[Weekly Discussion: Week 2] RPG Genre's flaws - "Grinding"

Started by
31 comments, last by ygworlds 11 years, 9 months ago
@Fulgrate: Players don't have as much endurance or reflex capabilities of BOTS unless they are born with above normal level of abilities. That's why nearly 80% of gamers cannot win against a strongly defined AI because they lack the skills to do so. Only the few will have the ability to fight equally to an AI that does not cheat.
Stupid Cheating AI -> Smart Non-Cheating AI... The scale is there, but there's a reason to use the stupid cheating AI. The stupid cheating AI is beatable, while a smart non-cheating AI is an extreme challenge for gamers. Since only the top quality of gamers could ever defeat the AI, that's the whole point why AIs are not further develop to be smarter. They don't have to be smarter because the gamers don't require the AI to be smarter. AIs only need to be strong enough to be a challenge to the players, and since a stupid non-cheating AI is good enough for the casual players, and a stupid cheating AI is good enough for the amatures. Hard core players are the ones that need to have a smart AI, but there will be none. That's the reason why hard core becomes players vs players game because there's no AI strong enough to eliminate the need for PVP.

@sunandshadow: chores are not mandatory like the three elements of life. Society tries to create other mandatory elements like chores, bathing, etc. However, grind is what makes people happy.


I agree that putting 'treasure rooms' dissociates the reward from the actual combat. The drawback to this is that it makes combat less rewarding, more of an obstacle, and players may be tempted to run away more, leading to under-leveled characters. That means before long, players will be having a hard time fighting monsters, and their easiest solution will be to grind up a few levels. Would there be a way to avoid this loophole?

Treasure makes up 80% of experience in Original Dungeons and Dragons. Only in later edition where the experience for combat are inflated in order to remove the experience from obtaining treasures. For all of loot, each gold piece in value is worth 1 experience point. Taking the treasure does not make the players underleveled since treasure equipments increase the character stats indirectly.

Playing any game is grinding for happiness because the default emotion is mild depression. Everyone will move towards the center and neutral point in emotion. This default emotional position is considered negative!

Grind defines the genre of the game. Without a grind is without a genre. Love the grind because grind is content!

Progress Quest has too much grind! smile.png
I use QueryPerformanceFrequency(), and the result averages to 8 nanoseconds or about 13 cpu cycles (1.66GHz CPU). Is that reasonable?
I though that the assembly equivalent to accessing unaligned data would be something similar to this order:

  • move
  • mask
  • shift
  • move
  • mask
  • shift
  • or

So it seems reasonable to say that it takes 14 cycles for unaligned data since we'll have to do the series of instructions once to access and once to assign?
Advertisement

Progress Quest has too much grind! Posted Image

Lol at that.

Strangely enough, I've had a look at Zeboyd's rpgs (Breath of Death VII, Chtulu saves the world) and the reduction of grinding actually turned me off in these. I felt like burning through a story without obstacles to overcome.
Pro-Grind?
Not Pro-Grind!
Remember that I've already said, grind is content, and it makes the genre of the game. Grind is a relative term to say that the player's skill level is beyond the game's capacity to challenge the player.

Grind is a necessity just like life has the three elements: eat, sleep, excrete!

Reduction of grinding turns me off. The moment I started using game shark codes, I've stop playing games for half a decade. It's when I found out that grinding is a necessity like the three issus of life, that when I realise that grind is require to enjoy the games.
I use QueryPerformanceFrequency(), and the result averages to 8 nanoseconds or about 13 cpu cycles (1.66GHz CPU). Is that reasonable?
I though that the assembly equivalent to accessing unaligned data would be something similar to this order:

  • move
  • mask
  • shift
  • move
  • mask
  • shift
  • or

So it seems reasonable to say that it takes 14 cycles for unaligned data since we'll have to do the series of instructions once to access and once to assign?
I guess one does feel more pride after overcoming an obstacle if a part of it was something he didn't entirely like.
I mean, people get achievements on live consoles all the time, and they want to get them, but its hard, and its long, and its part of the ride too.
I'm trying to imagine myself playing a game, hunting for an achievement that does not require grinding in any way shape or form and though it could be more fun, we're losing pride in the process it appears to me.

Not Pro-Grind!
Remember that I've already said, grind is content, and it makes the genre of the game. Grind is a relative term to say that the player's skill level is beyond the game's capacity to challenge the player.

Grind is a necessity just like life has the three elements: eat, sleep, excrete!

Reduction of grinding turns me off. The moment I started using game shark codes, I've stop playing games for half a decade. It's when I found out that grinding is a necessity like the three issus of life, that when I realise that grind is require to enjoy the games.


I thoroughly disagree that grind is content. In general I think of games in terms of mastering skills and mastering content. Even after you have mastered a skill it can be fun to master new content with it. But after you have mastered the CONTENT, what is the point of playing that content over and over again? Let's hop out of the genre for a moment. Consider Portal. It involves a lot of skills mastery, then applying the skill to new content. Would people enjoy the game as much if they had to complete each level 10 times in a row before moving to the next level? No. Then why would this be considered a plus in the RPG genre? The problem as I see it is that the game designers decide how long it should take to level up, then re-use content (e.g. grind) to "fix" the downside of extended development time to provide that many hours of content. Now I'm not saying that content should never be re-used. But when re-used it should be modified enough to provide fresh opportunity for the player to stretch themselves.

I also question your statement that grind means that the player's skill exceeds the game's ability to challenge them. Many players grind because they want an advantage to make challenging content later easier.
They say you have a good design when you can't remove anything from it anymore.
Chrono Trigger used that formula, ending with one of the shortest RPGs out there, pretty much grindless, and very fun overall.
The downside to this is that the game isn't hard by any stretch.
Grind introduces a measure of difficulty to the game which needs to be overcome, some form of challenge. This is done at the expense of fun.

I would like to take this opportunity to enlarge the question to this:
What alternatives to grinding could increase difficulty/challenge in a jRPG that couldn't be overcome by fighting more battles to become stronger?

I would like to take this opportunity to enlarge the question to this:
What alternatives to grinding could increase difficulty/challenge in a jRPG that couldn't be overcome by fighting more battles to become stronger?


Bringing back attrition could work. jRPG usually have simple combat systems that don't allow for thoughtful gameplay and get their challenge by randomness or throwing bigger numbers at you. Grinding overcomes bigger numbers so all that is left is randomness and that's hard to overcome. Attrition seems like the logical choice, but that can be hard to balance.
Developer for Novus Dawn : a [s]Flash[/s] Unity Isometric Tactical RPG - Forums - Facebook - DevLog

Attrition seems like the logical choice, but that can be hard to balance.


Attrition in games where the player is allowed to have 99 potions, 99 high potions and so on can quickly get boring. It's only a matter of filling your potion slots ahead of time and spend a tremendous amount of time in the menus patching up everyone. I think the time spent by players in the menus should be kept to a minimum if a game of that nature is meant to be fun. Since you brought it up, what kind of alternate solutions do you have in mind for attritions?

Attrition in games where the player is allowed to have 99 potions, 99 high potions and so on can quickly get boring. It's only a matter of filling your potion slots ahead of time and spend a tremendous amount of time in the menus patching up everyone. I think the time spent by players in the menus should be kept to a minimum if a game of that nature is meant to be fun. Since you brought it up, what kind of alternate solutions do you have in mind for attritions?


That's the reason why I said it was hard to balance. You can easily get situations where you need to conserve every last bit of resource for the boss fight or ones where you can do whatever because you have more than enough resources. The biggest hurdle is the variable number of encounters between rests. There needs to be a concept that can limit your ability to progress if you take poor choices, but allow you to progress almost infinitely if you play perfectly.

One way could be by having a volatile and a hard to regenerate durability stat. An example is Bloodline Champions. If your current HP drops below 20% of your current Max HP, your current Max HP drops to your current HP + 20%. In other words, if you have 100 HP and take 25 damage, your new max HP is 95. Healing spells are easy to come by, but will only heal you up to 95. To heal back to 100 requires a lot of effort. It has some drawbacks because it doesn't allow you to come back to full strength after suffering a beating, so the most damage you can deal to the player at once is the maximum the player can heal before losing max HP. If the player takes more damage, he will eventually die in 1 hit and be unable to progress.

Another method would be by taking away random encounters. If the number of encounters to progress is fixed, it becomes easier to balance. D&D 4e used that with their healing surges concept. The game was designed to allow you to fight around 4 encounters before doing a full rest. If you stick to that, it works decently in creating a sense of attrition. It's really inflexible though and that's probably why it got changed for the next edition.
Developer for Novus Dawn : a [s]Flash[/s] Unity Isometric Tactical RPG - Forums - Facebook - DevLog

One way could be by having a volatile and a hard to regenerate durability stat. An example is Bloodline Champions. If your current HP drops below 20% of your current Max HP, your current Max HP drops to your current HP + 20%. In other words, if you have 100 HP and take 25 damage, your new max HP is 95. Healing spells are easy to come by, but will only heal you up to 95. To heal back to 100 requires a lot of effort. It has some drawbacks because it doesn't allow you to come back to full strength after suffering a beating, so the most damage you can deal to the player at once is the maximum the player can heal before losing max HP. If the player takes more damage, he will eventually die in 1 hit and be unable to progress.


And I thought I was being original with that :(
That's what I had in mind: reduce max hp and mp temporarily while journeying based on the amount of damage taken, etc. It was to simulate the player being exhausted.


Another method would be by taking away random encounters. If the number of encounters to progress is fixed, it becomes easier to balance. D&D 4e used that with their healing surges concept. The game was designed to allow you to fight around 4 encounters before doing a full rest. If you stick to that, it works decently in creating a sense of attrition. It's really inflexible though and that's probably why it got changed for the next edition.


I'm a bit on the fence with what they did there too. Most video games with fixed encounters fall in either pitholes:
a) Enemies respawn when you leave the area (open for grinding)
b) You can always turn back home to rest. If enemies don't respawn that means you could fight each encounter at full strength provided you do the trek back and forth to the nearest village or resting place. That's another form of grinding: pointlessly moving between the city and the level just because it allows you to abuse the balance.

I think both are rather hard to avoid...

This topic is closed to new replies.

Advertisement