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glhf

Are open pvp + full loot SANDBOX mmorpg's still possible?

79 posts in this topic

[quote name='DrMadolite' timestamp='1343262742' post='4963116']
I think the biggest problem with these games is that players are sitting anonomously behind a pc screen. They're not held accountable for their actions in the same way as in real-life. Coincidentally, that's also why I tend to frown at any analyses concerning how real-life behavior and game behavior are linked, how they "can model eachother".

Anyways, as long as there's no real punishment for being a complete jerk to other people, this isn't going away any time soon.
[/quote]

I dont either think irl behaviour and ingame behavior have any similitaries.
But not for the reasons you mentioned.

Most mmorpg's would be best matched to the irl era hundreds of years back when there wasn't much firearms.
Back then, "police" were the "military" who defends the towns and empire. It's also a lot more ugly than movies and stories make it seem.

Armies would cut off womens breasts just for the fun of it while sieging other towns.

It was very darwinistic life then.. You really think that if a defenseless lonesome girl back then walks away from the town is safe?
If she walks into some guys are that out hunting its a good chance they might rape and kill her.. with very little consequence.

I'm not as knowledgeable about americas cowboy life but in the movies at least its usually just the sheriff and a couple of deputies who are defending and upholding justice in each small town. Because they are fearless and experienced with the way of the gun.. and they are good people.. so they want to take care of others.
It wasn't easy for them though to stop bandits raiding caravans outside the town and stuff like that.

imagine the people living outside towns in hermitages... ouch..

so I think consequences are about the same.

But reason I think its different is that its not as ugly killing someone in a game.. its not real... its a game [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

but ya.. consequences are good in games too.. anti-pks will protect the sheep.. just like sheriffs do in cowboy movies. :D
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[quote name='archlurkerchad' timestamp='1343288393' post='4963218']
Just slap some kind of reputation system on the game or even justice and law system and make sure there are a price in one form or another to pay for the wolfs.
Make mercenaries readily available to defend players during journeys to further discourage attacks.
And so on.[/quote]
You dont need a reputation system when you have real human players.
I can imagine bots would need a reputation system.. but not humans.
If someone steals from you ingame.. he loses reputation with you.. because you dislike him now and know hes a thief.
You tell your friends or maybe everyone in the town and now he lost reputation with all these players.

Mercs are available in all games.. just that most games have made it so its either not worth paying someone to guard/fight for u or that you cant get paid enough to make it worth fighting/guarding someone else. But theres always anti-pks that will do it for free.

justice and law system also not needed.. players make their own "laws" and powerful clans uphold them.. usually its a strong anti-pk alliance that rules the game because they are so much more in numbers than the PKs.

PKs should not be auto punished thru some killing penalty system for killing someone.. or else whats the point? just to grief? I thought you didnt want griefing.

If a pk succesfully kills someone he should be rewarded with the loot and whatever else personal reasons he had.
The victim should be punished... and which is death... because your not supposed to die in games.. its something you should try to avoid.. duh.
PKs take plenty risk and lose a lot of things when they become a PK... depends on game design too ofc.. but for example in UO you coudlnt go inside town anymore. If you dont create a npc auction house and make it more sandbox so that players can chose to run their own auctions.. PKs can get blacklisted form them. Theres lots of stuff really.. and PKs are at constant risk when they cant enter guarded areas.. running into other pks or anti-pks.. or sheep that can defend themselves.. its not always they find a defenseless sheep.. and the defenseless sheep played very bad to put themselves into that situation at first place.. so they are punished with death then.

But pks can just create an alt char to get access to all those blacklisted stuff and town.. so you would need 1 char per account and make new account cost decent amount of money.
But Im not really trying to tell you details and what kind of systems and mechanics you need to make a game like this work.
Im really just mentioning the very basics.
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[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1343314860' post='4963321']
I can imagine bots would need a reputation system.. but not humans.
If someone steals from you ingame.. he loses reputation with you.. because you dislike him now and know hes a thief.
[/quote]
True. This works if the game world is small enough, or takes effort to travel in. Keeping track of people in-game and their reputation on a piece of paper quickly gets tiring once you've bumped into over 100 PKs, and spreading word of them is an effort as well.
Now if characters have a territory of sorts, home ground where they hang out and rarely travel beyond you can familiarise yourself with the somewhat established players in that area and keep track of them. Same goes if the game server only hosts a few number of players, but that's not really an MMO then.
But if all the tens of thousand of players they all can teleport, gate, fly or somehow very easily navigate the game world you probably want an easy way to keep track of players.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1343314860' post='4963321']
Mercs are available in all games.. just that most games have made it so its either not worth paying someone to guard/fight for u or that you cant get paid enough to make it worth fighting/guarding someone else. But theres always anti-pks that will do it for free.
[/quote]
I was primarily thinking of player-run merc-corps, and some kind of advertisement or contract system or channel where you can easily get protection.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1343314860' post='4963321']
PKs should not be auto punished thru some killing penalty system for killing someone.. or else whats the point? just to grief? I thought you didnt want griefing.
[/quote]
This is true as well. Ideally no artificial punishment system would be needed. If it's done in spirit of your wild west it could work, just give players the tools they need, and they'll make their own laws, and band together.


I reckon games like this in itself would work, provided they make it easy for new players that don't know the laws or faction, to get into the these factions and become part of them.

I think the real problem is to attract players in the first place like you said.
Sheep friendly mmos like WoW will get the people that just want to have fun with friends in dungeons, while pvp-people will search out pvp-dedicated games.
It takes a certain personality and attitude to want to expose yourself to danger in a non-pvp focused game; I imagine it's the same people that would roll hard-core characters in diablo :P
And as you said it's rather niche.

So, closing though. While doable, it wouldn't be as profitable as an MMO could be. Or so I believe.
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i play UO sometimes on the freeshard the second age and it exactly how it was before they invented trammel and felucca. PvP everywhere. It is kinda frustrating in the beginning but I have to say that the majority of players are not PK'ers and that most of the newbie training spots are actually pretty well guarded. The cool thing about it is , that you really thrill when you go deep into the wilderness and you see someone with a red name (PK). Its like, shit i am dead and i will loose all my stuff. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] But mostly PKs leave you alone if they see you are weak. On the other hand, you very soon learn not go out alone but in groups. That was one of the first lessons i learned in UO (10 years ago). STICK TOGETHER!

btw.. UO was even so cool , that even richard garriot was PKed while playing as lord british [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

nowadays you dont need it anymore, and thats quite a shame. I can understand why. UO's prime (financially) came with the introduction of trammel. Edited by FlyingDutchman
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Tibia handles this sort of good. They use a skull system, where a kill gives a white skull and 15 minutes locked out of protection zones. If you kill 3 people in a day you get a red skull for a month. Anyone with a skull are free to kill for anyone (the attackers get a yellow skull allowing the skulled to protect himself without consequence).

If you die with a redskull you drop all your items when killed, so you don't want that.

I like that system, but it could be improved.
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I would imagine that there should be something to encourage some people to settle down together, such as useful worthwile defenses that are multi-person projects, as well as shops and taverns to attract people. There should also be a simple way to track down PKers with your friends and gank them. Finally, however, there should be a prison system so that people can discourage someone they really dislike. If they have enough people to build a prison, they can jail people, but jailing people does not give you any rewards, so one would only do if out of revenge. Also, it would take multiple people to continously gaurd it, while the criminal can try to break out. As such, a group of sheep may band together to do it, but there would be no reason for a wolf to jail sheep. Also, the sheep can be broken out if he has friends.
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Two options that come to mind, both have issues:

A) Jail = locked out of your character for X amount of time, % chance of breaking out early/probation. Consequence of breaking civil law is that you will be locked up for your crimes. Friends wouldn't turn friends heads in generally to keep them from being locked out. Can still be abused.

B) A constant bounty is placed on the head of a player, but the reward is not cash, sort of "item shop incentives" for not being a criminal. Item shop would not be pay to win, only non-beneficial things. If people want to pay players for these rewards once earned from turning in enough bounties, let the value be determined in game. Thus it isn't a one shot deal where the player's friend can nab the big bounty and then it is worthless to hunt the criminal. Potential to limit number of turn ins per set amount of time. Can still be abused.


Big Aid: Allow tracking. Promotes bounty hunting, but could also be used to track innocent players unless handled through a game mechanic that limits tracked targets to criminals.
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The only way full open PvP could work, in my opinion, is by providing incentive for people to actively hunt down active PK'ers. A reward system with built-in limitations related to the incentive to prevent exploitation or abuse (ie. preventing people from killing their friends over and over to "power-level" their rep. etc).

There also needs to be disincentives - actual in-game/lore-related penalties for someone being a PK'er. This requires there to be a distinction between someone who's engaged in PvP, and someone who's just running around ganking. L2 had a pretty straight-forward way of implementing this... If you attack someone, you go "aggressive". Someone attacking you back will also go "aggressive". If you're killed while in an "aggressive" state, there's no penalty for your assailant. It was PvP, plain and simple.

However, if you go aggressive on someone and that person doesn't fight back, and you drop them, you go "chaotic". Being chaotic brings with it certain penalties. Regular city merchants will not do business with you. City guards will attack you on sight. You are considered an "outlaw" and so others can attack you without penalty to themselves, or without flagging as "aggressive". A chaotic/outlaw player is basically a "mob" at that point.

What I always kind of get a kick out of is how against the idea of any kind of penalty for PK'ing/Ganking many self-described "hardcore" or "avid PvPer's" are. Most every suggestion they make always seems to involve piling all the risk and loss on the victims/sheep - such as full corpse looting, etc. However, they are typically completely against any kind of tangible risk or penalty to themselves for ganking/PK'ing, often citing it as "unfair" or "being punished for wanting to have fun", etc. That seems to be the opinion shared by glhf in this thread.

The suggested risk/penalties they put forth for themselves are typically quite "vaporous" and extremely situational. A common one, which again is shared by glhf, is the whole "players getting together to hunt down and take on the PK'ers/Gankers". It sounds reasonable right? Two main problems with it:
1. It requires others to band together to hunt down the ganker/griefer, so it's not a guaranteed penalty to begin with.
2. The griefer/ganker can - and usually will (as per the "hyena" analogy used earlier in the thread) - run, teleport, or force-log at the first sight of someone coming to deal with them. So even when item #1 [i]does [/i]happen, they are gone. Because the typical ganker is not looking for actual PvP. They're looking for easy kills with little or no risk to themselves.

The only PvP system most so-called "pro-PvP'ers" will ever accept is one that places all guaranteed risk/loss on the victim - with the reward of "full loot" - while keeping any risk to themselves as conditional and avoidable as possible.

The only suggestions they seem to support in terms of lessening ganking/griefing is for the sheep to go somewhere else. Basically... run away and stroke the ganker's ego. Of course, when the sheep/victim leaves, they're regarded as a "carebear" for not standing there and being the willing victim.

Again, GLHF's arguments are [i]so [/i]familiar, as I've seen them in thread after thread when this such discussion comes up.

I made a suggestion to balance the playing field for the PK'ers and non-PK'ers in TERA's forums some time back as, at the time anyway, it pretty much favored the chaotic players/griefers/gankers. You wouldn't believe the outrage and indignance that was hurled back at me for even suggesting that a PK'ers existence be a bit more dangerous than it was. The strongest arguments against my suggestions came from those who always argued for "more risk and danger". Of course, and as usual, the only "risk" or "danger" they're in favor of is that piled on their victims. Edited by Wolfsong73
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[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1343228194' post='4962947']
I wonder how that mod became so successful tho.. being perma death and open pvp.. doesnt make sense! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]
[/quote]

Honestly, that's the only way it does make sense. If you die, you die. Everyone can kill and lose it all. If a player can't be "godly", open pvp makes the most sense in the whole design. Where is the fun if you can be epic and never die? Just for that one player. If there is no cost, only the first to reach the top can screw up every body else. That is not good design. IMHO (I have not played the game)

(I have played true open PvP 2d games in the past, for years. You got exp for killing, but couldn't take items away. It had a bounty system, it made you a target by increasing the amount of EXP and money you gave for being killed, and that was cool. I have been a "sheep" and a "wolf", but it becomes fun only after you are capped or near capped and if the game is real time based combat, otherwise it would just plainly and utterly suck.)~Personal Opinion. Edited by 2DExtremeOwner
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I think that it depends on how much of a sandbox it is. If it's one where people band together in large cities that they make themselves, then it would be best to give the players themselves the responsibility of punishing the wicked.
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There are a few reasons why the wolf/sheep thing is a tough nut to crack for game designers, and reason one is that [i]people don't want to be sheep[/i].

Everyone wants to be the wolf. Yet, for every wolf in a forest there are a ton of "sheep" (deer, rabbits, whatever). Being a wolf is hard. Dumb wolves die. Weak wolves die. Slow wolves die.

When you come to the problem of players beings so-called wolves, you need to take into account that in most games they have no needs. Characters of high enough level can heal themselves and stay out away from population centers forever. Real bandits and thieves needed those centers because they, too, needed the benefits of society. Food, shelter, health care, etc. You might introduce a couple of these into a game to limit loner PvP activity.

If I ever designed anything approaching MMO status, it might not be hugely popular, but here's how I might go about the issue of 1v1 or small group PvP (wars are a different matter):

A) Players engaging in non-consensual PvP ("Wolves") open themselves up to permadeath situations, or at the very least increased corpse looting and loss due to death.
B) Wolves require supplies to survive (probably would be true of all players) such as food. They can't just go dormant for a long time to let people forget about them. They need to keep eating.
C) If a wolf is unsuccessful in a kill, or has witnesses for his crimes, local towns will know about him. The justice system will act accordingly depending on level of his actions. Also, guards are not cannon fodder. You don't want to screw with them unless you are pretty badass yourself.
D) Abilty to self-heal is limited.

Those are a few thoughts. Obviously the overall design is tied into a thousand and other games systems. The main point: You can't make being a wolf easy. You have to make it hard enough that most players won't bother. If they [i]do[/i] and they don't have the smarts, they fail miserably. Only the strongest should be able to hack it playing this kind of game, and even then they face the possibility of a vigilante party coming for their ass.
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Salem, its a new mmo..the character graphics annoy me, but sandbox open pvp with perma death. http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/salem
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yes. you give all power to advance to "sheep", and give them a way to revenge.

haven and heath: all exp gained through crafted items, pvper activity results in scents (tracking and summoning offline players), and perma death.

eve: sure everyone levels with time but real advancement is gaining the ability to replace loss, further the real game is a market simulation.

I really don't see any good design coming out of a post that sees builders, designers, networkers, and artisans as nothing more than prey. your goal is to design for the former... no one plays prey.
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Ideally, if sheeps aren't careful, then wolves could kill them and the wolves would get more stuff than the sheep. However, if the sheep are careful, then they don't get killed and get all the stuff.
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The "chaotic" notion that Wolfsong mentioned is close to my line of thinking on this subject. You can use a flagging system to restrict a player's freedom of movement and access to shared resources and services. When an act of aggression is performed, it is judged on a few criteria. Did the victim fight back? What was the disparity in power between the aggressor and the aggrieved? Where did the event take place? Were there any witnesses who survived? Accomplices? Depending on the enormity of the crime, the offender is penalized. Here are a few examples of penalties that can be mixed and matched depending on how you want to balance out your system:

Personal Aggression Flag: The target of an act has the option to violently engage the act's perpetrator without facing the normal penalties.
Global Aggression Flag: Any player can engage the flagged individual freely.
Criminal Flag: NPC law enforcement will attack the criminal on sight.
Embargo Flag: NPC merchants or service providers will not deal with the flagged individual.

A little imagination could surely expand the list. The idea is that the flags become a sort of meta-game. After all, the Personal Aggression Flag is basically a duel invitation. It might be delivered via a "You want to duel?" button, or it might happen as a consequence of a clumsy pocket-pick or a cargo scan or an area-of-effect attack's collateral damage Maybe I intentionally aggro a tough-looking dude so he'll hit me back, and once he's aggro'd on me I have my team swoop in and heal me while I chip away at him and call him names in chat. A global flag could last for a period of time or it could be cut short by fulfilling a requirement, like paying a fine at a police station or surrendering to a player, who then gets credit for the arrest.
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I think the best way to pull this off is to have it faction-orientated. People protect each other in their little settlements, forts, stations etc and have the choice of venturing outside and potentially be hunted or ambushed. This also encourages co-operation of players.

Limit the amount of carrying items and then full loot doesn't sound too bad.
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Is it really such a big problem to resolve this? I can see at least 5 non-artificial and 1 semi artificial rules for the realm to significantly suppress "the feast".

Here comes the semi-artificial:
If the weaker player [u]is forced[/u] to encounter much stronger player character then based on some ratio of level, dmg etc. there would be a switch that will turn the weaker player's damage to stack in to wolf's limbs, and as the limbs can care only particle of the wolfs total life pool it will be feasible to score limb cut-off for the underdog character.There can be also some additional conditions for it like the damage stacks only when scored from the same side and/or to same height.
For recovering there would be needed to have some special herbs for preseving the part and to make some purifying quest for the temple for heal.

When the contrast beween characters will be too big the underdog can get a chance to cut off at least a finger or to make a scar. (and as it can hold only small particle of total life it will be feasible) So now there would be a motivation to fight for the sheeps, and the wolf can get hunted (which is the best teaching for him) as might weaken.

Why do I call it semi-artificial rule? Try to spar with newbies in real life [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
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Every full loot game that I've enjoyed, actually ended up being "more than full loot". Basically perfectly safe holdings like "banks" just don't exsist. If you wished to strike back at someone sure you could kill them, but you could just as easily go for their holdings(storage) and loot that. Such mechanics force all PvPers to participate in the community, meaning they are beholden and must actually calculate the social returns of their actions. Games that follow this system(wurmOnline/Haven and Hearth) actually maintained a vast majority of their community as sheep, despite having a much harder rulesets than most other PvPer games.
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[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1345942946' post='4973378']
Ideally, if sheeps aren't careful, then wolves could kill them and the wolves would get more stuff than the sheep. However, if the sheep are careful, then they don't get killed and get all the stuff.
[/quote]

The problem you have is the best way for the sheep to be careful is to not play this game.

The point the original poster misses is that its really, really hard to convince someone else to pay to be your victim.
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[quote name='IanW' timestamp='1350514475' post='4991269']
[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1345942946' post='4973378']
Ideally, if sheeps aren't careful, then wolves could kill them and the wolves would get more stuff than the sheep. However, if the sheep are careful, then they don't get killed and get all the stuff.
[/quote]

The problem you have is the best way for the sheep to be careful is to not play this game.

The point the original poster misses is that its really, really hard to convince someone else to pay to be your victim.
[/quote]

If the sheep doesn't play the game, he doesn't get a benefit. It isn't just migitating risk, it's increasing the profit to risk ratio. Also, there is more to this game than sheep-and-wolf.

Also, we're supposed to be brainstorming ways to make this work, not saying it won't work. At minimum, you should describe why it won't work, and listen to people as they take your advice and see if they can use it to come up with a solution.
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[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1350519875' post='4991291']


Also, we're supposed to be brainstorming ways to make this work, not saying it won't work. At minimum, you should describe why it won't work, and listen to people as they take your advice and see if they can use it to come up with a solution.
[/quote]

Read the thread. Theres a number of solutions, which can collectively be summed up as

'Make the life of a wolf very, very hard'.

However, when you do that wannabe wolves whine that their preferred playstyle of making other paying customers victims isnt being respected.

Wannabe wolves want all the reward, and none of the risk. They want all the benefits of being a sheep when they feel like that, and to be able to put on wolves clothing when they feel like that (note the popularity of "PvE alts" to fund PvP).

So, you either make everyone a wolf - World of Tanks - or you make being a victim voluntary - PvP flags/zones.

Either solution doesnt give wannabe wolves their stream of victims, so they come to threads like this and whine.
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Just to make it really, really clear, the OP said what he wanted

"PKs (wolfs) need sheep (miners, PvMers etc) to kill.. It's what they enjoy."

In that case, I'd suggest the best solution is for the PKs to be contributing around, say, $10 an hour to each of the PvMers, so the PvMers can be compensated for not doing what they like, which is PvM, so the PKers can do what they like.
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[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1350519875' post='4991291']
At minimum, you should describe why it won't work, and listen to people as they take your advice and see if they can use it to come up with a solution.
[/quote]

No solution will work when your 'wolves' are the same people who will abuse log outs and alternate accounts to avoid any consequences for their actions.
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There are more than just Wolves, and Sheeps. Don't forget Hyenas, Zergs, Lions, and many more :P
Lions are Pvpers who enjoy defeating other Lions, and usually will let Sheeps get away. Hyena will mostly aim for Sheeps, might aim for a Lion if they are pushed for it. Zergs usually aim for ... well, anything. Wolves might aim for Sheeps and Lions, but will usually leave Hyenas and Zergs alone.

Now, if you want to attract more Sheeps, you need more than just Open PvP. You need PvE. You also need to give methods for Sheeps to turn into Zergs if they want to as well.
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