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swiftcoder

0x10c

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swiftcoder    18432
So I'm a little sad about Notch's [url="http://0x10c.com/"]new 0x10c project[/url].

Mostly, I'm sad that I'm not the one developing it. There's been a half-finished design document for a very similar concept lying on my hard drive for the past couple of years. *sighs*

I'm curious however, whether you think that there is a market for a game that seems to consist heavily of assembly programming an emulated CPU? I know that many players of MineCraft/Dwarf Fortress/LittleBigPlanet build the most crazily elaborate mechanisms (pretty sure I've seen a CPU emulator in at least one of the above). But technical skills on that level can't actually be a majority of the player base. Can they?

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JTippetts    12951
Personally, I think the programming aspects of it will inspire a small but particularly fervent branch of the hardcore, and the rest of the playerbase will either ignore it or simply download programs others have written, and not try programming themselves. The same contingent of players that used redstone to build elaborate machinery, computing machines, and even crude CPUs. That particular segment of the Minecraft community was tiny but very visible due to the sheer "coolness" of what they did. For every one guy with the tech skills to build a CPU out of torches and redstone, there are about 5,000 players that spend their time building penises out of obsidian or saddling and riding pigs. I think we'll see the same in 0x10c.

I'm interested to see how well this game does. To me, it's immensely appealing, but to my Minecraft-playing nephews, it's "meh". But then, they fall firmly in the "riding pigs" camp.

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Waterlimon    4398
Most of the player base cant probably use it, but reading the site, i think you are able to go without. Instead, the computer is something that will keep long time players who have learned to use it playing, and it will also attract people who have knowledge of programming/scripting.

Normal people like building mechanics out of components and stuff (i think), but if you know how something like that works, you can get as much fun out of it and it will probably be a lot simpler and cheaper to run.

Also it will get more people interested in programming, which probably is good (dem doing awesome stuff i wanted to do after 10 years >:c).




inb4MinecraftEmulatorInDCPU-16orWhateverItWasWith8BitRedstoneComputerRunningPong



I wonder if there will be player communication, allowing us to design fancy encrypted communication protocols, create an internet and hack into our enemies systems.

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Mike.Popoloski    3258
I've been contemplating a ship-building game for a while now. I considered allowing players to write scripts to drive behaviors, but I was more interested in developing components and letting players put them into their ship.

It's kind of annoying that if I develop it now I'm going to look unoriginal.

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laztrezort    1058
I also have some old code/design ideas that sound somewhat similar to this idea - although I'm not really clear on what exactly the gameplay would be from the description. Is this the type of game that all programmers have thought about creating, but never got around to it?

I don't know about general appeal, but personally I'm interested in where this is going.

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Waterlimon    4398
[quote name='Mike.Popoloski' timestamp='1333814421' post='4929062']
I've been contemplating a ship-building game for a while now. I considered allowing players to write scripts to drive behaviors, but I was more interested in developing components and letting players put them into their ship.

It's kind of annoying that if I develop it now I'm going to look unoriginal.
[/quote]
Im making a game where you can build machines out of components. Though its complex so im not sure if itll ever get done (i couldnt figure out a simpler game idea that would give me motivation :c)
It also should have editable terrain... The components are going to be ones that input and output stuff (which might be transferred into lets say thrust if the output isnt connected to an input) Like a processor would take in a large amount of signals and output something, and a motor would take in energy of some sort and output torque into a joint component.

The aim is to make a playground where you can do anything, with some form of multiplayer (probably just for friends as i think i need to trust the clients for computing the components and stuff :P).

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swiftcoder    18432
[quote name='laztrezort' timestamp='1333816101' post='4929076']
I also have some old code/design ideas that sound somewhat similar to this idea - although I'm not really clear on what exactly the gameplay would be from the description. Is this the type of game that all programmers have thought about creating, but never got around to it?[/quote]
Mine was a tad more specific than that.

Early designs called for a scriptable 'data core' at the heart of each ship, which could be controlled via a (visual drag-n-drop) scripting language to modify AI behaviour and communication protocols, simple firewalls, etc.

Plus I have already implemented landing on planetary surfaces, basic space combat, etc. - not that I'm ever likely to finish said game, but c'est le vie.

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laztrezort    1058
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1333817701' post='4929084']
Mine was a tad more specific than that.
[/quote]

Yeah, I had never gotten over the preliminary hump of actually designing the language, but I did have a fairly fleshed out idea of ship design and combat mechanics (which were inspired by the old Traveler and Star Frontiers rpgs). This was many years ago, though, and I'd never revisited the project since. Also, being just an armchair programmer myself, it would surely be much too big of a bite for me to take on.

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Bacterius    13165
[quote]but c'est l[color=#ff0000]a[/color] vie.[/quote]
[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]


I agree, only a few select people will be either able or willing to take advantage of the CPU emulator (few people have the knowledge, few people have the experience, and even fewer people have both - and then how many of this crowd will actually be playing the game?). But I suppose you'll see websites such as "planet0x10c.net" (or maybe universe instead of planet) pop up which will offer downloads for stuff other people have done, so it will probably work out well in the end.

Of course, it depends how ubiquitous the CPU emulator is in the game. I mean in Minecraft redstone wasn't everywhere and you could get by without using it or just using it to power a dumb iron door in the simplest way possible, so it made it possible for a large audience to play the game without being reminded every second how much of the game they are missing (which would probably be a turn-off for many people)

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='Mike.Popoloski' timestamp='1333814421' post='4929062']
I've been contemplating a ship-building game for a while now. I considered allowing players to write scripts to drive behaviors, but I was more interested in developing components and letting players put them into their ship.

It's kind of annoying that if I develop it now I'm going to look unoriginal.
[/quote]

Hehe, i've had the same idea aswell, its not an easy one to implement though (Takes alot of work) and might possibly only have a niche appeal so the financial success of it is questionable (as with all "new" ideas). Most aspects of 0x10c have been done before though, (It sounds a bit like a cross between Space Rangers and ATRobots) so its not really groundbreaking in any way. (It might become the first game with a programming element to really hit the mainstream market though)

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MJP    19755
I think someone would have to pay me a lot of money for me to want to crank out some 16-bit assembly that gets uploaded on virtual floppy discs.

Maybe that will be a new market that emerges from this game: freelance programmers-for-hire to make you an awesome spaceship program. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

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swiftcoder    18432
[quote name='MJP' timestamp='1333907530' post='4929363']
I think someone would have to pay me a lot of money for me to want to crank out some 16-bit assembly that gets uploaded on virtual floppy discs.[/quote]
It will take a whole week for someone to produce a compiler for this...

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ChaosEngine    5185
[quote name='Koobazaur' timestamp='1333946413' post='4929456']
Yeep, I can see python-to-0x10c
[/quote]

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[quote name='Koobazaur' timestamp='1333946413' post='4929456']
c++ to 0x10c coming out after some time.
[/quote]

Possible, but a lot more work. C++ is notoriously difficult to parse.

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Krohm    5030
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1333812936' post='4929053']Mostly, I'm sad that I'm not the one developing it. There's been a half-finished design document for a very similar concept lying on my hard drive for the past couple of years. *sighs*[/quote]100% agreed. Me and a friend tried to design a graphical scripting system (similar in concept to hydraulics and Abstract Shade Trees) in the past. We didn't have the time to make it work, much less to develop the world running around it.

I think this is very hardcore. I still don't understand why someone would want to spend his time this way when he can learn something real instead. Such as a real language in this case. Or a proper DCC tool. ?_?

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Hodgman    51237
[quote name='Krohm' timestamp='1334043053' post='4929805']I think this is very hardcore. I still don't understand why someone would want to spend his time this way when he can learn something real instead. Such as a real language in this case. Or a proper DCC tool. ?_?[/quote]I'm not sure why... but it is a form of 'play'.
In Minecraft when I discovered redstone wires, I spent a whole day building a tape-deck large enough to encode the string "[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Welcome! [/font]", a motor to rotate the tape, a 4x3 pixel LCD to display the scrolling text, and a 3x3 pixel font... It was a really useless exercise ([i]like everything in Minecraft [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img][/i]), but for some reason it was a fun exploration experience, like getting your first electronics kit or BASIC interpreter as a kid.
If you translate this experience over to a multiplayer world where these creations are actually useful to gameplay, I imagine it's only going to work better. If there's the option to trade in-game currency/items with other player in exchange for their programs, then the small group of players who do find this fun will have even more incentive to build these contraptions.

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='Krohm' timestamp='1334043053' post='4929805']
I still don't understand why someone would want to spend his time this way when he can learn something real instead. Such as a real language in this case. Or a proper DCC tool. ?_?
[/quote]

Most of the problem solving skills transfer between fields, things aren't worthless just because they are learned in the context of a game and learning programming in the context of a game can be alot more fun than doing it the traditional way, as this will use a low level language players will learn how to break a problem down into extremely tiny chunks which is a very valuable skill to have even when doing high level programming(Breaking down a big problem into small chunks isn't all that different from breaking down a small problem into instructionsized chunks).

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Bacterius    13165
[quote]I think this is very hardcore. I still don't understand why someone would want to spend his time this way when he can learn something real instead. Such as a real language in this case. Or a proper DCC tool. ?_?[/quote]
See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.

Perhaps playing such a game would encourage some people to actually give a shot at learning programming? I don't know, it was just an idea floating in the back of my head... it's probably been done before (as 99% of ideas have) but it may have some educational value even if there's no business profit in it. Many people don't realize they have a talent until they're inadvertently drawn into it.

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japro    887
I think this may actually be better than the visual programming approach. Basically I would assume the people that are capable of programming this kind of assembly will be creating components/programs that will end up on community sites for use by the non-programmer-people. So the "hardcore" guys get to hack in their game and get recognition for it and everyone else can have fun with a ever expanding game and new "modules" or whatever.

Also: I totally had the idea to program components and build space ships from it too [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]. I think it's a pretty obvious concept for programmers to come up with actually...

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swiftcoder    18432
[quote name='Bacterius' timestamp='1334050320' post='4929836']
See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.[/quote]
A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's [url="http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics"]Tactics[/url] - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.

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AoS    935
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1334060362' post='4929873']
[quote name='Bacterius' timestamp='1334050320' post='4929836']
See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.[/quote]
A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's [url="http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics"]Tactics[/url] - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.
[/quote]

I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.

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Talroth    3247
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334107042' post='4930066']
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1334060362' post='4929873']
[quote name='Bacterius' timestamp='1334050320' post='4929836']
See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.[/quote]
A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's [url="http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics"]Tactics[/url] - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.
[/quote]

I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.
[/quote]

Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.

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Bacterius    13165
[quote]Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.[/quote]
True but it depends on what you are allowed to make your avatar do while you are not there to control it. It can range from the basic "make it an unkillable shopseller with your own list of wares" which is hardly griefable, save perhaps for the location at which you put your avatar, to a complex scripting system (where people could lead a pack of enemies into your avatar and thus indirectly kill it while you are absent). It isn't an easy problem to solve, but then griefing has been around forever, and a lot of heuristic or community solutions exist (not the least of which is to simply use a whitelist as you suggested).

And you may also inadvertently make it so that a well-scripted avatar actually plays better than the average human player (I wouldn't be surprised...), which also introduces a whole lot of problems, especially in MMO's and such competitive games.

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AoS    935
[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1334149379' post='4930222']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334107042' post='4930066']
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1334060362' post='4929873']
[quote name='Bacterius' timestamp='1334050320' post='4929836']
See I was thinking the other day about some kind of concept where you actually script your own AI, e.g. you control a bunch of characters and you can script their own individual AI using some kind of language (like choose a default target, what do to if the healer is being attacked, and being able to communicate with the other character's AI's and giving/receiving orders, etc...). Kind of like robocode but less academic.[/quote]
A number of 'hardcore' RPGs already allow something like this. For example, take a look at Dragon Age's [url="http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics"]Tactics[/url] - it's nowhere near a full scripting language, but it allows you to quite significantly change the behaviour of allied NPCs.
[/quote]

I have been designing, and doing a little programming on, an mmorpg where the player avatars never log off and you can set yours to various behaviors, or allow others to use it while you are offline. You can set various general and specific orders, and there are default settings, like defend your town if its attacked or handle shopkeeping. Complex stuff might involve gathering resources or following along on raiding or something.

What will probably end up happening is that I will say fuck it too much work and just make a single player game with AI and play it by myself. Because as everyone here would be glad to tell me, mmorpgs are almost impossible alone.
[/quote]

Try an LMORPG? A Low-Multiplayer-Online. Expected to have no more than 100 users on a server, more likely 20-50 on average.

But personally I think the idea of "Always Logged in", while a great theory, is likely going to prove exceptionally hard to pull off due to griefers. In a large scale game, people would find ways to abuse any automated system you put in, and force players to do something to have a negative impact on the character while they're not there to stop it. So doing it in a smaller scale environment where users can have more control over the server may be better. If they're allowed to host their own invite only servers, then the problem of griefers fall on their shoulders, not yours. After all, they were the ones who invited them.
[/quote]

Well the game has no PvP, and the PvE is cooperative, essentially its the players vs the environment and fucking up another player hurts you too. Also I was thinking of a restricted server, ie you would have to be vouched for by current players to join. And its not really commercial, so small playerbase is no biggy. Also not anyone can just walk up and use your avatar, you can list first the things it is allowed to do, and second which players are allowed to use it for which things.

I guess someone could still grief if they worked hard but instant perma ban kinda makes it so you would have to spend months building up a character to get one small griefing chance.

This would never work in an open sign ups commercial game of course.

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