itself maybe a tree with different paths) . They are tailored to the player.players group and can be regenerated whenever needed (for player playtime flexibility)

You can stay away from any (generalized) Real AI as the local situations are largely choreographed/balanced (and can use conventional FSM scripting methods) and the high level control of the gameflow can just be cellular automaton type behavior (high level entities that guide/flavor the local situations ). Its more varying behavior from the computer controlled entities and the behavior scripts themselves can be heavily template based to improve production efficency and allow tools to streamline creation/debugging/testing.

Why dont games (game companies) do this (and probably wont for a long time) ???

The scripting is about a magnitude more complex (random substitutions that need balance trimming and illogical endcase elimination)
Templates can greatly streamline creation but there will simply be more factors involved that need to be planned for 'situations' and how they fit into the larger game. From what Ive seen alot of the game companies have enough trouble making their simple static scripting work correctly.
Old QA rule - twice as complicated, four times the debugging and game companies think nothing about skimping on QA if they can get away with it.

Players would have to actually learn how to think and pay attention to clues (even when you lay them on thick and they have logs to go back to refresh their memories - might actually need dialog scene replay which might be neat). The game mechanics will have to support a wider range of effects and choices/outcomes of situations (versus the boring fail=die, win=loot) which actually in a more complex world would shape the players future world experience with the consequences(and not just these static paths and tech trees of current games)

You cant so easily have an online wiki tell you exactly what to expect and do for every bit of the game experience (there can be enough combinatorics of situation variations that you wouldnt be likely to experience the same things anyone else did most of the time).

WIll casual players want a more detailed game or just reject anything that isnt the mindless conditioned monkey with the lever and the m&m rewards the current games largely provide?

Later, with better tools, niche games (with much lower player counts) may be a whole lot easier to produce (thing the computer publishing revolution) and we could get this different kind of game. .
--------------------------------------------[size="1"]Ratings are Opinion, not Fact
Instances are the devil. It sounds like you want to play some sort of coop or something. The goal of my game specifically is to be sandbox off rails with actually massive player interaction. I am sacrificing graphics for gameplay in order to reduce computer loads as opposed to minimizing the number of moving objects like creatures and players.
In any case creatures will be a little more intelligent than just charging in. But creating creatures that can fight twitch style with players? Thats just not realistic. They might have simple patterns like range attacking from the farthest possible distance or small fast creatures trying to run if they get too damaged. To be honest though that can create a lot of problems. For instance loot and exp wise, if you are fighting multiple mobs and a lot of them get away, whats the gameplay there? That's why designers tend not to make creatures run. All it means is you waste time and lose rewards. Sure you could make a tracking thing, but what % of people really want to do that?

Instances are the devil. It sounds like you want to play some sort of coop or something. The goal of my game specifically is to be sandbox off rails with actually massive player interaction. I am sacrificing graphics for gameplay in order to reduce computer loads as opposed to minimizing the number of moving objects like creatures and players.
In any case creatures will be a little more intelligent than just charging in. But creating creatures that can fight twitch style with players? Thats just not realistic. They might have simple patterns like range attacking from the farthest possible distance or small fast creatures trying to run if they get too damaged. To be honest though that can create a lot of problems. For instance loot and exp wise, if you are fighting multiple mobs and a lot of them get away, whats the gameplay there? That's why designers tend not to make creatures run. All it means is you waste time and lose rewards. Sure you could make a tracking thing, but what % of people really want to do that?


Use your imagination. Incorporate these behaviours to be more than just being harder for players. Also if something is harder, then you can increase the rewards.
Your evaluation with trouble with loot and xp is based on the "old world" where you advance by killing near stationary evenly distributed creatures.
Use these behaviours to make some targets hard to get. To succesfully take them out, you need some special tactic, often in cooperation with other players. The potential rewards would be so that players want to take these out. There will still be easy targets, but they won't offer much of a reward.
Preventing high reward targets from escaping would be a big part of succesfully getting rewards, while tracking them down would be an optional plan B. They could be easier to catch after chasing them away once, but you waste time. The reward could also be something else than regular foes. You may have to face regular foes on the way though. In Tracking down a rich resource site you may discover that a group of npc's is alreay extracting them. The most powerful foes are in the group that carries resources back to base. Striking when they are gone is a good idea, but if you are discovered, they won't leave.

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