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3Ddreamer

Game Career Planning - Early Learning Stages

32 posts in this topic

[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1345221010' post='4970597']
C++ is extremely complicated and tricky to master
[/quote]

What are your thoughts on C?
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345227277' post='4970628']
[color=#B22222]As explained elsewhere, mostly due to caring for my disabled mom and other loved ones. (I almost cried over that response and I am not prone to cry.) Since my games will be heavily art focused and I need system experiance, this was the path I chose because I liked it. [/color]
[/quote]

No, this is not what I was asking.

What I am asking is: You found time to learn Win XP, Win Vista, Win 7, Computer and Network Security, administrate a popular modding website and become intermediate in 2D and 3D art while creating well over 100 3D models for several simulations.

Why not instead spend the time developing games?

[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345227277' post='4970628']

Game maker is like the symbol of a cook.
Game developer is more like an executive chef.

Game Maker: Think cook
Game Developer: Think Executive Chef

Do you see the difference?
[/quote]

Unfortunately, to get to executive chef, you need to spend years cooking. Not spending years doing everything else except cooking.

[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1345221010' post='4970597']
For clarity, when I suggested doing a single one-year project, I'm not talking about making Tetris or Asteroids or Pong or whatever else. I'm talking about picking a set of technologies, say, related to animation, and designing and implementing all of that stuff in a complete package. Making a good game from the ground up, while learning new techniques, and polishing it all to a good degree of quality, is something that will take a year easily - especially for an inexperienced programmer working alone.
[/quote]

Very good advice. Couldn't agree more.

Given that the OP seem to lack game development experience, I suggested that he hammer out a few quick games, using easy tools like Flash or otherwise, to gain some basic experience.

I am in fact in a year long project myself, after previously developing several smaller games. There is so much one can learn from practical hands on experience. I strongly discourage spending years "preparing" and hoping that one day you will be suddenly ready to make World of Warcraft or Call of Duty with 0 prior experience, simply because you spent 5-6 years studying.
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[quote name='Goran Milovanovic' timestamp='1345268297' post='4970745']
[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1345221010' post='4970597']
C++ is extremely complicated and tricky to master
[/quote]

What are your thoughts on C?
[/quote]


C is a much simpler language, but the fact of the matter is C's legacy of "undefined behavior" is precisely what led to C++ liberally dousing itself in the stuff. C is a great language for what it does, but it's still hard to get right. It also suffers from a lack of many modern programming concepts and idioms, and requires a fair bit of magic to accomplish stuff that's trivial in other, more up-to-date languages.
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Some would say that C's limitations are actually a benefit, in the sense that they encourage a very simple design; It's difficult to implement anything of even moderate complexity, so people try harder to design simpler systems - or, at least, that's the theory.

This is mostly stuff I got from the proponents of DOD (Data Oriented Design). Mike Acton, of Insomniac games, is the most vocal among them. He has some pretty funny [url="http://macton.smugmug.com/gallery/8936708_T6zQX/1/593426709_ZX4pZ#!i=593426709&k=ZX4pZ"]slides[/url], and a [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI_GKdFQmds"]talk[/url] he did a while back, where he explains his views in a little more detail.
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True, but that's wandering off-topic. If you're interested in discussing further, please feel free to start a new thread.

Let's try and keep this one focused :-)
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Ok, I am going to attempt to meet you half way with your crazy ambition lol. I will say this, its crazy people like yourself that change the world my friend lol. but with that said there is A LOT of wisdom being dispensed here. I completely appreciate your wanting to understand and be involved with all aspects of the game development process from artist to programmer. When examining the industry one will find an overwhelming dichotomy between programmer and artist/creative designer. but with that said there are few legit reasons for this extreme bifurcation. One reason is there are the different types of minds. talented programmers often excel in Maths and problem solving skills and often lack the creative artistic abilities or understanding. Talented artisans on the other hand often lack skills in logic and problem solving. NOW with those of us who are in the game with out talent need to develop SKILLS. in order to do this it requires hours and hours and hours of focusing on these skills in order to master them. with that said its very hard for many if not most people to master the skills of being an good artist and a good programmer. Its like working both sides of the brain hard core. Most people don't have DaVinci abilities. also the scope of a project often dictates the focus of the people working on the project. If i where making some "brilliantly beautiful massively epic in size" game I would require help from many people. people that can do different things to maximize their contribution to the game. i mean i would want the best art in the game so i will find the best artist. i want the smoothest game mechanics so i will get the best person or people that specialize in that. I would not want some body that can do a little of everything. I mean some people make a living just writing shaders for games. To be specialized is not to be less ambitious it just means you have become focused on one topic until your an expert above most above most in understanding that topic. the same applies to game artist many of them have studied and practiced just being an artist for many many years. the programs that many artists use can consume your time in learning just those let alone programing the the creative tool on top of being the artist using it.

Now with that said i thought i should share some of my situation just to give you a heads up. I completely feel the same way as you as far as trying to be a one man army. I to want to create my own indi game company by myself. but I will say i have no interest in recreating photoshop or 3dsmax in the process. I think my own game engine is ambitious enough potentially too ambitious but i have yet to get discouraged. I have a masters in graphic design and I been straight programming like a maniac for 2 solid years now and I am still in the process of producing my first game. a year project that you focus on and massage until it is very clean and worked out is good advice.

I am telling you from some one that has had a few Computer science classes in general programming and graphic programing as well as a formal education in graphic design its a very taxing endeavor you have put in front of you. If i could dispense any advice being that person that wants to run the restaurant and do some cooking, you should learn the most important restaurant running jobs first. i would put your check list you made on the wall and call it the old check list then i would start programming asap because with out the programming skills you don't have a game well at least the way your planing on going about it. then i would try to implement just a few of the more tangible things on your list there. After actually trying to program these things, you will learn very soon how incredibly naive you where when you constructed the first list. DON'T WORRY I to had this epiphany lol but you then scale down the ambition so your still planning on making awesomeness but the scale is more reasonable for one person. Another thing i would suggest is try not to reinvent the wheel. I mean you kind of don't need to make geometry making programs. i mean there are a lot of free alternatives that would work just find and it would move your plans forward immensely like not having to do that. now Don't be discouraged. i find your relentless passion inspiring although a little crazy. but its the passionate irrational ones that don't give up and do great things. so you will either crash and burn like no other lmao or you will make pure awesomeness. but first and foremost you really absolutely need to start programming so you understand how it WILL affect your predictions about time because i think your current estimates are WAY off for one person. i mean unless of course your some kind of prodigy. In which case i don't think you would be asking question on gamedev i think you would be to busy being a prodigy. I mean trying to figure out your compiler could take weeks alone. trying to get a window with a spinning cube with no help but the internet is going to take you a while i promise you. let alone topics such as collision detection,AI, physics, and shaders. I mean you have not even touched on object oriented programming yet or algorithms such as recursion or searching/Sorting. I think you should start getting your feet wet and come back to your list of awesomeness and update it. I do hope you can figure it all out. it sounds like it will be pretty sweet when you do. But even if you have to compromise a little don't be discouraged.
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Hi, greenzone


The whole post by you I read carefully. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img] (A big post, too)

Reinventing the wheel is really not what I want to do. I tried 3DS Max and Blender, which I feel strongly both have many features which I probably will never use or I don't want to use some of them because I don't like how cumbersome the programs are. Perhaps I could be wrong, but I feel that the documentation and online help are atrocious with both of them. Added to this is the reality that I have started studying and working C# which I enjoy very much. Back in the middle 1980s I discovered that I have strong natural talents to learn and problem solve in math and computer languages. The advantage that I have is in constructing systems and methods. Line per line, many people are faster than me, but the advantage that I have is in constructing systems and the methods within them for achieving goals and solving problems. In this last area, these skills are very valuable for my becoming an indy game developer.

The time which it would take for me to learn other people's systems would be better spent for me to create my own system in the long term. I do not recommend this for most aspiring game developers.

Making games on someone else's system will disappoint me severely because what I want in a game is very different from what is available right now. The time spent in learning an existing system and keeping pace with their changes seems like a dead end in my case because I want to become an indy game developer and not merely make games on someone else's system. I am not knocking the people who do make games on pre-existing game engines ( and tools ), it's just not for me in the long term. Short term I am going to choose an open source game engine for learning purposes and evolve my own different system in the long run.

On another issue, formal education such as your computer science classes help many people quite a alot. The flexibility of having broad based knowledge of languages, software, and hardware make for great possibilities.

In my case, I really don't care about learning many things which I know will never be needed to be a game developer. My plan is to use only what it takes to keep progress moving into the future. Being ready for every eventuality is irrelevent to me because I only need to learn, well, what is needed because I will be self employed - independent.

Here is where some people may misunderstand the amount of work which it will take in the first couple years or so. I intend to learn enough to have a broad but thin base according to what I want for a game eventually. Instead of mastering a few areas in a couple years, I want to lay a broader foundation for my future game. Most game features will be shallow in their extent for the first couple years. Developing the system is almost as enjoyable as the game for me. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] ... and almost as important.

greenzone, thank you for your thoughtful post


3Ddreamer - " Here he goes again! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img] " Edited by 3Ddreamer
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[quote name='Legendre' timestamp='1345299220' post='4970833']
[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345227277' post='4970628']
[color=#b22222]As explained elsewhere, mostly due to caring for my disabled mom and other loved ones. (I almost cried over that response and I am not prone to cry.) Since my games will be heavily art focused and I need system experiance, this was the path I chose because I liked it. [/color]
[/quote]

No, this is not what I was asking.

What I am asking is: You found time to learn Win XP, Win Vista, Win 7, Computer and Network Security, administrate a popular modding website and become intermediate in 2D and 3D art while creating well over 100 3D models for several simulations.

Why not instead spend the time developing games?[/quote]

[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/huh.png[/img]

Well, I give you credit: You are persistent. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

First of all, the two most valuable areas of work for me were being on an art team for game creation and modding games. The almost two years working in a team under a game designer who in turn worked under a game developer was wonderful organization and technical experience. There are just too many things to list in the vein of onhand experience creating art for a game team. The several years of modding games showed me the many aspects of ingame features and also the way games are internally structured, especially in relation to the most important parts of the game environment.

Getting skilled at the 2D and 3D art typically takes years in their own right. Even one of these could take many people years. It is what I wanted. You can't appreciate that? Added to the art skills, I wanted to learn about systems, play a bunch of games, and mod several games and simulations in order to discover many of the characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages within them. I really learned a lot that would be extremely difficult to learn any other way unless a person had a ton of money which I did not have, so I did it the free way.

Several technical fields must be sharp in me to accomplish indy game developer with the game features that I want: Art, Systems, Tools, and Programming. Half of the work is done. A few more years and I will have the rest.

Can it be explained any easier than that? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img]

Hey, listen, I really appreciate your challenging questions, but we need to not spend too much more time on this, okay?



3Ddreamer - "So many dreams, if he could sell them he would be a billionaire!"


P.S. Why not dream big, aim high, and have lofty goals? You might just elevate your achievements if you do! I know that I did.
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