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Lance Mazon

Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down

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MrJoshL    810
I think we should all be encouraging, because being encouraging is what we DIDN'T encounter as beginners (at least on the internet), and we should try to stop the hostile "elitist" attitude toward beginners, because everyone is a beginner compared to the next bigger fish. Edited by MrJoshL

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Eastfist    160
Very encouraging post, OP. However, I think there's still a misconception that newbs pursue game development to become paid professionals. If we changed the original post just slightly to encompass all pursuits, then it'll be wicked awesome. To any and all, make a game because you want to, because you can. It doesn't matter if it sells or anyone plays it. Just do it because you are driven to. If games are to become a true art medium (Roger Ebert may be correct about the state of it), everyone needs to be free to create them, and it needs to be as simple as picking up a stick and drawing something in the sand. Then, who's to say, what possibilities ANYONE can come up with?

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jefferytitan    2523
@ApochPiQ: Agreed. Everybody has moments of overconfidence at times. Heck, back at university I thought I'd proved P != NP and I was going to be famous. Turns out my lecturer was having a slow day and hadn't seen the gaping hole in my proof. Such is life. Just explain, set them straight. No need to ham it up or smother them in sarcasm. If someone continues off into delusion-land after being set straight... well, that's a matter of personal opinion. There's always that 0.001% chance that they're actually a genius and they're right.

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jefferytitan    2523
@MrJoshL: I both agree and disagree about the art thing. Can you make an interactive work of art using computers? I would say definitely yes. Did adding movement to pictures stop it being art? No. Did adding sound stop it being art? No. Why would adding interactivity stop it being art? Having said that, is the common conception of a game an obstacle to being art? Perhaps. Competitiveness (even against the environment or yourself) tends to destroy the contemplative mood that art is normally viewed in. Interactivity also increases the audience's role and decreases the author's role. Even in a very serious dramatic game, people can choose to act like douches. Regarding the modern art movement, I went to the Guggenheim some years back. Big disappointment to me. I can't say that the art made no statement or had no value, but it was just ridiculously inaccessible. In my view if the general population has almost no chance of understanding what a piece of art means, it's incomplete. The missing part is the placard that explains [i]why[/i] they did what they did, what their background was, etc. Maybe not 100%. Art doesn't need to be explained to death. But realistically a white box on top of a bigger white box, or a canvas covered in blowflies... is missing so much context that nobody could hope to understand it who didn't already know the artist or their influences.

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MrJoshL    810
We need to always be helpful, but keep in mind that sometimes people genuinely aren't interested enough. Edited by MrJoshL

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Alpha_ProgDes    6936
I don't think it's wrong to ask two questions:[list=1]
[*]What's the most complicated program you've ever written?
[*]What framework are you going to use?
[/list]

If they can't answer either one adequately, then it's time for [b]THE TALK[/b][sup]TM[/sup]. Edited by Alpha_ProgDes

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3Ddreamer    3826
I wish that someone would stick this to the top of the beginner forum! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/cool.png[/img]

People have encouraged me who really did not have much talent or experience but by shear determination and hard work made progress. At the other end of the spectrum, who is to say if some genius in the rough (like diamond in the rough) game developer isn't right here in the Beginner forum making their first posts? ( Mistakes and oversights included )

There are all types of people in here. This thread sends a good message to everyone. We who are good natured need to support one another and the community with strong unity, so I say G.R.E.A.T post, Lance!

3Ddreamer Edited by 3Ddreamer

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WhiskyJoe    1795
I think a reality check isn't something negative in general, but the way you put it makes it negative or positive. Everybody has a dream and who are you/we to tear it down? The "I want to make the next best MMO" is probably one of the most common beginner trends out there at the moment and all we can do is give them their reality check!

But instead of going bashing them to the ground, shattering their dreams ruthlessly by telling them it's a stupid idea, provide constructive feedback and alternatives for them to work with! Can't be bothered to give that feedback? Don't respond! It's simple as that! You wouldn't like to be bashed down with your idea if you come here to learn right? Treat others like you want to be treated yourself. Doesn't mean you have to lie, but the way you bring something can do a lot to and for a person.

I also don't see the problem with people willing to make the next MMO. It's their dream, you have to start somewhere and perhaps it is aimed way to high for 9 out of 10 people, but you can't learn how to walk without falling down a couple of times. Perhaps you would like to see them walking without falling, let them take baby steps and sure, that is fine for those who want to take the hand that guides them, but obviously that is not how everybody works.

I say; Let them try to walk, let them fall! Let them learn! Some people simply need to fall a couple of times before they take your hand and listen to what you have to say and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

So to all you beginners out there, don't be afraid fall down, but don't be afraid to take that hand when it's presented to you. Live you dream, try to run and don't give up!

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Lightness1024    933
In my point of view, "reality checkers" (like you seem to call them on that thread), are people who felt, got back up, and just got desillusioned the hard way. In the end, they want other people to avoid that if possible, but there is a tendency to be rough in THE TALK™, because of memories of those harsh days.
When I felt, there was no such thing as gamedev.net yet, I wanted to reproduce half life (not better, just the same), never managed it (say 5%, over 5 years, non intensive). Even though I had already a history of 4 years of programming and many little games (some actually finished, even !).
So you can see why this can be painful, and because of that we prefer to stop others right there.
Then, everything resides in the 'way it is put'.

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larspensjo    1561
Programming is difficult. Programming games is even more difficult, requiring knowledge from many domains. Programming a MMO is maybe the hardest programming you can do.

I like to encourage beginners. Instead of pointing out all major project high risks, it is good to point to the "next step".

A games project can generally end up in two ways. Either as a success, or as a failure. And I believe the best way to learn is from your failures. (someone said that only geniuses learn from other's failures). You can't appreciate some design patterns if you haven't first found the mistakes that shows what the problem really is about.

To summarize: If someone wants to start programming games, he or she will almost certainly learn a lot. That is a good thing, and something that should be encouraged. A reality check is not important unless you are into "real money".

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