• Announcements

    • khawk

      Download the Game Design and Indie Game Marketing Freebook   07/19/17

      GameDev.net and CRC Press have teamed up to bring a free ebook of content curated from top titles published by CRC Press. The freebook, Practices of Game Design & Indie Game Marketing, includes chapters from The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, and An Architectural Approach to Level Design. The GameDev.net FreeBook is relevant to game designers, developers, and those interested in learning more about the challenges in game development. We know game development can be a tough discipline and business, so we picked several chapters from CRC Press titles that we thought would be of interest to you, the GameDev.net audience, in your journey to design, develop, and market your next game. The free ebook is available through CRC Press by clicking here. The Curated Books The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, Second Edition, by Jesse Schell Presents 100+ sets of questions, or different lenses, for viewing a game’s design, encompassing diverse fields such as psychology, architecture, music, film, software engineering, theme park design, mathematics, anthropology, and more. Written by one of the world's top game designers, this book describes the deepest and most fundamental principles of game design, demonstrating how tactics used in board, card, and athletic games also work in video games. It provides practical instruction on creating world-class games that will be played again and again. View it here. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, by Joel Dreskin Marketing is an essential but too frequently overlooked or minimized component of the release plan for indie games. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing provides you with the tools needed to build visibility and sell your indie games. With special focus on those developers with small budgets and limited staff and resources, this book is packed with tangible recommendations and techniques that you can put to use immediately. As a seasoned professional of the indie game arena, author Joel Dreskin gives you insight into practical, real-world experiences of marketing numerous successful games and also provides stories of the failures. View it here. An Architectural Approach to Level Design This is one of the first books to integrate architectural and spatial design theory with the field of level design. The book presents architectural techniques and theories for level designers to use in their own work. It connects architecture and level design in different ways that address the practical elements of how designers construct space and the experiential elements of how and why humans interact with this space. Throughout the text, readers learn skills for spatial layout, evoking emotion through gamespaces, and creating better levels through architectural theory. View it here. Learn more and download the ebook by clicking here. Did you know? GameDev.net and CRC Press also recently teamed up to bring GDNet+ Members up to a 20% discount on all CRC Press books. Learn more about this and other benefits here.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
shurcool

Comparing My Work to Unreal Engine?

16 posts in this topic

This is obviously a bit of a plug for my video, but I have a question. Once I settle it, I can delete the movie project off my drive and keep the final version only.

[url="http://goo.gl/kgfMB"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ynWOZeW7Zw[/url]

Do you think it's okay for me to compare my work (for my computer science master's degree) against the UnrealEd level editor like that, or would they take it down because I'm violating some copyright laws?

It's okay if you're not a lawyer, I just need a rough estimate of the risk. Thanks!

Edited my question to be more on-point. Edited by shurcool
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]which I believe is better than today's de-facto solution.[/quote]

Better or worse are subjective terms, one can only compare individual parameters. At least that's how academic work should be. Standards these days are pretty low and rarely used to advance the field.

I seem to remember that such thesis requires one to form a hypothesis, then verify it and attempt to confirm it.

Such work therefore proposes a new technique which improves something. Perhaps the time required to place of boxes on flat surface. Then one would run an experiment, define demographic, the usual workflow, compatibility with existing tools and toolchains, evaluate the responses based on some questionnaire, perform a statistical analysis and finally conclude, if results are statistically significant, that technique improves (or not) certain aspect.


Reason I mention this is because lack of scientific method in favor of empty words keeps computer science from being acknowledged as scientific field, at least one of any relevance.

[quote]run into trouble once they see it?[/quote]

No, they won't break your knees or put you to sleep with the fishes.

But it can cause trouble if the technique is advertised as better, but some designer points out there is a very important reason why UED doesn't use it.

And everything else in between. Trouble is again subjective.

As for usage of UED in video, that's up to legal teams all around the world. Or anyone else - YT doesn't disciminate when it receives a takedown notice and simply declares you guilty until proven innocent.

If trouble applies to losing your only copy, then instead consider buying two USB drives and keeping a local copy there.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Like Antheus said better is a relative turn. What if you want to make a map with floating objects, also wall and ceiling objects like lamps need to be floating. The system of ued is a lot more versatile then the one you are presenting. I only think this system is a improvement when it is added to the current system of ued. Like a hotkey that switched you to and from your system to the original system.

In terms of legal, since it's for your degree i don't think you will get into trouble. And like Antheus said, the worsed thing that might happen is to remove this video and you are still able to make a video of how your system works and what the pro's and con's are vs other systems.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1329329437' post='4913416']
[quote]which I believe is better than today's de-facto solution.[/quote]

Better or worse are subjective terms, one can only compare individual parameters. At least that's how academic work should be. Standards these days are pretty low and rarely used to advance the field.

I seem to remember that such thesis requires one to form a hypothesis, then verify it and attempt to confirm it.

Such work therefore proposes a new technique which improves something. Perhaps the time required to place of boxes on flat surface. Then one would run an experiment, define demographic, the usual workflow, compatibility with existing tools and toolchains, evaluate the responses based on some questionnaire, perform a statistical analysis and finally conclude, if results are statistically significant, that technique improves (or not) certain aspect.


Reason I mention this is because lack of scientific method in favor of empty words keeps computer science from being acknowledged as scientific field, at least one of any relevance.[/quote]
As it took me 2 years to do my master's degree, believe me, I know the scientific method. I've used it during that time.

Here, all I said is that I believe this method is better - which is my opinion. I didn't say it is better. However, it is better at certain things, as numerous experiments have shown (as outlined in the results section of my thesis). In fact, it's faster by a factor of 2-3x in terms of task execution time, with somewhat higher accuracy - for specific tasks that we've measured it against traditional systems.

That's why I'm pretty open to just say better, because the difference (in task time) is so highly significant. If it were a difference of 10-15% I would use more scientifically-accurate terms.

[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1329329437' post='4913416']
[quote]run into trouble once they see it?[/quote]

No, they won't break your knees or put you to sleep with the fishes.

But it can cause trouble if the technique is advertised as better, but some designer points out there is a very important reason why UED doesn't use it.

And everything else in between. Trouble is again subjective.

As for usage of UED in video, that's up to legal teams all around the world. Or anyone else - YT doesn't disciminate when it receives a takedown notice and simply declares you guilty until proven innocent.

If trouble applies to losing your only copy, then instead consider buying two USB drives and keeping a local copy there.
[/quote]
I just wonder if I'm breaking any copyright laws by showing a video of UnrealEd. I would prefer if they didn't take down this video.

After all, I could've used any other implementation that uses the standard widgets technique: Valve's Hammer, 3ds Max, Maya, SketchUp, or even my own custom implementation of it. I just happened to use UnrealEd because I liked it.

[quote name='menyo' timestamp='1329330722' post='4913421']
Like Antheus said better is a relative turn. What if you want to make a map with floating objects, also wall and ceiling objects like lamps need to be floating. The system of ued is a lot more versatile then the one you are presenting.[/quote]
Yes, it's quite easy to think of exceptional cases where this interface would lose its advantage. However, if you look at most video games and rendered movies, the vast majority has gravity or other attachment mechanisms and very few objects float in mid-air.

Of course, this sliding system has ways of dealing with exceptions. In the end, you can just fall back to the widgets approach and have the same power/control.

The sliding technique is there to be used when you just want to quickly move an object (or hundreds of objects) somewhere and not worry too much about the exact positioning.

[quote name='menyo' timestamp='1329330722' post='4913421']
I only think this system is a improvement when it is added to the current system of ued. Like a hotkey that switched you to and from your system to the original system.[/quote]
That's exactly how it's meant to be. It's just another tool you can select for moving objects. I don't want to take out or remove functionality. Just replace the default with one that's more optimized to the average use case.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shurcool' timestamp='1329333389' post='4913433']
I just wonder if I'm breaking any copyright laws by showing a video of UnrealEd. I would prefer if they didn't take down this video.
[/quote]

I doubt it they'd do shut it down. If they are at all interested, and if they have any common sense at all, they should adopt your technique. I think it's pretty neat.

Regarding the floating objects comment. That's a pretty easy workaround. Right-click the object in question, check mark "Apply gravity".

There's no snap tool on Unreal Ed? It's pretty common in Photoshop/Illustrator and other drawing/designing apps.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='alnite' timestamp='1329358552' post='4913541']
I doubt it they'd do shut it down. If they are at all interested, and if they have any common sense at all, they should adopt your technique. I think it's pretty neat.
[/quote]
Thanks. :) I hope for the same thing.

Once you figure out a few key details, the implementation becomes pretty trivial.

I'm hoping to get around to getting it closer to a free plug-able library, so it's easier for more people to reuse it. The API should be fairly simple: it only needs to be provided access to viewport information, and a few ways to render the geometry into an offscreen buffer.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One thing that might make you sound cocky in your video to people who use UDK is that there is a "snap to grid" function in UDK. As long as your models are properly sized, snapping to grid is probably the fastest way to place objects in a scene.

Not that your work is trivial, I would just highly caution against saying it's "better".

I doubt epic didn't have a reason for doing it this way, and claiming 'better' opens you up for the criticism of, "Yours is better in X scenario, but in Y scenario, which is the case 95% of the time, our way is better." Semantics can be very important as far as not offending people goes.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]I just wonder if I'm breaking any copyright laws by showing a video of UnrealEd. I would prefer if they didn't take down this video.[/quote]

Problem with copyright is that it's not YT enforcing it. Takedowns are also not subject to usual laws or trial.

YT receives a takedown notice from anyone, claiming they own the copyright. In order to avoid prosecution and delisting from DNS, they voluntarily comply.

Note that there is no usual due process involved. There are no courts involved, there is no need for proof. All it takes is for someone to fill out a form. "Someone" - there is no need to prove ownership of anything, nor detail or prove actual violation.

For several related experiences, [url="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3597025"]see this recent thread[/url].

Nothing is in any way related to what the content is. It could be 2 minutes of black screen with no audio.


Conclusion here is:
- If the video has any value whatsoever, or better yet, if it's not completely disposable, keep a local copy. Any online service may at any point remove it.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
One thing that might make you sound cocky in your video to people who use UDK is that there is a "snap to grid" function in UDK. As long as your models are properly sized, snapping to grid is probably the fastest way to place objects in a scene.[/quote]
Snap to grid can be helpful to align objects more precisely, but I doubt it'd be faster IMO.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
Not that your work is trivial, I would just highly caution against saying it's "better".[/quote]
Yeah, by now I'm starting to see it's better for me to shut up and let the demonstration speak for itself. I don't seem to make things any better when I explain the motivation behind the Slide technique and the weak points of widget ways.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
I doubt epic didn't have a reason for doing it this way[/quote]
I'm sure it's very much related to the fact the original UnrealEd was made more than 10 years ago, and back then there were limited advances in 3D UIs. And Epic probably never allocated enough resources to redoing something that's already done, because I'm sure there are always more important things (in their view) for them to do.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Antheus' timestamp='1329410997' post='4913696']
Conclusion here is:
- If the video has any value whatsoever, or better yet, if it's not completely disposable, keep a local copy. Any online service may at any point remove it.
[/quote]
Thanks. Of course, I'll be keeping a local copy of the final compressed video. What I don't want to keep is the edited video project and the original source footage.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shurcool' timestamp='1329412165' post='4913702']

Thanks. Of course, I'll be keeping a local copy of the final compressed video. What I don't want to keep is the edited video project and the original source footage.
[/quote]

Because two 4GB USB keys are so expensive?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shurcool' timestamp='1329412105' post='4913701']
Snap to grid can be helpful to align objects more precisely, but I doubt it'd be faster IMO.[/quote]
I don't think it would be that much slower for someone that knows what they are doing. It's approximately 3 clicks to get it exactly where you want it anyway.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
Not that your work is trivial, I would just highly caution against saying it's "better".[/quote]
Yeah, by now I'm starting to see it's better for me to shut up and let the demonstration speak for itself. I don't seem to make things any better when I explain the motivation behind the Slide technique and the weak points of widget ways.

[quote][quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
I doubt epic didn't have a reason for doing it this way[/quote]
I'm sure it's very much related to the fact the original UnrealEd was made more than 10 years ago, and back then there were limited advances in 3D UIs. And Epic probably never allocated enough resources to redoing something that's already done, because I'm sure there are always more important things (in their view) for them to do.
[/quote]
I'm sure Epic hasn't thought of UI/Productivity improvements in the last decade.

Out of curiosity, how does your demo handle complex/convex geometry?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329415726' post='4913717']
I don't think it would be that much slower for someone that knows what they are doing. It's approximately 3 clicks to get it exactly where you want it anyway.[/quote]
It's really hard to discuss things like this over the internet via text. So much easier, and more convincing to show a live demo. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
Out of curiosity, how does your demo handle complex/convex geometry?
[/quote]
Equally well. It's very general, and works with any set of triangles defined to be objects. This is a common concern, and it's a direct consequence of me showing simple geometry in most of my demos. The reason for that is because my modelling efforts were the bottleneck, not the Sliding algorithm hehe.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If anyone's interested, you can glance over my [url="http://goo.gl/OzFpr"]thesis pdf[/url] that describes Slide in excruciatingly full detail.

Also, in appendix E you can find a very early pilot study that compared an early version of slide against an XYZ-axes method, with the associated result graphs (page 175). It's not unusual to see 2-3x difference in task completion time. However, this result was known from many previous studies going back as far as 2005~, and taken as a given. Hence it wasn't my main goal to replicate those results, but rather to work on other aspects of the system.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shurcool' timestamp='1329426539' post='4913748']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1329399762' post='4913647']
Out of curiosity, how does your demo handle complex/convex geometry?
[/quote]
Equally well. It's very general, and works with any set of triangles defined to be objects. This is a common concern, and it's a direct consequence of me showing simple geometry in most of my demos. The reason for that is because my modelling efforts were the bottleneck, not the Sliding algorithm hehe.
[/quote]

What did you export your geometry from to begin with? If you can import geometry from Maya or Blender, you can use the stock Teapot/MonkeyHead models that come packaged with each.

That would be much more impressive than blocks imo. Almost to the point of doing yourself a disservice by not getting some complex meshes.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a pretty basic loader that opens .dae files (Collada format) that I export from SketchUp. It doesn't do advanced things like materials, textures, just plain geometry. If Blender exports as .dae, then what you suggested is possible. But it's almost much easier just to get some random hi-poly model from SketchUp's 3D Warehouse.

I already have a few more complicated scenes that I used to test various things. I just used the scene with boxes because I wanted a task where you just have to move around a lot of small objects, rather than one highly detailed one. Of course, I could've used highly detailed boxes, but that didn't happen.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='shurcool' timestamp='1329428957' post='4913758']
I have a pretty basic loader that opens .dae files (Collada format) that I export from SketchUp. It doesn't do advanced things like materials, textures, just plain geometry. If Blender exports as .dae, then what you suggested is possible. But it's almost much easier just to get some random hi-poly model from SketchUp's 3D Warehouse.
[/quote]

[url="http://code.blender.org/index.php/2010/12/collada-importexport-team/"]http://code.blender.org/index.php/2010/12/collada-importexport-team/[/url]
It looks like it might be native o.o
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0