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How much work to make a game client like bloodline champions?

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I'm writing a game design that's around 5k words so far.. (Mostly on the client)
I'm thinking of hiring a quality programmer later.. I think the client that they use to find lobbies, buy items, chat, etc etc before enter a match will be about 60%-70% of the work on the game.
And I used bloodline champions client as inspiration a lot so.. If anyone could give me an idea how much it would cost to hire a programmer to make a similar client that BLC uses (NOT the actual playing with running around with character shooting etc) and how much time it could take on average that would be great so I know if I can even fund something like this.

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It will be expensive, think something like 3 to 4 months and a nice chunk of money.

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It will be expensive, think something like 3 to 4 months and a nice chunk of money.


So what's a nice chunk of money? 5k?

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how much it would cost to hire a programmer to make a similar client that BLC uses[/quote]

About $200,000.

quality programmer[/quote]

Quality programmer has a salary in range of $60-90k per year, but only in an established company that has track record of actually paying such sums as well as established development process. If hiring outside of that, cost may vary, it will need to compensate for risk.

But, programmers alone will have hard time steering the project, so you need someone to lead the project, or hire someone senior enough to understand the deeper issues.

and how much time it could take on average that would be great so I know if I can even fund something like this.[/quote]

About 3 man years for experienced team, 12 if you they have no previous experience.

This accounts only for programming for release ready code. it doesn't include cost of software, management, promotion, etc...

It also doesn't include art or other aspects, such as server administration, web presence or account for exponential complexity of coordinating these aspects. A good manager that can handle all of that may quickly come at 6 figures alone.

(NOT the actual playing with running around with character shooting etc)[/quote]

That would be content and to have any hope of success, it needs to be developed in parallel with engine, so that they both play of each other's strengths and limitations.

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Please include your sources when you reply so I don't got people making contradicting answers.
I just don't believe it can take 12 years to make a more than normal advanced "lobby" client.
Then there would be zero indy games out there.
MMORPG's get created in less than 12 years even if they create their own engine.

And what I mean by quality programmer is really just someone who knows what he's doing and got some experience.

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I just don't believe it can take 12 years to make a more than normal advanced "lobby" client.



About 3 man years for experienced team, 12 [man years] if you they have no previous experience.

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I just don't believe it can take 12 years to make a more than normal advanced "lobby" client.


3-4 years CS university, 2 years experience, 1 year on your project, given 2-3 people that's 12 man years.

If they come with experience, you pay for your project only, so 1 year per person.

Then there would be zero indy games out there.[/quote]

These indy people spend several years developing before they invest 1-2 years into their project.

MMORPG's get created in less than 12 years even if they create their own engine.[/quote]

MMOs take thousands of man years.

Social games on Facebook have ~500 developers/art/content people total who work full time. That's 500 man years each year.

So how long is a man year?[/quote]

One person working full time one year is one man-year.

8 people working 1 hour a day is 1 man year.

A project that takes 200 man years will take 200 years to complete by one person. It will take 1 year to complete by 200 people. it's not a perfect metric, since 2 million people will not complete in a day, but it's usual estimate.

it also allows cost estimation, just multiply by hourly pay.

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So then my reply was valid, You're saying it will take 3-12 years for 1 programmer to make a more than normal advanced "lobby" client.
I still want to know your sources for predicting so many years.

I also wouldn't hire some leader.. for the deeper thoughts of the project.
I expect the programmer to be able to lead himself.

It just feels like you're giving my "by the book" "official" answers. That's not what I want. Those kind of info are for millionaire studios.. Not for indys.

edit: also just because you have more programmers don't mean it will be faster.

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That's not what I want. Those kind of info are for millionaire studios.. Not for indys.[/quote]

You have the numbers - which do not add up for you.

Instead, you have $5000. Now it's up to you to figure out how to get $200,000 worth of work out of $5000.

That's what indie means.

You need a way to convince a person in a regular job with benefits and seniority, pulling $100k a year to abandon that and go work for you.
You need a way to identity and persuade a good student to work for you, instead of joining Google Summer of Code and get paid $3000 + a very good job reference.
You need a way to get a post-grad to drop their internship at BigName Co. with good networking to go work for you.
You need a way to filter out 15 offers on eLance between duds and an odd chance of someone who might be roughly what you want.
Or, a way to learn yourself how to do it and not rely on others.

You have an estimate of monetary worth of such work. Total would be $1 million or so - for an indie, several times that for a commercial entity.

Think about it, why would these companies pay so much money if they could get the same results for 5k? It would increase their profits tenfold. Why would they hire people if they could just be sole owner and take 100% of revenue as paycheck?

similar client that BLC uses (NOT the actual playing with running around with character shooting etc)[/quote]

If you don't mean the BLC client, then you'll first need to specify the requirements better first. BLC is a 3D game. If you mean something else, then estimates might be different.

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Still no sources?
Even in pre-school my teacher taught me that you can't just give the answers.. You gotta show how you calculated them.
So what makes you think it's going to take at absolute minimum 3 years for an experienced programmer to make an advanced lobby client?

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I prefer the idea of becoming that programmer myself.


Word, I would also prefer that and I've tried but even learning just c++ gets out of hand when you reach the advanced stuff with multithreading and other words I can't remember anymore. And that's without even touching on WinAPI code, opengl, game engine of choice.... and then probably the worst part... networking.. and even when you know all this you still don't even know where to begin mixing multithreading with networking for multiplayer and all that nightmare stuff.

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So what makes you think it's going to take at absolute minimum 3 years for an experienced programmer to make an advanced lobby client?


Define "advanced lobby client".

You gave BLC as a reference. That's a 3D game. If that's not what you meant, you need to specify it better.

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[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334338904' post='4931000']
So what makes you think it's going to take at absolute minimum 3 years for an experienced programmer to make an advanced lobby client?


Define "advanced lobby client".

You gave BLC as a reference. That's a 3D game. If that's not what you meant, you need to specify it better.
[/quote]

Hmm.. Not sure how to explain it better than in OP.. But...
I mean EVERYTHING from logging in... buying characters choosing what game mode and entering lobby chatting with players in lobby etc... all that... BEFORE entering a match through the lobby.. so it's really got nothing to do with 3D... just the game client before entering a match where you start running around etc.

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buying characters choosing what game mode[/quote]

That means there is a 3D game somewhere.

You cannot have "choosing characters" and "game mode" without having the game and gameplay itself.

You're asking for a movie trailer. Just the trailer, with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, directed by Michael Bay and set on the Moon - but without actually hiring any of these people, having a script or having a single second of footage. But it needs to be exactly like Transformers. But just the trailer - everything but the movie.


How complex is a lobby? it's about 20 lines of code. So about one hour of work, deployment and all. Of course, it will do absolutely nothing useful, nor will it have any appeal to anyone, since there won't be a game or game mode or characters - since the game doesn't exist. There also won't be any graphics, since programmers can't do them and artists don't have a concept to go from - there is no game.

Lobby is not something by itself. Lobby is a mechanism of a game.

It's possible to make a concept, a demo if you will, but there is nothing of use - you first need a game, then you can make a lobby.

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[quote name='Ronnie Mado Solbakken' timestamp='1334338807' post='4930999']
I prefer the idea of becoming that programmer myself.


Word, I would also prefer that and I've tried but even learning just c++ gets out of hand when you reach the advanced stuff with multithreading and other words I can't remember anymore. And that's without even touching on WinAPI code, opengl, game engine of choice.... and then probably the worst part... networking.. and even when you know all this you still don't even know where to begin mixing multithreading with networking for multiplayer and all that nightmare stuff.
[/quote]

Experience is the best teacher. You won't learn much by just reading the theory, you need to practice it, create problems for yourself and get the problems fixed. Then you don't have to remember as much, because your subconscious body memory remembers the stuff for you.

There's a reason why I remember how I wet my pants at the age of 4 and walking home with my legs 3 feet apart, even though it's information that I'd rather block out. biggrin.png

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buying characters choosing what game mode


That means there is a 3D game somewhere.

You cannot have "choosing characters" and "game mode" without having the game and gameplay itself.

You're asking for a movie trailer. Just the trailer, with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, directed by Michael Bay and set on the Moon - but without actually hiring any of these people, having a script or having a single second of footage. But it needs to be exactly like Transformers. But just the trailer - everything but the movie.


How complex is a lobby? it's about 20 lines of code. So about one hour of work, deployment and all. Of course, it will do absolutely nothing useful, nor will it have any appeal to anyone, since there won't be a game or game mode or characters - since the game doesn't exist. There also won't be any graphics, since programmers can't do them and artists don't have a concept to go from - there is no game.

Lobby is not something by itself. Lobby is a mechanism of a game.

It's possible to make a concept, a demo if you will, but there is nothing of use - you first need a game, then you can make a lobby.
[/quote]

There doesn't have to be any 3d characters... and even if there was it's just a picture. Not code.
You've got absolutely no idea what I'm even talking about. At least go and look up some info about BLC if you gonna start posting in this thread.

So you're saying I can create BLC client in 20 lines of code... bullshit.
and you cant compare to movie trailers because its completely different.

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[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334339141' post='4931001']
[quote name='Ronnie Mado Solbakken' timestamp='1334338807' post='4930999']
I prefer the idea of becoming that programmer myself.


Word, I would also prefer that and I've tried but even learning just c++ gets out of hand when you reach the advanced stuff with multithreading and other words I can't remember anymore. And that's without even touching on WinAPI code, opengl, game engine of choice.... and then probably the worst part... networking.. and even when you know all this you still don't even know where to begin mixing multithreading with networking for multiplayer and all that nightmare stuff.
[/quote]

Experience is the best teacher. You won't learn much by just reading the theory, you need to practice it, create problems for yourself and get the problems fixed. Then you don't have to remember as much, because your subconscious body memory remembers the stuff for you.

There's a reason why I remember how I wet my pants at the age of 4 and walking home with my legs 3 feet apart, even though it's information that I'd rather block out. biggrin.png
[/quote]

So you're saying it's easy? Or whats your point? I saw you make a reply on another thread saying you're still a noob at programming.
I never said I tried learning without exercises.

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It will be expensive, think something like 3 to 4 months and a nice chunk of money.


Just for the record..
Relfos is the only one that has really contributed so far with something that's reasonable and makes sense so far.
But I really hoped for a bit more info than that.

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You've got absolutely no idea what I'm even talking about.[/quote]

So it would appear. Which is why I repeatedly asked for clarification.

There doesn't have to be any 3d characters... and even if there was it's just a picture. Not code.[/quote]

Yes. Which is why it's easy and only a few lines of code. Of course, i don't know who will provide the pictures, the programmer won't.

So you're saying I can create BLC client in 20 lines of code... bullshit.[/quote]

No. You asked for a simple lobby. The BLC client is $200,000.

At least go and look up some info about BLC if you gonna start posting in this thread.[/quote]

I did.

Relfos is the only one that has really contributed so far with something that's reasonable and makes sense so far.[/quote]

If you take that estimate just for the "lobby client", you got ripped off. A lobby client is simple. If you want a full BLC game, then the estimate is reasonable.

Unfortunately, you still haven't been able to articulate what you actually want.

If you're looking to spend money on this, you will get ripped off for no result. Simple as that, there's an industry based around that.

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You've got absolutely no idea what I'm even talking about.


So it would appear. Which is why I repeatedly asked for clarification.

There doesn't have to be any 3d characters... and even if there was it's just a picture. Not code.[/quote]

Yes. Which is why it's easy and only a few lines of code. Of course, i don't know who will provide the pictures, the programmer won't.

So you're saying I can create BLC client in 20 lines of code... bullshit.[/quote]

No. You asked for a simple lobby. The BLC client is $200,000.

At least go and look up some info about BLC if you gonna start posting in this thread.[/quote]

I did.
[/quote]

Sigh..
I'm sorry if I sound frustrated but I just can't explain it any better.
At least you tried to help.. Hopefully someone who do understand will try as well.

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If you can't articulate your own requirements, why are you surprised that nobody gives you the exact answer you wanted to hear?


Or maybe some people have hard time understanding?
You seriously can't explain it any simpler than I've done.

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Or maybe some people have hard time understanding?
You seriously can't explain it any simpler than I've done.


For reference, the lobby.

Friends, chat window are trivial, they are IRC, use some existing server and library.

Summary/statistics/profile:
- Since there is no game, these windows are empty. There is no data to fill in and without a game, nobody knows how to provide it. So there is no work to be done

Beginner's section, how to play:
- There is no game, so it's an empty window again. Not much more can be said.

Seasons and career:
- Well, there is no game, so there are none of that. Empty window again

Join game/etc:
- Wouldn't you know it, there are no games to join, there is no game at all

Game settings:
- I guess we could provide resolution and audio settings for the lobby, if needed at all


What you want is a chat server, there simply isn't anything else. Download mirc, connect to some channel and you have lobby without a game.

Anything else requires and actual game.

If you think the rest is easy - it's actually the 99.99% of entire work. Screens are simple, but they are a function of game, not vice versa. Lobby does not determine what the game will be like, game determines what lobby is, why and how.

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