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Ben Bowen

A Concern Regarding Operating Systems and Technical Influences

35 posts in this topic

If Windows 8 is the next in line, behind Windows 7, then I don't want to develop games for Windows anymore. Each version brings a few important features, but they completely spoil it to an overall negative improvement, by absoluteness. Due to Windows 8's unbearable terror, even if Windows 7 stays dominant for quite a long time, I wouldn't be stupid to let that pass. I'm considering developing for Linux, but from my experience, it has quite unstable/unreliable drivers. The people building desktop environments for Linux have some mental problems alike Microsoft, too. Mostly, I'm concerned by the "UNIX environment" that's associated with Linux. I'm one of those people who believes that programming languages shouldn't have been carried on since the advent of NLS. I'm bothered by how many people consider long, homogenous strings of characters as the golden interface to the computer (one of those UNIX philosophies): Programming Schemes, Search Queries, User Interfaces (Even sneaked into "Graphical" User Interfaces) and the most idiotic of all: Media Encoding (i.e. XML).

I could rant a lot about very stupid GUI design decisions, but there's so many of them, and that's beside my point. To elaborate this redundancy: I'm just disappointed by everything in the software world! Where's the hacker ethic gone? Why is the industry engulfed by Java-abusing "IT guys" ? Why is UNIX the only alternative class of operating systems that anyone talks about? Why isn't UDI implemented abundantly? Why do people keep excusing their laziness for: "High capacity hard drives are getting much cheaper. Memory's hella cheap. People's processors are like super computers compared to the 90's. I don't need to worry about my approach anymore. I have a massive canvas to work with!"

Well no. You don't have a massive canvas to work with. Yes, people's computers in the 90's were much less powerful, but at least people tried to conserve their resources to some extent. Don't you realize how long people have been saying this? Yes, hardware has always been getting cheaper, but can you imagine how much more you could do if everyone utilized these resources graciously? (The answer is: No.)

My ultimate problem regards the ecosystem of a computer. Your shit affects my shit. That's why propriety software is retarded. If the big players make shit, then I have to deal with it, especially if its an operating system. Sometimes it doesn't matter how well your compiler can optimize. Two well-written assembly programs which achieve the same design goals can result with widely different performance, depending on which techniques were utilized to implement them. But the technical problems rendered to Windows are of a much worse case. This simple issue I speak of now seems far beyond their pathetic problems.

I hope you enjoyed this rant. It might need to be moved, but I tried to place it in the right forum. Edited by Reflexus
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Thread was probably better off put in the lounge. Larger audience for the rant. You might want to look into Steam who I believe are focussing on Linux accessability for games.


Edit: Link re steam/linux [url="http://www.develop-online.net/news/41427/Valve-brings-Steam-to-Linux"]http://www.develop-online.net/news/41427/Valve-brings-Steam-to-Linux[/url] Edited by Stormynature
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Hey Reflenux.
Nice to see you taking an interest in Linux/UNIX development.
I frankly don't know why people put up with the S*** from Microsoft - windows is a terrible operating system.

I'm currently working on a project to promote linux - building an open source operating system for game consoles and media centers.
Linux is great - having the freedom to dissect the whole system is something that has become essential for me to become a better programmer.
The only issue is X windows (X11) - it's currently the windowing system standard for linux - and it...well... sucks - it's slow and takes alot ofresources , however needed if you want to develop games.
the most annoying thing is, it's in the hands of Nvidia and AMD - there the ones who deside what api to use for there drivers - they won't change to there's a better system , yet you can't build the system until they change...

anyway...

yeah. Linux - it's awesome.
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I'll be blunt: you need to justify the existence of this thread. Tell us how you're helping fix the situation, don't just whine about the problem.

At the moment this veers perilously close to trolling and flamebait, and I'm very tempted to have it locked on those grounds alone.
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Wait... you complain about 'long strings of text' while at the same time decrying the 'dont optimise every last second' mentality?

I... have no words.
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@Stormynature
Thank's, I'll check it out. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

@naf456
I agree about the drivers and X11... and mostly everything else you've said. Do you have a git repository for this project? If you don't have anything official on the net, then I would be pleased just to know a little more about it. Please send me a PM. I want to hear more.

[quote]I'll be blunt: you need to justify the existence of this thread.[/quote]
Apparently, Stormynature & naf456 justified it quite well. I appreciate their responses.

[quote]Tell us how you're helping fix the situation, don't just whine about the problem.[/quote]
I'm summoning mysterious hackers to do it for me, with my very high magic level. Of course I wouldn't just whine, I want to handle this problem. I would shout it out if I knew a good answer. Justification #2. We can also talk about how phantom (and probably a lot others) think I'm full of baloney. Justification #3.

[quote]Wait... you complain about 'long strings of text' while at the same time decrying the 'dont optimise every last second' mentality?[/quote]
Wait... where's the contradiction? And.. decrying? What do you mean?


Thanks everyone (including the moderators) for taking me [i]somewhat[/i] seriously... or at least responding. If you're still not happy about this behavior of mine, you may close the topic. Stay smooth. Edited by Reflexus
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It sounds like you would benefit from moving to a more cross platform / abstracted approach in your programming.

I must admit I do (or did) share some of the concerns about having to put up with 'rubbish' for want of a better word in the operating system below. I'm not sure there is that much you can do about this though, short of contributing / writing your own OS.

OS concerns are more of an issue for certain types of development than others (for some you are forced to deal with the OS). For games however, in most cases there are a number of APIs you can use which will abstract this away for you. You can use things like OpenGL, SDL, OpenAL (or write directly to sound buffers), CeGUI. You can use your own abstracted file handling API, mouse / gamepad / keyboard input. The places where you actually need to interact with the OS directly are usually limited.

Once you change your coding style to using APIs or interfaces to such things, you can then see whether there are benefits to running on different OSes.

When it comes down to it, the differences add up to things like how efficiently the OS uses the hardware, how 'jittery' it is (does the OS start taking huge lumps of time away to do housekeeping). Providing you don't do crazy stuff like try dynamic allocation from the OS on the fly, you can keep its influence pretty minimal.

Also if you do some profiling you'll get a better idea of how much you are being limited by different factors, typically you can get the OS down to using a few percent of your CPU and use the rest on the game. On things like PCs, it's not worth worrying about that kind of percentage, gamers are used to needing a faster CPU anyway to compensate for this.

Perhaps you could come up with some examples of where you've been frustrated, and people could offer solutions.
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Darwin (not the OS) will do his job here. Those who evolve will survive, those who don't, won't , but will, in the meantime, rant on the forums about the fact that everything suck but they're good.
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Having written that, I kind of suspect this rant is to be taken as a user's perspective on the desktop environment, rather than 'how should a programmer deal with this environment'.

The problem is the general one of sub-standard programmers, or low standards for work.

You'll find sloppy work for a number of reasons such as:

1) developers who genuinely don't know what they are doing (or understand the implications of what they are doing)
2) developers who know what they are doing but don't care (very common in paid jobs)
3) programs that have to be produced to a time schedule / to a budget -> team / management constraints (programmers are forced to write rubbish)

Then you find this sloppiness multiplies. If e.g. microsoft make some horrific new library (due to reasons earlier) or that the marketing team have dreamt up, often developers further down the line can be forced to use it for one reason or another and you can get entire ecosystems of rubbish.

(Of course if there's one thing guaranteed it's if you ask a programmer what they think of someone else's work, in most cases they'll think it's rubbish, even sometimes just because the other programmer prefers working in another way. In fact if you ask most programmers what they think of their own work 10 years earlier they'll say it's rubbish. 'Whatever way I'm currently using, is the best and only way to work' is a mantra most of us live by lol.)

This is what you get when you have open / free for all systems like linux and windows. It's kind of the price of freedom.

The other alternative is to have more of a walled garden, and have some kind of vetting system for new programs, quality control. An example would be apple requiring to approve apps before they are available. Another example would be console development, the (usually) rigorous TCRs (technical certification requirements) required before a title can be passed.

Another alternative, which isn't currently used, but would be kind of nice to avoid some of the commercial bias, would be a peer review process, similar to that in the academic world. i.e. You finish your app, you send it off to be analysed (with details of workings) to a set of referees, who make recommendations whether to fail it, pass it, or pass it depending on some changes being made.

At the moment, the only vetting system for programs on open operating systems is the users, and they don't really have a clue. Or rather, even if some do have a clue, their opinion gets drowned out in the 'noise'. If someone's computer starts crashing or grinding to a halt because some dodgy developer decides to load their irrelevant sloppy code at startup then in 99% of cases they won't have a clue who caused it and who is to blame, they might even start blaming the wrong app. Edited by lawnjelly
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Well, I agree it's a shame that there isn't more choice in operating systems and there's plenty of criticisms one could make of software in general.

But I think Windows and Linux are both pretty good operating systems, even if they each have things that we might not quite like about them. But I prefer Windows overall - to respond to naf456, that's why I "put up with" Windows. The main advantage I see of Linux is that it is free (as in both beer and speech), and I think it's a good thing to have that option around.

(I used to hate DOS and Windows 9x in the 90s, preferring to use AmigaOS, but the NT line, especially since Windows 2000, has been pretty damn good, and I think Windows 7 has also improved on this.)

What is it about Windows 8 that would put you off Windows game development?
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[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1342705659' post='4960931']
What is it about Windows 8 that would put you off Windows game development?
[/quote]

I suspect the answer will be the metro interface... which everyone seems to be very hung up on despite the fact that, for the average user (which no one on this site is) it'll probably be an improvement for them.
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[quote name='Reflexus' timestamp='1342662550' post='4960760']
Apparently, Stormynature & naf456 justified it quite well. I appreciate their responses.
[/quote]

Did you read their responses? Naf's was pretty much as vague as yours, and Stormynature didn't really offer an opinions.

It's not like there's a shortage of things to dislike about windows. Coming up with a list shouldn't be that hard, and then we can have an actual discussion instead of a collective circle jerk of vagueness.
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[quote]I suspect the answer will be the metro interface... which everyone seems to be very hung up on despite the fact that, for the average user (which no one on this site is) it'll probably be an improvement for them.[/quote]

Not solely. You're thinking like Microsoft at that; as if I'm just a whiner and don't like it because its so different. Try to tell me who the "average users" are, and even if any of them remotely like Windows 8 by any aspect. What do you know about Windows 8 anyway? I know that the entire user-land rests on a pile of scum, created by embarrassingly incompetent programmers and a horrible overall execution. I also know that, indeed, the Metro interface is ludicrous. I don't want to elaborate. If you actually make any observations for yourself, you probably could agree.

[quote]Darwin (not the OS) will do his job here. Those who evolve will survive, those who don't, won't , but will, in the meantime, rant on the forums about the fact that everything suck but they're good.[/quote]

Actually, I'm concerned for that reason exactly. Windows 8, of course, will largely affect Microsoft's success and a variety of software reliant on Windows. I have yet to see any sign of anyone on the Internet complementing Microsoft's failure (well, you can certainly try, if you hate my rant that much), or even just "summarizing" their experiences with it to describe "new features" without making any critical complaints. These are hardly small "disappointments." These people passionately hate it. Its not a minor failure, like Vista. This will be hard to recover from.

[quote]Did you read their responses? Naf's was pretty much as vague as yours, and Stormynature didn't really offer an opinions.[/quote]
Did I read their responses? Look at your own response. Actually, I think yours is rather vague and pointless. This topic has a rather damn good basis for discussion, besides these remarks about me "trolling." In all honesty. I'm not just bashing it out, but reasonably, I'm rather pleased with this topic's purpose, including the feedback and insight from Storynature, naf456, lawnjelly, kunos and mdwh.

I am sorry I have not comprehensively responded to you all, and all your thoughts which I wish to respond to. I can't do that now, but I'm trying.
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[quote name='Reflexus' timestamp='1342712568' post='4960975']
Not solely. You're thinking like Microsoft at that; as if I'm just a whiner and don't like it because its so different. Try to tell me who the "average users" are, and even if any of them remotely like Windows 8 by any aspect. What do you know about Windows 8 anyway?
[/quote]

The 'average user' is not a programmer, they are not someone who has multiple monitors, they are not someone who has many many files open at once. They are the type of person who runs their web browser full screen or Word fullscreen they are basically more like my mum than me.

[quote]
I know that the entire user-land rests on a pile of scum, created by embarrassingly incompetent programmers and a horrible overall execution. I also know that, indeed, the Metro interface is ludicrous. I don't want to elaborate. If you actually make any observations for yourself, you probably could agree.
[/quote]

Really? You KNOW this? How do you KNOW this and more importantly if you know this why are you bothering to rant about it? I mean clearly if it is as broken as you KNOW then just leave and never look back.

Personally you come across as some kind of whiney kid who is so up themselves with their own view points that they can't consider someone else might well like something they don't.

Or a moron.

I can't decide which... maybe both.

Edit: OH.. I remember now.. you are the guy who started the 'Don't start yet another voxel project' thread... I KNEW I had a reason for thinking you were a self opinionated moron... glad to see my feelings were spot on then as they are now. Edited by phantom
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[quote name='Reflexus' timestamp='1342712568' post='4960975']
What do you know about Windows 8 anyway? I know that the entire user-land rests on a pile of scum, created by embarrassingly incompetent programmers and a horrible overall execution. I also know that, indeed, the Metro interface is ludicrous. I don't want to elaborate. If you actually make any observations for yourself, you probably could agree.
[/quote]

wow.. it is quite a miracle that Win8 feels so much faster than anything else out there when such a bunch of losers were working on it.. seriously, stop embarassing yourself.
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[quote name='Reflexus' timestamp='1342712568' post='4960975']
[quote]Did you read their responses? Naf's was pretty much as vague as yours, and Stormynature didn't really offer an opinions.[/quote]
Did I read their responses? Look at your own response. Actually, I think yours is rather vague and pointless.
[/quote]

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1342708030' post='4960947']
It's not like there's a shortage of things to dislike about windows. Coming up with a list shouldn't be that hard, and then we can have an actual discussion instead of a collective circle jerk of vagueness.
[/quote]

edit: If a list of multiple items is too much for you, we can start with a single specific thing you dislike and build from there as the discussion grows. Edited by way2lazy2care
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I really can't understand the rant about the Metro interface. Windows 8 is a dual system in that its Metro shell will be the default layout, but you can run [i]any software that runs on Windows 7[/i] (which is any software that runs on a 32/64-bit Windows system!) in regular desktop mode. [url="http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Windows-8-Metro-vs-Desktop-Conflicts-and-Disconnects/?page=2"]Link[/url].

[quote]
Then there's the desktop. The changes here are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but there's a lot of subtle enhancements and improvements to how information is presented and moved around the operating system.
[/quote]

The only disparity between the two is visual and the fact that desktop users get to use both interchangeably.

If you want to go cross-platform without dealing with OS problems, develop for the web - you'll be wrestling with browser compatibility instead of driver issues, but you'll be happy to know that you'll be treading the future curve of the industry.

It's jarring how uninformed and decadent this rant looks. The question isn't even about "going with the times", it's about attacking Microsoft's solution for the mobile market on the desktop platform on the grounds of [i]GUI decisions[/i]. You're the developer - at the end of the day what do you even care about the GUI of the OS your code runs on? Look at the market share and go for what feels right to you - if you want money, develop for MS, if you want to make make more money, also develop for Mac and if you want to satisfy a fringe contingent, develop for Linux. Funny as it is, you can actually do all three at the same time.
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[quote]You're the developer - at the end of the day what do you even care ...[/quote]

Oh, I see. And you must be the one in a suit and coat with a monocle on your eye. Nice insight. Edited by Reflexus
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[quote]If this isn't going to be civil, then it isn't going to happen at all.

Clear?[/quote]

Yes. Close it.
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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1342708030' post='4960947']
[quote name='Reflexus' timestamp='1342662550' post='4960760']
Apparently, Stormynature & naf456 justified it quite well. I appreciate their responses.
[/quote]

Did you read their responses? Naf's was pretty much as vague as yours, and Stormynature didn't really offer an opinions.

It's not like there's a shortage of things to dislike about windows. Coming up with a list shouldn't be that hard, and then we can have an actual discussion instead of a collective circle jerk of vagueness.
[/quote]

My main issues with Windows are:

1) Poor driver support for some older hardware. (Allthough this is primarily the vendors fault)
2) Annoyingly hard to load unsigned drivers (which makes problem 1 worse)
3) Poor support for multiple monitors. (Ok, i can expand my desktop to cover all monitors or mirror my displays, but why don't i get separate taskbars and taskswitchers, shortcuts to move applications between monitors, and other usability features ?) (There are some really good third party apps for this though but they cost almost as much as the OS itself and it should be a standard feature these days)
4) no solid package manager to speak of, (The add/remove software thingy in the control panel is so insanely slow that its not even funny and it can't be used to actually install software)
5) insanely buggy sleep on my desktop (works great on my laptop though)
6) No HUD.

Unfortunatly similar issues exist on all platforms.i had to switch from Ubuntu 12.04 to Linux Mint since Ubuntu insisted on using an older nvidia driver that was buggy as .... (why the heck would they use a broken display driver in a LTS release for several months after a fixed driver has been released ?)and it didn't make it easy to drop out of X to install a newer driver manually, it was quite a big letdown (i really liked the HUD in Unity though and wish Windows and Mint had something similar),

My problems with Linux Mint right now are:
1) Poor flash performance (annoying if you want to play the more demanding flash games).
2) Graphical glitches with some compiz features. (unfortunatly its the more useful ones such as window tabbing and grouping that are glitchy)
3) I can't get the ssh agent to remember the password for my keys when i open a new terminal, (it works in X but i have to re-enter the password to use my keys from a terminal)
4) No HUD.
5) Slightly buggy sleep/hibernate on my laptop. (havn't tried on the desktop but i'd expect it to fail spectacularly there since Windows struggles with that one)
6) Some of the programs i want to use aren't available and have no really good alternative.

I have no problems with OS X since i don't use Apple products(purely political) but i'm sure it has its share of problems aswell.

Its definitly a problem that Windows is so dominant since it does make the software and driver issues with other platforms harder to overcome (and it is a pain in the ass to find a good, reasonably priced laptop without Windows pre-installed).

as for Win8 i'm not going to judge it until i've used the finished version of it. Edited by SimonForsman
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[quote name='irreversible' timestamp='1342766266' post='4961196']
I really can't understand the rant about the Metro interface. Windows 8 is a dual system in that its Metro shell will be the default layout, but you can run [i]any software that runs on Windows 7[/i] (which is any software that runs on a 32/64-bit Windows system!) in regular desktop mode.[/quote]Well, that is only half true. In reality, you must go through Metro to get to the desktop at all, no choice (this includes when e.g. the screensaver locks you out), and the desktop has been [b]heftily [/b]stripped down (on purpose, of course). There is no such thing as a start menu any more, so you have to manually add your programs to the task bar, which is both tedious and non-practical if you have more than 6-8 programs installed. You also cannot do basic things such as log out or reboot from the desktop interface without going through Metro. A simple task as opening a shell is an ordeal now (if you haven't pinned the shell to the taskbar, again, manually).
Process Explorer won't work seamlessy any more as it would in all previous versions, at least it doesn't on my Win8 Consumer Preview install.
That said "the going through Metro" bit is a nightmare by itself because you have to do some totally unintuitive drag gesture for that.

Insofar, while the "this was done by a bunch of losers" argument is not entirely true, one can at least say "was done without desktop computers in mind" with full justification. Of course that's just what is intended, too.

But, regardless of how much one whines, [u]Windows 8 will come[/u]. People will buy it, people will use it. A few of them will whine too, but they will still buy it. And if you ask why, it's simply because there is no alternative.

As bad as Windows is (and I wholeheartedly agree that ever since Windows XP, which was truly good at its time, every new version only became slower, more bloated, and worse overall) it is still the best operating system available.

Linux, sad as it is, just doesn't cut it. Linux is great for running a webserver or a SQL server, it's awesome as firmware for my router and for my video recorder, but as a desktop operating system, it's totally unusable and non-competitive. That isn't even solely the fault of Linux but also the fault of third party manufacturers... but it really doesn't matter whose fault it is.

Also, most distros are going the Gnome-3 / Unity way anyway, which is just the same as Metro. The only kind-of-usable distro that I know to date is Debian-LXDE, and half of the stuff is broken there.

Now inevitably someone will come up with "you know, you need not use Debian, you can build your own cool gentoo box just like you want". That's great if you have nothing better to do than play with your computer all day, but as a "real" desktop system, it just doesn't do. Especially if time is money, it doesn't do.
What you need is "insert disk, press install", and at 15 minutes later it has to work, reliably, and the same on all computers, regardless of what kind of keyboard or 6-dof device you plug in. I'm not going to manually partition or edit an init script in [font=courier new,courier,monospace]vi[/font], guys... it's not the 1980s any more!

Something like Ubuntu, [i]before [/i]some genius thought that Unity was the best idea since sliced bread would be competitve. In fact, had they just left Ubuntu like it was two years ago (with a newer kernel and new drivers), it might have become a [b]real [/b]alternative to Windows 8. Edited by samoth
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[quote name='samoth' timestamp='1342814283' post='4961437']
As bad as Windows is (and I wholeheartedly agree that ever since Windows XP, which was truly good at its time, every new version only became slower, more bloated, and worse overall) it is still the best operating system available.
[/quote]

lolwut? Windows 7 is faster, and more efficient than Vista, and Windows 8 is faster and more efficient than Windows 7. There are some UI decisions that I don't agree with in Windows 8, but overall it's a better operating system than Windows 7, especially under the hood.
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[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1342811868' post='4961416']
3) Poor support for multiple monitors. (Ok, i can expand my desktop to cover all monitors or mirror my displays, but why don't i get separate taskbars and taskswitchers, shortcuts to move applications between monitors, and other usability features ?) (There are some really good third party apps for this though but they cost almost as much as the OS itself and it should be a standard feature these days)[/quote]
Multiple monitors have a lot of new features in windows 8. Multiple taskbars is one of them :)

[quote]5) insanely buggy sleep on my desktop (works great on my laptop though)
[/quote]
To my knowledge the sleep/hybernate stuff is totally different in 8, so no saying how this will be affected without having messed with a device running it :/

[quote]Well, that is only half true. In reality, you must go through Metro to get to the desktop at all, no choice (this includes when e.g. the screensaver locks you out), and the desktop has been heftily stripped down (on purpose, of course).[/quote]
I thought there was an option to launch to the desktop?

[quote]There is no such thing as a start menu any more, so you have to manually add your programs to the task bar, which is both tedious and non-practical if you have more than 6-8 programs installed. [/quote]
There isn't a start menu, but the windows 7 start functionality is mostly there, it just doesn't have a button. From the desktop just start typing the name of the program you want and it will open up the search window. From there you can right click the app and pin to taskbar.

[quote]You also cannot do basic things such as log out or reboot from the desktop interface without going through Metro. A simple task as opening a shell is an ordeal now (if you haven't pinned the shell to the taskbar, again, manually).[/quote]
You can do that on the desktop, it's just in the charms bar instead of in the start menu.

I think mostly it's just growing pains atm. It's a very different way to interact with windows even if you stick to the desktop experience. Probably the hardest thing is that each option doesn't have some corresponding visual element as the 'hot corners' are all off the screen until you mouse/touch over the edges.
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I think we should go back to the roots of the thread.

I suppose the point was - why are operating systems so slow and unoptimized? - why are programmers so lazy and uncaring about the software they write ?
This is evident with the comparison between a Commodore 64 and Windows Computer -
A Commodore 64 can display a whole video game in 64k while windows can bearly display "Hello world" on the screen.

And it ain't just Windows...

What I hate about Windows? it's just in general slowwer then linux - ubuntu is alot more snappy and reliable - you don't have Norton360 constantly f***ing your filesystem to find any viruses - I don't have to wait seconds for windows to find my directories on linux - they display instantly - I love the EXT3 filesystem and how flexable and fast it is in comparison to NTFS - I love BASH to the grave - I can run the programs I love without the aid of cygwin.
I have G++ and NASM and GCC and GLIBc ... I have the aid of all the great communities of linux - nobody hates linux - linux IS the community - you design what YOU like (not what MS likes). you use the API's YOU want - you get the source code to many projects , and learn from some of the best programmers in the world.
I'm not saying you can't with windows - it's just... Linux is a community - Windows is a Company.
Bitches VS Friends - I know which side I'd choose...

And yes - it does matter what GUI your platform is running - GUI is the only interface your users have to your program (unless it's a daemon/service or console application) - bad GUI - bad experince - bad application... Less profits....

Windows won't last forever. like someone said - Darwin - Survival of the fitest - Windows is losing users and programers and linux is repeaing in the limelight, due to the steep access you need to own a Macintosh system (seriously - Apple has lost there mojo with Mac).
I read an article about a year ago about how Linux development has boosted and will soon out grow Windows developement.

Once Linux has a decent attraction for general purpose users, it won't be long until companies by the likes of Dell and HP will start deploying linux to various of there platforms (Dell has already done so before...).
Somehow, I think Google will drive the spear... Edited by naf456
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