• Announcements

    • khawk

      Download the Game Design and Indie Game Marketing Freebook   07/19/17

      GameDev.net and CRC Press have teamed up to bring a free ebook of content curated from top titles published by CRC Press. The freebook, Practices of Game Design & Indie Game Marketing, includes chapters from The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, and An Architectural Approach to Level Design. The GameDev.net FreeBook is relevant to game designers, developers, and those interested in learning more about the challenges in game development. We know game development can be a tough discipline and business, so we picked several chapters from CRC Press titles that we thought would be of interest to you, the GameDev.net audience, in your journey to design, develop, and market your next game. The free ebook is available through CRC Press by clicking here. The Curated Books The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, Second Edition, by Jesse Schell Presents 100+ sets of questions, or different lenses, for viewing a game’s design, encompassing diverse fields such as psychology, architecture, music, film, software engineering, theme park design, mathematics, anthropology, and more. Written by one of the world's top game designers, this book describes the deepest and most fundamental principles of game design, demonstrating how tactics used in board, card, and athletic games also work in video games. It provides practical instruction on creating world-class games that will be played again and again. View it here. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, by Joel Dreskin Marketing is an essential but too frequently overlooked or minimized component of the release plan for indie games. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing provides you with the tools needed to build visibility and sell your indie games. With special focus on those developers with small budgets and limited staff and resources, this book is packed with tangible recommendations and techniques that you can put to use immediately. As a seasoned professional of the indie game arena, author Joel Dreskin gives you insight into practical, real-world experiences of marketing numerous successful games and also provides stories of the failures. View it here. An Architectural Approach to Level Design This is one of the first books to integrate architectural and spatial design theory with the field of level design. The book presents architectural techniques and theories for level designers to use in their own work. It connects architecture and level design in different ways that address the practical elements of how designers construct space and the experiential elements of how and why humans interact with this space. Throughout the text, readers learn skills for spatial layout, evoking emotion through gamespaces, and creating better levels through architectural theory. View it here. Learn more and download the ebook by clicking here. Did you know? GameDev.net and CRC Press also recently teamed up to bring GDNet+ Members up to a 20% discount on all CRC Press books. Learn more about this and other benefits here.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Stormynature

Outside the box - different professions that would work within an MMO

60 posts in this topic

[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334154250' post='4930257']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334153654' post='4930254']
I don't think coding it would actually be that tricky.

set(student-teacher bond)
if (both crafting)
teacher exp multiplier=1.1x
student exp multiplier=1.4x
student project result=1.2x
[/quote]

Sadly my coding skills died when they upgraded the abacus and Augusta abandoned me for Charles [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/sad.png[/img].



I wants more professions [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[/quote]

Well in part of my earlier posts I described how to have a nearly infinite set of professions.

As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver
A lot of others but I think you get the point.
The only limit is your imagination, and possibly your graphics programming skills.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334154627' post='4930261']
As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver
[/quote]

Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please :P

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334154957' post='4930265']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334154627' post='4930261']
As a list of semi-specific skills I am including and encourage others to include as well:
Climbing
Ship Sailing
Airship Sailing
Mechanics/Repairer
Maigc(contains like 25-100 separate schools you could focus on plus combinations)
Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Trap Maker
Poison Maker
Acid Maker
Metal Forger
Wood Carver
Oil maker/User
Breeder
Food Maker
Stone Worker
Vehicle Maker
Ship Maker
Airship Maker
Builder
Engineer
Landscaping
Architecture
Artist
Fabric Maker
Thread Maker
Clothier
Shop Keeper
Teacher
Pot Maker
Enchanter
Engraver
[/quote]

Excellent. Now what mini-game (time-sink) variation for each one please [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

I of course don't expect you to do that, but more am looking for rounded posts in that sense or aspects like your ealier post that bring depth to the entire discussion.
[/quote]

Actually a lot of those skills do have minigames. Sailing and Flying for instance. Alchemy, Forging, Making Alloys and so forth. Climbing has a mini-game, too.

For forging its this:
You make a bar of metal. You heat it up. Then you beat on it and each hit has an effect, mainly flattening. You might want to fold the metal, or make an edge and so forth. You have heating and cooling cycles limited stamina, ie how long you can keep beating before the item is crafted, and so forth.

For climbing its this:
You have ropes or chains or something flexible. You have the option of special shoes or gloves and harnesses. You also have pitons and a hammer. Based on your skill, modified by the lead climber of course, and the steepness of the face plus maybe its handhold score(which you can change by carving handholds) you have a small chance of falling every time you try to move. If you fall you drop down to your last piton just like real climbing.
As I said you can modify difficulty by carving handholds, this was something done by Native Americans at Mesa Verde. You can also leave your pitons and ropes up. You could build and leave a rope ladder. In theory, although it would take a long time, you could carve out steps or the inside of the mountain and whatever other things I have forgotten. I suppose technically this stuff is more crafting than mini-game but the piton and rope part is a mini-game.

Some things don't really have mini-games. For instance art. You just paint. Or sew on shinies to clothes or w/e. Carving sorta has a minigame, its more like a special screen that is a specialized modeling program.

Alchemy is part mini-game and part research. Should you grind or powder something? Boil it? The minigame involves mixing it, adding water, boiling, maybe dealing with precipitates. Did you add an ingredient at the right time, get the right concentration? Stuff like that.

I suppose clothing is a mini-game in a sense. Stitching and knitting and what not.

A lot of things are less mini-games and more special user interfaces. Construction for instance. You place all the building materials, say bricks. You could also have prefabs sorta like a modelling program where you can make a group of bricks and place that group instead of each single brick. And so forth. Ship and airship building works pretty much like making buildings.

I could write you a 1000000 word book on the whole system or you could ask about any specific professions and how I am implementing them, or what some implementations I am not personally using are. Or you could not ask anything. Its all fine with me.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334011625' post='4929692']
I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.
[/quote]

Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334157147' post='4930273']
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334011625' post='4929692']
I forgot to mention -- I am interested in the idea of how these professions suggested would be utilisable as effective and ongoing timesinks (without the drudgery that seems prevalent in a lot of the existing MMO's) i.e. a mini-game within a game but as a profession.
[/quote]

Mostly it's my fault for the confusion. I used the word mini-game as a coverall term but meaning a larger expansion then necessarily locking it down to simplistic actions or limited interactions i.e. more depth, not grinding persay but rather creativity bought into the processes as well involving the pplayer in different and exciting ways.
[/quote]

I mean, most professions in real life are drudgery. So I am not sure what you are expecting. I thought that climbing example was a good way of providing what you want. Its has the climbing game, plus modifying terrain plus setting up structures to make things easier for others. Infrastructure type stuff. You could combine climbing and ladders and stairs with building bridges. Ie creating faster means of travel through improvements.

I suppose we could use the ship example again.

So you have the sailing minigame, ie reading winds, putting sails in right place to get speed, rudder and so forth. Then you have all the maintaining of ships for damage and wear. You have people in the crows nest looking out for land. You can also learn the seas. Are there currents? Shoals? Reefs? Where are good coves for hiding? What monsters and animals live in what area? Icebergs?
So that is the life of sailors/captains/crew.
Then for just sailing you have stuff like building the ships, finding materials, power, vs cargo, vs speed.
You constantly try to build better ships. Try to find optimal sailing routes. How can I get there faster? What are good trade routes. What ports have what goods and need what goods?
Defending from attacks by monsters and pirates.

This is essentially a 3d real time version of Patrician. Patrician went all the way to V. So clearly people love these games and play them for a long time.
And this version is more complex and time consuming. You can do all the same stuff and more. And that is just sea travel.

Is that the kind of thing you mean? The time sink is provided because of better ships and materials always being gathered. Also you can find better routes if you can fight off monsters or maybe some place has winds that are only good for a bit and then blow you backwards or there are storms. So as you get faster ships you can time it so that you avoid the storms and cross winds and thus take a shorter and thus faster route.

You could play the entire game just being a boat captain on a trading vessel.

You could do the same with airships or land caravans.

Your question is sorta vague.

What does involving the player mean exactly? Is creativity problem solving? Art? Music?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334155729' post='4930267']
For climbing its this:
You have ropes or chains or something flexible. You have the option of special shoes or gloves and harnesses. You also have pitons and a hammer. Based on your skill, modified by the lead climber of course, and the steepness of the face plus maybe its handhold score(which you can change by carving handholds) you have a small chance of falling every time you try to move. If you fall you drop down to your last piton just like real climbing.
As I said you can modify difficulty by carving handholds, this was something done by Native Americans at Mesa Verde. You can also leave your pitons and ropes up. You could build and leave a rope ladder. In theory, although it would take a long time, you could carve out steps or the inside of the mountain and whatever other things I have forgotten. I suppose technically this stuff is more crafting than mini-game but the piton and rope part is a mini-game.
[/quote]

Is workable I agree

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334158097' post='4930278']
You could play the entire game just being a boat captain on a trading vessel.
[/quote]

Absolutely - I made an analogy earlier to people playing WoW just to play with the Auction House.

What I am trying to do is steer the thread back onto track in seeking detailed responses. Admittedly I tend to takes aspects out of some people's posts but can you argue that in your posts that you are necessarily providing the detail in similar level to the 1st page including your intial post, which while talking in context of your game still bought valid material to the thread's discussion. A near infinite list of professions is easy enough to complete and moreover it is easy enough to create activities for each of them but in the context of trying to find thoughtful and meaningful posts I don't want what can be easily presented but rather imaginative, relevant, new ways of thinking "Out of the Box" ideas the restriction upon which is that there is no restriction other than it be in keeping with the theme of the thread. I am not trying to piss you off. Indeed you have made valid contributions to the thread. What I am not wanting though, is to lose focus with the thread and have it transform into some other animal, which our current conversation threatens to do.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not mad, mostly just confuzzled.

Are you not asking for different professions? Or a description of a specific one? A profession that no one has used before?

Would the teacher one be an example? That's not really a profession but an extra activity that affects all professions. Uncommon implementations of old professions?

I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334160607' post='4930288']
I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.
[/quote]
This!

Now expand a profession out of it in such a way that you think a player might enjoy that profession for inordinately long periods of time inside an MMO where they might also raid, pvp etc. i.e. create a functional profession that is enticing to the player, useful in the larger aspect of an MMO (genre is irrelevant). Be creative. You might reference back to Jefffereytitans posts and my responses with regards one way that might be handled.

The teacher one as you go through the posts has probably evolved into a secondary i.e. common to all players, type of profession which to be honest was a result of your initial post.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334161152' post='4930291']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1334160607' post='4930288']
I was thinking about getting some more sciencey stuff in games. Like using simplified organic chemistry to implement poisons and acids.
[/quote]
This!

Now expand a profession out of it in such a way that you think a player might enjoy that profession for inordinately long periods of time inside an MMO where they might also raid, pvp etc. i.e. create a functional profession that is enticing to the player, useful in the larger aspect of an MMO (genre is irrelevant). Be creative. You might reference back to Jefffereytitans posts and my responses with regards one way that might be handled.

The teacher one as you go through the posts has probably evolved into a secondary i.e. common to all players, type of profession which to be honest was a result of your initial post.
[/quote]

Okay thats a little more clear. You are more concerned about new mechanics rather than professions. An if I add this mechanic what possible things can it be used for.

The orgo chem thing is a subset of alchemy. Basically creatures have various body chemistry with stuff in their blood and cells and some chemicals can react. So you try to find a way to do that. Typical stuff like cyanide blocking cell respiration. So you could maybe test or sample blood and then try to find a chemical which can mess with their chemistry. Also some animals may have magic energy in their system and it may nullify poison so maybe you get some Otataral style dust to counteract that and let your poison work. Conversely something might be killed merely by applying the anti magic dust if its critical to life systems.

You may also make antidotes and such this way. Further you could create potions that improve health and growth and nutrition, say you were a breeder and wanted to raise new plants or animals.


I actually did design a really complex magic system with interactions with crafting and enchanting that was quite unique compared to what I've seen discussed or implemented. but I think I have taken up enough posts here. I want to see what other people have come up with.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334011625' post='4929692']
Using the above example as a guide I would be interested in other “crafting” professions can people think of that could work in a similar vein
[/quote]
Not exactly breeding based, but something different.
Have you played world of goo?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW00TRa0_qo&feature=related[/media]
Imagine crafting a sword with goo balls. You are given a frame (walls enclosing a sword frame?). It will be put to certain tests (particulary tests for hardness and durability), and the results of these tests will determine the stats of the sword.

A crafter will have to gain profficiency crafting a type of item. The higher his level in crafting that type of item, the more/better goo balls he has at his disposal. Still it is up to the player to actually craft a good design, and it can't be copied, meaning every single sword will have to be handcrafted in this way.
The best designs will be available on the net, but there would still be minor variations. An unusually good result would sell for a lot. It's also possible to make the best designs quite difficult to accomplish, so that many might decide to use a suboptimal design which has a higher chance of actually producing something useful, so that they won't waste expensive raw materials.

For swords, I see general types of swords. [i]sword, long sword, two-hander, dagge[/i]r (can be many more). Each of these types will have their own frame. Additionaly they will be subdivided into group of materials used. This could be wood, iron, obsidian or steel swords. When creating an iron sword, you will be able to use your iron (in the form of goo balls) to craft your iron sword. The higher level the crafter is, the more goo balls can max be used (and pherhaps some other stuff).

Items with cheap materials (wood), could be given a frame with walls, acting as a very good support structure. Items with good materials could get a gradually poorer support structure. However, you also gain means to help your structure. It could be baloons, keeping your structure from falling, or goo balls (materials) which is meant for building your own support structure (probably much cheaper than the actual materials used in the sword).

A score could be given to the final product, and they could be named [i]"fine iron sword"[/i], [i]"dull iron sword"[/i] and so on. You could also give an iron sword, a slightly different graphical appearance based on it's quality.

I've thought of possible mini games for crafting before without coming up with something very good, but I believe this world of goo mixed with crafting has good potential.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One idea i had soem time ago (which i can't really do because i barely make text games right know), is to actually let the player create the scheme of a weapon/tool/spells/whatever, just like the breeding idea but generalized.

Just creating some basic variables like density of a metal and how long the weapon is, you allow the players to be the creative entity, and not having to go and create an creative AI someone mentioned, you let the player be what he wants, giving him the ability to truly craft something, and possibly stories too (dwark fortress is an example where you can create lots of things from the softcoded part of the game, and could give ideas).

Another idea is making the crafting system more player-oriented, instead of giving skills as the only way to be better, mix up some player interaction, so that, for example, hammering the sword at the right time sharpens it better and gives a better attack bonus.

EDIT: Don't really know how, but i found this pen and paper RPG where you can build spells and machines, it's pretty nice and maybe gives a way to implement what i said.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='ImmoralAtheist' timestamp='1334166844' post='4930325']
Imagine crafting a sword with goo balls. You are given a frame (walls enclosing a sword frame?). It will be put to certain tests (particulary tests for hardness and durability), and the results of these tests will determine the stats of the sword.
[/quote]

I haven't actually played goo balls - sounds interesting - By effectively collecting the right materials you could unlock certain amounts and type of goo balls that could be used in such a way. I do like the idea of a structured shape mapping system - creation professions would mix well with this - how this would translate to new design creation as in mapping an object into the game will probably be interesting.
[quote name='hughinn' timestamp='1334168691' post='4930330']
Just creating some basic variables like density of a metal and how long the weapon is, you allow the players to be the creative entity, and not having to go and create an creative AI someone mentioned, you let the player be what he wants, giving him the ability to truly craft something, and possibly stories too (dwark fortress is an example where you can create lots of things from the softcoded part of the game, and could give ideas).

Another idea is making the crafting system more player-oriented, instead of giving skills as the only way to be better, mix up some player interaction, so that, for example, hammering the sword at the right time sharpens it better and gives a better attack bonus.
[/quote]

Yeah this sort of creation with recipe of action works well in a lot of ways. Time invested into the creation of a weapon for example should be meaningful without being a slide bar filling up process.

Using a combination of both your ideas into one would be a nice trick to do imo. Either of you have any ideas how you would do that in making of an Axe for example?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
first, i forgot to put the link in the edit part.

http://www.semiautomagic.org/

Now, how to do an axe?

Possibly, you need some quantity of wood for the handle (if you feel like using wood, could be bones or metal) and metal for the cutting part.

You shape the axe in some way following the design, the handle in a separate step if it is a separate part (a wood handle for example), possibly by choosing when to heat the metal, when to hammer it, when to cool it with water, and carving the handle with a knife.

you have to sharpen it to some extent, you have to make sure it's not too sharpened or it would be easy to break in a battle, there's a lot of complexity in you can have, and of course you wouldn't pretend everyone that plays to be an expert crafter, so some things should be made easier.

What could you have? weight of the metal used affecting the movement and strength of the hit in a weapon, density making armors more or less protective, a clear difference between stabbing, slashing and blunt weapons. There's a lot of things that could be done.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah no - I think you missed my point about trying to merge your post with ImmoralAtheist's post about goo balls -- basically a way of implementing both ideas into one cohesive dynamic by which you could make an axe.

Thanks for the link will look through it now. And am an old fan of the D&D systems
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ohh, a mix of world of goo and the idea of creating designs? that'd be nice, and doesn't seem like a difficult idea to implement, each "goo" could be a node in the Axe you said before, possibly with some sort of "design perfection" in a mix of time taken to build the weapon and correcteness in design to get a damage system ranking?
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That works -- as different elements get added each node (either a type or function or combination) could require specific activities related to it - Thanks -- had something in my head but wasn't gelling at all. Probably 5am being the reason. If technically this could be used to create weapon (or other things) models in game for use - it would be an extra-ordinarily powerful tool for consumer created content being utilised.


Edit: Just occured to me before I went to sleep: if the above is feasible then would be interesting it can also bescaled down in such a way as to also effectively decorate weapons armour etc in relief patterns and stylised features. I like this a lot...which means some tech will say "yes we can do it but it will require a really really really hot cup of tea" and you just know those damn tech's don't want "billy tea". :(
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I like it a lot, someone should do it, i'll sit here and wait for it [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will comment the suggestions by hughinn as a mix with the world of goo system as suggested by [i]Stormynature[/i].

[quote name='hughinn' timestamp='1334168691' post='4930330']
Just creating some basic variables like density of a metal and how long the weapon is
[/quote]
It would be possible to customize the sword frame yourself. You could set width and length of the blade, and also how width varies from root to end of the sword. Width could go from broad to narrow as it reaches the tip, or it could maintain most of it's width, and then suddenly lead into a tip at near the end of the sword. Width could also increase. Another is if the blade is curved. You can make it very complex.
The materials could themselves be player crafted/gathered and with unique properties.

Some issues I see with this, is categorizing the different blades. Having a set of different materials (wood, iron, steel, obsidian, etc.) simplifies the categorizing scheme into fixed categories. Additionaly it may be advisable to reduce amount of items with custom parameters. A player will usually have no more than a few swords, but lots of crafting materials. Just picking out the materials you want could be very time consuming (or buying), if every material has custom parameters. I'd imagine that if the sword was unsucessful, then you'd want to salvage the materials (you won't get a full return). Number of items with custom parameters should not be to high.


Also, in the world of goo scenario there will always be minor differences, as you won't place stuff at the exact same location, and also (like in World of goo) the construction can have movements. Actually, I believe the calculations behind this are quite expensive, and something which you probably can't do serverside. The building process may have to be done locally, and once completed the server can test the construction. Locally the construction would be constantly tested so that you yourself can see the attributes realtime. The player would click finish, and a still image of the construction would be taken, which will be used in testing. There are problems with this, as someone could alter the game, so that they sent copies, or slightly altered copies of a very good design.

[quote name='Stormynature' timestamp='1334169252' post='4930332']
Using a combination of both your ideas into one would be a nice trick to do imo. Either of you have any ideas how you would do that in making of an Axe for example?
[/quote]
I don't think "striking the hammer at a certain time" goo ball construction fits well together. Anyways, in the world of goo scenario. An axe could for instance consist of a wooden shaft, and an iron blade. The frame would then require wood goo balls in the shaft area, and iron goo balls in the blade area.
I intended that a goo ball will represent a material. If yoiu have 30 iron materials, and you can use up to 20 iron materials in the axe design, then you will have 20 iron goo balls at your disposal. If you use all 20 iron goo balls when making the axe, then you have consumed 20 iron materials. You now only have 10 iron materials remaining. If you try to make a new axe, you will only have 10 iron goo balls at your disposal which is probably to little to make a decent axe.

When making the design, it should be possible to remove goo balls from the construction. If you notice that some goo balls should be placed differently, then you can remove them, but at the risk of loosing the goo balls you remove. This is however far better than loosing many more goo balls (materials) into something which is doomed to be a bad design.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I apologize, I meant to reply sooner but have been ill the past few days.

[quote]@Kyan
@AltarofScience

I wish you both well in your game/project - they both sound fun[/quote]
Thank you, and likewise to you and yours should you also have something in the works.

[quote]In similar fashion to the previous idea jeffereytitan proposed of an arcane language you could implement a very basic programming like structure that the player unravels to make full use of the robotic possibilities. I must admit my mind is a bit aghast at thinking about the technical aspects in terms of design but I am probably overthinking it without study.[/quote]
To be perfectly honest, I gave it a great deal of thought and simply couldn't come up with a mechanism to make it fun for non-programmers.

To programmers, the draw is obvious. In that case, a special API backed by a scripting language of some kind - say, Lua or Python or Ruby - rammed into a sandbox would suffice. You can get a lot of mileage out of a simple MVC framework, command queue, and state machine.

For everyone else, however, I was at a loss for what they might find interesting. The problem, it seemed to me, was that compared to a system such as the "arcane language" suggested above, robots aren't malleable or changeable in any kind of theoretical way. They're physical entities whose structure doesn't change on its own accord. A robot with treads and a sonar gismo will never start spewing flames or be able to swim, unless the player manually switched out the parts to make that happen. Furthermore, these robots aren't supposed to be capable of higher-order intelligence; they're just function monkeys. Thus, the "language" is simply a subset of verbs that a robot may potentially do, essentially making it a poor man's LOGO.

Now, keep in mind it's still not a [i]bad[/i] idea. With some work and perseverance you can probably do some interesting things. However, the core issue in my mind was this: what part of this language's functionality cannot be represented by a UI? And the answer, frankly, is none. Not only that, but a well-constructed UI would likely be much easier to use and much faster to prototype various behaviors with; after all, a [i]move()[/i] command - and thus the player - needs to be concerned with distance markers and measurements, but with a UI the player can just click where they want the robot to go instead.

Lastly, you might ask, "[i]Kyan, the inspiration for the UI concept obviously came from [/i]Bethesda[i]'s AI dev kits[/i]" - and you would be right, hah - "[i]so why couldn't you do what they did and sort of combine the two? Like, make a robot's reactions scripted but provide a UI to accelerate mundane activities? Obviously, you'd also refrain from plaguing the world with yet another terrible scripting language and read a book about Q&A instead.[/i]"

The honest answer is that while my project seeks to make, and keep, crafting relevant it isn't really the focus. Designing a UI to be compatible for scripting by complete beginners and experts alike - things such as help pages and "useful" tooltips and intellisense - simply wouldn't be worth the effort. If I was designing for an MMO or some kind of crafting-specific game, however, I'd give the idea some serious consideration. I think, in that case, the ability to "share" various robot scripts would be mandatory and perhaps be immediately available upon part examination.

Anyway, this thread has some interesting ideas. I wasn't aware people were so passionate about crafting in general.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Kyan' timestamp='1334194398' post='4930449']
To be perfectly honest, I gave it a great deal of thought and simply couldn't come up with a mechanism to make it fun for non-programmers.
[/quote]

Yes, I can see that being a problem. I think non-programmers would find it easier to think in terms of qualities than precise instructions. I recall someone wrote a game where you could swap bits of brains to get new behaviours. Perhaps in a game like yours you could say "I want the ferocity of a lion plus the loyalty of a dog" or something like that. Break behaviours along some "common sense" lines and allow mix and match? Also I wouldn't say it's impossible to change the robots after creation. For example, you could order a robot with a claw/gripper to remove it's gun and replace it with a flamethrower from a beaten enemy robot in the field. Probably not what you're aiming at, but just a suggestion. :)
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='jefferytitan' timestamp='1334195104' post='4930453']
[quote name='Kyan' timestamp='1334194398' post='4930449']
To be perfectly honest, I gave it a great deal of thought and simply couldn't come up with a mechanism to make it fun for non-programmers.
[/quote]

Yes, I can see that being a problem. I think non-programmers would find it easier to think in terms of qualities than precise instructions. I recall someone wrote a game where you could swap bits of brains to get new behaviours. Perhaps in a game like yours you could say "I want the ferocity of a lion plus the loyalty of a dog" or something like that. Break behaviours along some "common sense" lines and allow mix and match? Also I wouldn't say it's impossible to change the robots after creation. For example, you could order a robot with a claw/gripper to remove it's gun and replace it with a flamethrower from a beaten enemy robot in the field. Probably not what you're aiming at, but just a suggestion. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[/quote]

Actually I think you might be overthinking it - the trick would be too establish a basic language set that each word represents a larger subset of algorithms -- rather than have the algorithms themselves necessarily be heavily designed. Draw it back a level and treat it more like an interface issue -- the real trick is bringing enough complexity to make that level a challenge. For example command: [i][b]fetch objectname [/b][/i]would be the level of interface interaction (this is dumbed down for purposes of clarity) for the player -- and the underlying algorithms for [i][b]fetch[/b][/i] and [i][b]objectname[/b][/i] would not be dealt with by the player. Things like movement - path-tracking would feed out of the existing framework of the larger MMO structure.

The addition or subtraction of parts would simply make those parts of the interface relevant to the part accessible or inaccessible. A further aspect of this is a consideration of remote control capabilites. The UI interface as an altering system based on parts combined etc would definitely be more fun than a text language -- nice!
-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='ImmoralAtheist' timestamp='1334175275' post='4930356']
Actually, I believe the calculations behind this are quite expensive, and something which you probably can't do serverside. The building process may have to be done locally, and once completed the server can test the construction. Locally the construction would be constantly tested so that you yourself can see the attributes realtime. The player would click finish, and a still image of the construction would be taken, which will be used in testing. There are problems with this, as someone could alter the game, so that they sent copies, or slightly altered copies of a very good design.
[/quote]

Going to assume you mean extensive and not expensive but correct me if I am wrong. Localised creation with server implementation (this could also be used as functional deathpoint for some creations i.e. a hidden flaw breaks the axe does sound workable, though with regard tech specifics someone else would have to confirm/deny.

Plagiarism - yes always an issue -- however if the process of manaufacture is unique to the maker i.e. they might mimic the shape but unravelling the formula and steps might be tricksome then someone else who manages to unravel the solution is not necessarily a plagiariser but also a crafter who has learnt that technique. I have no doubt there will be debates on this aspect for years. Unique model copying = plagiarism Vs mastering the technique =/= plagiarism is probably where it will end up.
-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really do wish I could rate you up 2 points for this particular idea.

Am brainstorming here despite having thought about this for the last two hours or so. But first of all - Awesome idea! I have seen a lot of videos on youtube made from video games - some concerning gameplay, some concerning raid instruction, some presenting dramatic or mucial pieces and there is definitely an audience that exists out there.

I think the idea should not necessarily be limited to using captured video sequences mind you I also believe the introfuction of original musics could also be done here.

One way in which a bard might operate is the ability to cast a number of "spyballs" which can capture video from different perspectives and then an interface setting by which those video elements could be edited into one contiguous whole for a story. Creating a crafting interface that held validity in the lore of an MMO would be interesting but if steampunk can introduce modern technology developed out of clockworks then it is feasible. Moreover it would provide a completely different MMO experience in my view.

I really do have to think about it more but this is an original viewpoint of a bard profession that stands out imo.
-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exploring the Lionhead studio'ss Fable games world of "funny" crowd pleasing and crowd appealing actions and animations the profession of a Jester/Dancer could be interesting as well. A library of funny physical comedy or naughty burlesque combined with an "open mic" voice chat areas for Jester profession players to unlock and actually tell jokes or sing for groups of players to respond to (probably limit that to animated emotes) could be fun. The ambiguous exploration of what's funny/entertaining can be explored and shared between players. Missions to cheer up kings or distract lords with well timed dance, appealing humor and music could make a player feel like a pivotal part in a mission where they never need to pick up a weapon if they don't want to.

Exploring a unique GUI here could interesting, maybe have 3D GUI over targeted players or parts of the crowd and timing actions and music to players and parts of the crowd to delight and grow your audience. A player to NPC ratio could exist as well, for each player the entertainer brings in three or four NPCs could approach as well, quickly building huge crowds. I would imagine the code on this one would be substantial as well and the animation would be daunting. The challenge to games like WOW is to keep players interacting with one another in a positive setting, this would be a creative profession with lots of player feedback, not for the meek but for the truly skilled and social (not something often asked of players ;).
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0