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alvaro

Reputation++ for logging in? Really?

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dmail    116
[quote name='Michael Tanczos' timestamp='1336771714' post='4939420']
I think in general people are pretty good about contributing in a positive way to a community when they realize the greater good. Wikis \ open source thrive on that idea.
[/quote]

Ok this is the last time I intend to log in, I have no need for epenis points.
I just wanted to ask is the gamedev wiki an example of this? You know the one which tore another community apart?

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jbadams    25676
We believe it's a Good Thing™ to try to recognise and encourage valuable contributions to the community -- but if you're not interested in that the system comprises of a couple of small UI elements around forum posts and it's a simple matter to just ignore it as you did with the previous incarnations. Honestly, leaving the community because we're altering the reputation system (in a way that can't possibly have a negative impact on your usage mind you) just seems like a childish tantrum.

Some of the previous systems have had issues with not recognising some contributions whilst perhaps giving an over-abundance of recognition to others, but that's something we're working hard to try to balance out with this version, and I simply fail to understand why anyone would object to something that recognises the time our members spend making posts and submitting articles.


As for the wiki, I'm not really sure why you're bringing up something so unrelated from quite a long time ago, but... well, it's not at all related to the discussion at hand -- but to directly answer the first part of your question, yes, gpwiki is an excellent example of a system thriving based on positive recognition of that value of contributions. The attempted integration and subsequent low usage of the wiki was unfortunate, but given the original maintainers had (and exercised) the right to fork the content and continue independently I don't really think you can blame GDNet for "tearing another community apart".

Trying to take a cheap shot at GDNet by bringing up past problems -- especially those unrelated to the current topic -- certainly isn't going to help the community move forwards, but given you don't intend to log in any more I suppose you don't really care about that.


We would however [i]love[/i] feedback on the current system, and any suggestions for potential improvements.

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Alpha_ProgDes    6921
[quote name='Michael Tanczos' timestamp='1336771714' post='4939420']
[quote name='Cornstalks' timestamp='1336751373' post='4939325']
And why not a boost in the Participation category?
[/quote]

Good question. Reputation systems are always (usually) designed with a mindset to reward particular actions. We just made the decision that it was more important to share and produce game development related articles/journals/topics/etc than anything else. At the end of the day we want to encourage and make available a really good platform for people to share what they know.

So many of our members have really great insight into a multitude of development topics and that is driving our decision-making process with what to reward most. While it would be great to NOT do any rewards for participation, we also need to grease the wheels so to speak to keep the system moving along. If giving out a few points helps people start using the up/down voting to reward good content then it's absolutely worth it. Our thought process is that if we DO do that, then we better counter balance it by rewarding more significant contributions more.

I think in general people are pretty good about contributing in a positive way to a community when they realize the greater good. Wikis \ open source thrive on that idea.
[/quote]

So, IMO, +1 for logging in is the same as an +1 for posting in the Lounge. Let me be clear, I don't care nor do I want to get upvotes or not for the Lounge.

Now, as far as participation points, why not give people an extra point for joining and taking part in workshops? Game Dev Competitions, IOTD, demos, or completed games?

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alvaro    21246
It looks like people here think of the reputation system as a mechanism to reward people for desired behavior, and the complications that are being proposed (over the +1/-1 system that we had until very recently) are geared towards promoting specific behaviors. This is similar to how the US tax code developed, which is why it is a mess. No, I am not expecting the reputation system to ever get as complicated as the US tax code.

I generally prefer simple systems that are easy to understand, and let people do what they want. In my opinion the only relevance of the reputation score is that when somebody gets an answer they can use a high reputation as a prior that there is probably some value to the answer (because a lot of people have found the answers of this user valuable before). A more comprehensive reputation system like the one that we seem to be transitioning towards makes the score harder to interpret, and therefore less useful. Is the score high because the user's answers are helpful or because he's been around for a long time? Or perhaps because he contributed some articles, or did some useful work for the community that got rewarded, although their answers are generally not helpful?


Anyway, I'll continue contributing to the community the best way I know (trying to share what I know, especially to newbies) regardless of what gets me brownie points.

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Stormynature    5198
[quote name='alvaro' timestamp='1336908784' post='4939751']
Anyway, I'll continue contributing to the community the best way I know (trying to share what I know, especially to newbies) regardless of what gets me brownie points.
[/quote]

+ 1 (Virtual [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img])

At the end of the day that's what its all about.

Edit: Well that and the community of peers and the learning of new things and whatever else that works to make this site a great place.

Edit 2: Trivia

[quote name='alvaro' timestamp='1336908784' post='4939751']
It looks like people here think of the reputation system as a mechanism to reward people for desired behavior, and the complications that are being proposed (over the +1/-1 system that we had until very recently) are geared towards promoting specific behaviors. This is similar to how the US tax code developed, which is why it is a mess.
[/quote]

Taxes do promote behavioural changes

[font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4][quote][/size][/font]
[font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4]In the seventeenth century Amsterdam was Europe's wealthiest trading city. Its golden era saw the development of town planning in the capital. Houses were built along the rings of city canals, the wealthiest merchants living in the city centre. Houses were narrow and high as there was a tax on the width of the buildings.[/size][/font]
[font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4][/quote][/size][/font] Edited by Stormynature

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alvaro    21246
Taxes do promote behavioral changes, but the consequences are often hard to predict.
[quote]The Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 repealed the Section 121 exclusion and section 1034 rollover rules, and replaced them with a $500,000 married/$250,000 single exclusion of capital gains on the sale of a home, available once every two years. This made housing the only investment which escaped capital gains. These tax laws encouraged people to buy expensive, fully mortgaged homes, as well as invest in second homes and investment properties, as opposed to investing in stocks, bonds, or other assets.[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_United_States_housing_bubble#Housing_tax_policy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_United_States_housing_bubble#Housing_tax_policy[/url]

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Alpha_ProgDes    6921
I do have a question Michael. In Stack Overflow, you can upvote a question, if you feel it's a good question. Will we be able to do the same thing here? If yes, will the GD.Net search be tweaked to search for posts based on vote count? We had the option to rate a thread, but that looks like it is gone now. Though is a bit different than the SO way of rating a post/thread. Edited by Alpha_ProgDes

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337127149' post='4940549']
I do have a question Michael. In Stack Overflow, you can upvote a question, if you feel it's a good question. Will we be able to do the same thing here? If yes, will the GD.Net search be tweaked to search for posts based on vote count? We had the option to rate a thread, but that looks like it is gone now. Though is a bit different than the SO way of rating a post/thread.
[/quote]

We do have a Q&A format that is complete but we're giving it a little time to roll out so we can explain everything new. We have a few more ways to earn points, then the revamped article system and method for publishing, and then the Q&A.

What we haven't decided yet is how to best expose particular threads. TBH, most people find forum threads through google so our Q&A approach is going to be geared towards making posts have a lasting value. The idea of Stackoverflow as a wiki is one that we like, which also changes the idea that we all individually own our own posts.

In the past we've talked about the idea of mining our forums for gem material but never could come up with a meaningful way to do it. If we allow posts to be improved and answers to be selected, at least we can create a pretty good snapshot view of both the question and final answer without having to read through all the discussion to derive the final working solution. Our style will be closer to the MSDN-style than Stackoverflow however, since we still want to promote discussion.. where stackoverflow could care less about discussion.

Here's what that Q&A looks like btw.. note that the gray checkmark which is used to select a post as answer will only display for people who have earned a sufficient number of scholar points (points awarded for providing good and helpful posts)

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:8570] Edited by Michael Tanczos

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Alpha_ProgDes    6921
I take it that a person could select more than one post as an answer?

Also,

[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1336908354' post='4939750']Now, as far as points that can be earned, can users get an [b]extra point for joining and taking part in workshops? Game Dev Competitions, IOTD, demos, or completed games?[/b]
[/quote]
Will the bolded be considered....? Edited by Alpha_ProgDes

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337135481' post='4940562']
I take it that a person could select more than one post as an answer?
[/quote]

For now the person asking the question cannot select an answer. Outside neutral observers with the mark as answer privilege can select an answer as an answer. This was a pretty big discussion among the moderators and there are pros and cons on either side. That is something though that we'll have to take a look at to make sure questions are at least having marked answers. It will take a sufficiently large enough pool of high-rated members to be able to select correct answers.

As far as what can earn points, EVERYTHING is on the table. It's just a matter of working it into the system. From your list IOTD is going to be a definite. Workshop completion, competitions, demos, and completed games are harder to track so I don't have an answer how we'd do that. However, down the road when we have article competitions you will get bonus points (as well as prizes) for winning for the month.

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szecs    2990
Maybe I missed it, but is there a way to view who rated me up in general, or at a specific post? It would be good to know, not because I can return the "favour" but it is more rewarding for me to get rated up by a user I respect than simply getting a point boost. I'm a hobbyist, so I guess I still need that feedback about my ideas/knowledge/opinions without directly asking for it.

And how is that "rating from a higher rep user means more points" work? I got a +1 for a post, that was presented as a +3 in my rep panel, but my points increased by 4... Edited by szecs

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Alpha_ProgDes    6921
[quote name='Michael Tanczos' timestamp='1337136200' post='4940564']
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337135481' post='4940562']
I take it that a person could select more than one post as an answer?
[/quote]

For now the person asking the question cannot select an answer. Outside neutral observers with the mark as answer privilege can select an answer as an answer. This was a pretty big discussion among the moderators and there are pros and cons on either side. That is something though that we'll have to take a look at to make sure questions are at least having marked answers. It will take a sufficiently large enough pool of high-rated members to be able to select correct answers.

As far as what can earn points, EVERYTHING is on the table. It's just a matter of working it into the system. From your list IOTD is going to be a definite. Workshop completion, competitions, demos, and completed games are harder to track so I don't have an answer how we'd do that. However, down the road when we have article competitions you will get bonus points (as well as prizes) for winning for the month.
[/quote]

Not to be anal, but will these privileged people be able to select two or more posts as an answer to a question. Or will it be restricted to one question, one answer? Outside of that, I like everything that you said and am hoping to see it!

Oh. Do we have a demos section on this site? Are you planning to have one? I know the Marketplace is not for games but for assets and resources. But having people being able to make demos of their games and post them would still be beneficial to the site. Don't you think?

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1337155205' post='4940617']
And how is that "rating from a higher rep user means more points" work? I got a +1 for a post, that was presented as a +3 in my rep panel, but my points increased by 4...
[/quote]

It should say +4 in your panel. I will have to update some code to reflect the correct value. This was due to a change I made last night (which introduced this bug).

On an individual post the counts you see is the number of upvotes, not how many points those upvotes gave you. Edited by Michael Tanczos

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337170431' post='4940652']
Not to be anal, but will these privileged people be able to select two or more posts as an answer to a question. Or will it be restricted to one question, one answer? Outside of that, I like everything that you said and am hoping to see it!

Oh. Do we have a demos section on this site? Are you planning to have one? I know the Marketplace is not for games but for assets and resources. But having people being able to make demos of their games and post them would still be beneficial to the site. Don't you think?
[/quote]

Users with privs can select multiple posts as an answer. Marked answers will not display as answers until 24 hours of discussion have elapsed from the original posting time.. so as not to dissuade other people from continuing to provide solid advice.

We used to have a game showcase but because we didn't give it enough love we opted to temporarily take it down. Our plan is to bring it back down the road after we've taken care of some of this years major objectives. Edited by Michael Tanczos

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Cornstalks    7030
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337276027' post='4940977']
I noticed something "odd". I upvoted ApochPiQ's post in the "Am I overengineering..." thread. Then, immediately, my rep points went up by +1. Is that by design?
[/quote]
[url="http://www.gamedev.net/user/33427-alpha_progdes/"]Looks like it[/url]

[edit]

Never mind... that's the one thing I hate about AJAX stuff... you can't link to it. Click the bottom "Reputation" button. Edited by Cornstalks

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337276027' post='4940977']
I noticed something "odd". I upvoted ApochPiQ's post in the "Am I overengineering..." thread. Then, immediately, my rep points went up by +1. Is that by design?
[/quote]

Yep, you now get points when you upvote someone.. as does the person you are upvoting. This is capped per day. If you downvote someone you lose a point. This is to allow downvoting, but only at the cost of one rep point.

We will be studying this particular rep area to look for abuse patterns. We may need to completely reverse reputation spammers actions at times.

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cgpIce    470
I myself like the idea of earning and losing with an up or down vote, my question is if I get lets say the cap is 5 if I get +1 for voting up then the cap would be 4 (well not really but id need four to reach it) then if i got -1 for voting down, would I need to vote up 5 more times to reach the cap or lets say just 4 as if my down vote was not made.

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='cgpIce' timestamp='1337456526' post='4941499']
I myself like the idea of earning and losing with an up or down vote, my question is if I get lets say the cap is 5 if I get +1 for voting up then the cap would be 4 (well not really but id need four to reach it) then if i got -1 for voting down, would I need to vote up 5 more times to reach the cap or lets say just 4 as if my down vote was not made.
[/quote]

The caps are based on the number of votes that you make, not the number of points you accumulate from the votes. So an upvote counts as vote #1 for the day, a downvote counts as vote #2 for the day, and you have up to 3 more votes that you can make to earn points that day.

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swiftcoder    18426
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1337465257' post='4941530']
Hold up! There's a cap on how many people you can upvote?[/quote]
My understanding is that cap is on how many people you can up/down vote [i]for credit[/i].

i.e. your first 5 up/down votes each day will boost/lower your own rating. All up/down votes thereafter will affect the other user's reputation as per usual, but will not increase/decrease your own reputation.

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Michael Tanczos    5681
[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1337468578' post='4941539']<br /> My understanding is that cap is on how many people you can up/down vote for credit.<br />[/quote]

Yep, this is correct. I don't think we have a daily vote limit set on the site at the moment, but depending on how things go that may change. So far people have increased voting on posts by almost 600%.. mostly because of the design change I'd suspect.

The next blog update is going to start talking about the points you can get for different things.

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Alpha_ProgDes    6921
Or for every person he downvotes he'll need to upvote another person to keep his points the same. But since this is trial run, I guess it's worth seeing how well it works.

This may sound like a weird request, but is there anyway to show "certain" points? For instance, I don't want my participation points shown. Personally, everytime I see my points go up, I'm like "oh I wonder who rated up one of my post". Then I get the sad realization that I got +1 for logging in. Plus it's nice for me and probably the person looking at my score to see and immediately know that my points (however high) are from my posts in the Technical threads, ie. I know what I'm talking about :)

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