I'm talking about these sandbox mmorpg's that have open pvp + full loot.. NOT like darkfall online.. that's a pvp mmo.. not sandbox.
PKs (wolfs) need sheep (miners, PvMers etc) to kill.. It's what they enjoy.

I know it's a niche majority of players and possibly not the type of mmorpg you should make if you want money.
I'm not planning on anyhting like this.. it's just something i keep thinking about..

But can a game like this really work anylonger?

Think of multiplayer games where there's no official server everyone has to play on..
Take minecraft for example.
Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.
It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.
So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

It's same thing with mmorpg's..
Ultima Online and other similar games at that time was great because it was new and leading in the mmorpg genre.
But later when mmorpg's came that were designed for the sheep.. they moved to those instead... WoW for example.

Games have tried to make new openpvp+full loot games like UO.. but failed because of this..
Sheep have lots of different mmorpg's to pick between.. they don't have to play on the wolfs mmorpg.
Sheep don't have to play on wolfs minecraft servers.

Even if the wolf mmorpg's design a lot of attractive content for sheep.. with rainbows and terraforming, crafting big monster bosses etc..
THere's other sheep mmorpg's out there that have it as well.. maybe not exactly the same features but also fun ones.

So is there any hope for the niche PK playerbase?

Take minecraft for example.
Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.
It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.
So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

The problem is that your "wolves" are not wolves, but hyenas. They do not want PvP, they're cowards that attack the weak, scavengers at best. All they do is grief. Attacking and killing people who are not interested in PvP is stupid wannabe loser stuff, but it is not PvP.

Real PvPers do not want sheep, they want people who are interested in PvP as well. People who fight back and who are worthy adversaries. If you don't risk being killed yourself and losing your stuff, it's no challenge, no fun, and nothing heroic.

What's the point in killing someone who has no weapon and is not wearing armour while they're bent over digging in the earth? Where is honour in that, where is challenge? Why would one figuratively want to have a reputation as a murderer of children?

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1343154292' post='4962687']Take minecraft for example.
Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.
It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.
So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

The problem is that your "wolves" are not wolves, but hyenas. They do not want PvP, they're cowards that attack the weak, scavengers at best. All they do is grief. Attacking and killing people who are not interested in PvP is stupid wannabe loser stuff, but it is not PvP.

Real PvPers do not want sheep, they want people who are interested in PvP as well. People who fight back and who are worthy adversaries. If you don't risk being killed yourself and losing your stuff, it's no challenge, no fun, and nothing heroic.

What's the point in killing someone who has no weapon and is not wearing armour while they're bent over digging in the earth? Where is honour in that, where is challenge? Why would one figuratively want to have a reputation as a murderer of children?
[/quote]

You're wrong in your assumption.. also offtopic imo..
It's not a topic to discuss what playstyle if more fun or why players do what they do.

This topic is about if there is any hope of these wolfs/Pks to find a open pvp + full loot + sandbox mmorpg that has sheep in it as well.
I don't believe there is.. And even though it's a niche playertype we're talking about... it's still very huge..
There's so many players going around dreaming and hoping and waiting for a game like this, testing out the ones that come out.. but quit because it's not what it used to be..
Because now there's too many other games/servers for sheep to play.. unlike how it used to be.

I think it's time to either end their hopes and dreams of finding a game like this.. so they can either quit gaming or try and learn how to enjoy other styles of gaming.
OR.. find out how it would be possible for a game like this to be created.

There was never a game with open world pvp for wolves. it was all ganking weak people and newbies with no chance of death.

its clear that open world full loot pvp will never have another AAA game. Its basically DF and MO.

I would imagine that you would have to make it so that the wolf has different tricks which he must effectively utilize to get the sheep, but the sheep must also have his own tricks for running away. There should be various skills, varied akin to the variance of skills in moba games (there is a wide variety of skills and spells which all do something different and can lead to emergent strategies which were not intended).

Free for all PvP does not currently have a place in the MMORPG world, but there will be games that are creative with the restrictions put into place that make a semi-FFA PvP game possible.

Currently if I had my druthers there would be faction PvP and stealing/crimes(not murder). If you become flagged a criminal you can be attacked by any other player so it is the criminal that becomes the hunted, not the innocent players. You could have several different "crimes" for players to commit at their own disgression. This is the true PvPer's last hope and I haven't found anyone to support it yet. Either the PvPer can hunt criminals, or be a criminal themself, and fight off anyone that dares to attack them.

If you remove FFA PvP I believe full loot can still be possible for MMOs as your so called "sheep"(not the nicest/most accurate term ever) would be free from being murdered so they wouldn't be ganked/griefed for their gear without any reprecussion.

What you are really talking about is in game murder that gets very close to griefing, if you want to support that kind of "gameplay" you have to find a way to make it fun for the victim

Basically you need to:
1) Allow the "Sheep" to choose when to put themselves as risk. (Having free pvp everywhere is a bad idea)
2) Reward the "Sheep" for playing the "Sheep" role, (i.e , putting a non combat oriented character in harms way)
3) Keep the cost of losing small. (Don't mix wow style equipment farming with free loot pvp).
4) Give combat oriented characters a reason to hunt down murderers or protect the "Sheep" in a way that isn't exploitable, (Most bounty systems fail because the murderers tend let their friends kill them for the bounty, you'd need a better system)

My suggestions are:

1) Don't have free pvp everywhere, keep the some/half/most areas safe.
2) Make it rewarding to gather resources (a task that shouldn't be possible with a purely combat oriented character) in the pvp zones, (more or higher quality resources)
3) Make it possible for guilds or factions to control land in the pvp zones, (build guardposts, hire npc guards, etc) and fight for resource control, (This pushes the "wolves" towards a bandit ,commando or mercenary role)

Good post, But PvP zones is something I really hate.. it gives the illusion of open pvp in the game.. but its still voluntary.. means sheep can avoid it.
It's what UO did by creating felucca.. and then everyone stopped playing the game even the PKs.

1. This means it's not open pvp anymore.. pvp zones with open pvp is not open pvp.. its ffa pvp.. the game is not open pvp if it has pvp zones.
2. The reward is that they can play the game and do what they like.. hunting monsters or whatever.
3. Cost of losing should matter or else what's the point of death penalty.. it's supposed to be a strong motivation for not dying and a punishment if you do.
Even in a game like wow it would work.. perhaps not full loot.. well even full loot would work for me but probably not for most.. but you can also just drop a random piece of armor. and you don't HAVE to wear the most epic hard to get armor on you.. you can just put it in the bank and put on something easier to get but still decent when doing something you're not confident in surviving. The better PvPers who are confident in their skills can wear more expensive armor since they loot it from victims and die less often. Battlegrounds wouldn't be a good idea anymore with death penalties though.
4. There's a lot of shepards (pvpers that love sheep) in games, they will protect sheep free of charge, and also because they want to fight against PKs.
There's even anti-pk guilds. It's easy to get some help from them if you're a sheep.
If you design the game well in all details then it would even be worth it for the sheep to hire a shepard or two as bodyguards to protect him while he is hunting monsters for example. Just have to make sure that he earns more from hunting than he pays for the bodyguards.'
You can also ofcourse just improve your skills so you can defend yourself or prepare yourself with items that help you survive and be able to escape from the PK.
And this is just basics too, You can make some more advanced features too for the game depending what kind of game it will be.
Maybe if you have good AI in your game you can let them hire npc guards that follow you.. but if you have any murder counts then you cant hire them.
Maybe some traps that you set up behind you that PK will have to disarm/set off before reaching you.. giving you some time to prepare yourself or run if there's a second exit.

I really don't understand why everyone can't play in a game like this... everyone has their role in a game like this.

I really don't understand why everyone can't play in a game like this... everyone has their role in a game like this.

As Samoth and SimonForsman mentioned above, it's not really fun for the victims. Why should I play on a PVP minecraft server if I just want to build a castle? I could build the same castle on a PVE server and not have to worry about some "wolf" coming around and flooding it with magma or murdering me while I build a wall. There's no benefit for me to expose myself like that.

I have a proposed solution:
Assume a space trading / combat game.

There are centers of NPC (or player) faction power with starbases, fleets, etc.
These centers are separated by lawless space.
The non-combatant players in this scenario would be traders, making profit by moving goods between starbases. There is a little profit in moving goods around secured space, but more profit for moving through lawless space.
The "wolves" can freely move around lawless space, but due to killing merchants they are hostile to the NPC factions and cannot enter their space without risking attack.

This is something of a combination of SimonForsman and Caldenfor's ideas, and could probably be adapted to other settings without too much trouble. I think it's as close as you could get to your idea while maintaining a fun environment for everyone involved.