Sign in to follow this  
Lance Mazon

Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down

Recommended Posts

[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1345548187' post='4971781']

Yes, there are stories from personalities such as Walt Disney, Bill Gates and Einstein. But chances are, you are neither of those, you are just a normal guy.
[/quote]

What? I'm not special? My mom lied to me! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's the rule of 10,000 hours as well. Some of us really are actually really good developers; but we've spent years and years working to get to this place. People who've read a book and written a ten-liner just aren't going to build stuff. Not without going through that 10,000 hour learning curve. Now, there's no reason why your dream game isn't at the end of that process for you, but it's a painful way to do things and you'll probably end up hating it long before 10k hours.

A lot of people show up with concepts for the game they want to play. But the news is that you ain't ever playing it. Even if you write it, you'll spend the rest of your time *running* it. I went to movie writing class once. It's a pain of a course to get onto -- turns out those of us on the year long writing course get priority. Week 1 is always scheduled in this huge lecture room. 50 seater room for the 20 people subscribed because people bring their friends, people show up on spec... this guy walks in carrying a HUGE folder of notes and talks for two solid hours about three-act structures, plot-point systems and so on. For those of us who are there to learn [i]to write[/i] movies it's BRILLIANT. For the people who just want [i]to have written[/i] a killer movie without going through the intervening hard work places... well, lets just say that weeks 2 onwards of the course are apparently habitually scheduled in much smaller rooms. I think four of us completed the course in the end (by submitting a pitch, a plot outline and at least 30 pages of a properly formed movie script).

{It was even harder for me, because I lost my temper with the text editors to hand and had to write a tool for typesetting movie scripts in C++ before doing much of the writing...}

Too many people want to have written a cool game, whereas generally successful game devs are interested in the actual writing of games process and the cool, if it happens at all, happens by accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1345556499' post='4971822']
I feel as if I might be one of those who contributed towards your idea that sometimes people here are pretty harsh and discouraging.
[/quote]

To me, your posts come across as matter-of-factual rather than disparaging. I'm sure that to some people they will sound harsh and discouraging, but the truth is not always kind. So long as you are just trying to be honest, without rancor or maliciousness, any harshness that people find in your words is a reflection of themselves, not you.

I don't however believe that your view and Lance's are mutually exclusive. I'm sure there are people out there who could be of great benefit to the game development community who do need a little gentle encouragement at first, without which they could be deterred before they realize their true potential. There are also others who, as you say, will never make it, no matter how much help they are given. Like with all things, it's complicated, and a single approach will not work for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The truth is the truth, and a big difference between "being helpfully realistic" and "being discouraging" is the sensitivity and maturity of the person hearing said truth.

I'm all for tactful, positive communication, but I agree with Spiro here: coddling those with a blatant lack of talent (like is often seen in the hobbyist art communities) just wastes people's time. Don't tell the chef he's got promise as a game designer when his napkin sketches already tell you he can't design his way out of a paper bag. Tell him his designs are horrible*, so he either takes a long hard look at what's bad about them, and [i]learns,[/i] or discovers his culinary passions while he was off being discouraged from game-making.

*The one big caveat to all this: you need to have an explanation for your criticisms. "It sucks" is just mean. "It sucks because there's no flow to the level layout and all the weapons you designed are effectively different colored copies of eachother" is more at the heart of what constructive criticism means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@L.Spiro - There's a difference between: "Hey. Did you just sh*t on this napkin?" and "Your design/mockup is not clear at all." Some people aim for the former. Which, IMO, is not helpful to the listener/reader. If they are not good, then they are not good. You don't have to coddle them. But dropping a nuke on them is unnecessary also.

There are certain plateaus few will reach because of natural, God-given talent. But to say that practice doesn't make perfect is blatantly false. It may take someone twice or thrice as much time to draw or program at a level someone else does. But what they lack in natural talent, they make up in perseverance and practice. Granted, I sucked as a programmer when I first started. But I am surely far better than I was before because I stuck to it. However, I will admit, I'll never be a Donald Knuth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1345562223' post='4971851']
There are certain plateaus few will reach because of natural, God-given talent. But to say that practice doesn't make perfect is blatantly false. It may take someone twice or thrice as much time to draw or program at a level someone else does. But what they lack in natural talent, they make up in perseverance and practice. Granted, I sucked as a programmer when I first started. But I am surely far better than I was before because I stuck to it. However, I will admit, I'll never be a Donald Knuth.
[/quote]

I don't think its so much about talent as it is about attitude and expectations, There is a not insignificant number of people coming to these forums with the expectation that all they have to do is bring a vague idea and other people will make the game for them and make tons of money, They are very different from the people who come here to learn. (Anyone who comes here to learn has a good shot at getting somewhere) Edited by SimonForsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1345556499' post='4971822']
I wouldn’t say it is my reputation, but it is not really uncommon for me to post a reply in the “Breaking into the Industry” section that is extremely discouraging.
[/quote]

That's odd, I find some of your posts to be [i]too[/i] encouraging in that forum, especially around the 'how can I work in other countries?' questions.

[quote name='BCullis' timestamp='1345558278' post='4971830']
coddling those with a blatant lack of talent (like is often seen in the hobbyist art communities) just wastes people's time.
[/quote]

Enh. Many of my favorite web cartoons started off looking like ass. Hell, the first 1-2 revisions of the Simpsons and Family Guy look kinda dodgey.

And as a programmer, I know my first... I dunno [i]decade? [/i]of code might be confused with line noise.

[b]People get better.[/b] Coddling is rarely the answer, but so is dismissing someone outright because they're ignorant or unskilled. Educating them, and otherwise helping them get better faster is way better. IMO, many times that means disuading people quickly and unequivocably from a path that will cause them to learn very slowly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it's completely wrong to approach this issue presumptiously, for anyone doing that. As human beings we spend our lives judging eachother all the time, even judging whether or not other people are judging people. I don't know about y'all, but I've experienced many times that people who argue about me or others being particularly bad, sometimes end up being the ones playing world police and poisoning the air. They end up being on that judgemental power trip.

[b]I would advice everyone on this forum the following:[/b]

If there is any ambiguity in whether someone is truly being "heartbroken" or not, assume that he or she isn't. It's very nice to be defended by other people, but it can be extremely patronizing sometimes when you catch people trying to defend a position that you do not share. As they "defend" you, they make you seem stupid, childish and overly sensitive. I personally find that 10 times worse than anyone speaking down on me. That said though, I am 31 years old and have had my share life experience. Other, younger members, may not be so lucky and, in their naivety, take unnecessary offence of someone's words. Now, I think most people on these forums are old enough to stand on their own two feet, and anyone younger or otherwise more sensitive will most often (if not always) react quite badly to such aggression - meaning that it's clear when it happens and people can comment on it either way.

However, that's not to say that the problem is to be ignored either. But usually, things that needs to be resolved will get resolved, albeit with a little downhill trip before the next peak. But if the end is good, everything is good IMO. Provided of course, that the end is indeed good.

[b]There's also the problem of culture crash:[/b]

On the internet, we constantly have to deal with people from all across the globe and we all have different ways to communicate. Especially considering that 90% of us likely has english as a secondary language. That means that people WILL get misunderstood, so why not stay on the safe side and just assume that ALL negativity boils down to misunderstandings?

[b]The two-fold battle against bullying:[/b]

In order to prevent and reduce bullying, there's been proven to be two things that must be done in conjunction:

First, one needs to do the obvious and discourage any form of unwarranted critique. Critique should always be relevant and neutral in that it simply states a truth or clearly defined personal opinion. But even that can be misunderstood as bullying, so it's important to have some clear rules on critique and make sure that newcomers understand the criteriae for reporting people (and encourage them to do so when those are indeed met).

But secondly, discouragement must also be coupled with a lesson in growing a spine as well. There's any number of situations that people could've easily just walked away from if they just let it go. I'm actually astonished by the vast number of crystalline personalities that roam the internet. I'm not even sure if they truly are this sensitive, or if they're merely playing the "sympathy card" as a well-known divide-and-conquer tactic. Too many people are so fixed on "winning a debate" (and I'm sorry to say I've had my own rounds with that myself - hence my current stance), that they forget the most important part - it's just words on a forum. My point here is that "bullying" is a fickle expression, highly dependent on whom you're asking.

There are things that people can say to me, that other people will break up in tears for having listened to. People are different, and we all got our reasons. And I got some chips on my shoulders that some others would just frown upon as well. It's life, we live it and deal with things in the way we've been brought up to do. But respecting some people without stomping over others, is harder that it looks. As such, the neutral stance should always be encouraged - but an active neutrality (stating your opinions on any matter), NOT a passivity to what is happening.

Ultimately, I think it's all a balance issue, but I also think we need to take a pause and figure out what exactly we're trying to debug. Because the way I see it, it's more often than not a "problem" that doesn't require fixing. In fact, it's a problem that we [i]need[/i] in society, because downfalls are exactly what grows us our spines in life.

====================

So, after that lengthy comment, I'll revert to simplicity and say this: If there's something I feel is bad, I comment on it. I try to be constructive and concise, but if I end up becoming all emotional only to later shut my mouth when a moderator reminds me - is the situation really that bad?

Just some random, variably coherent thoughts from me. Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[b]Some more thoughts:[/b]

I think it's easy to think that others are being overly encouraging, if you yourself are being overly pessimistic - and vice versa. I have had an overwhelming learning curve in knowing what the human brain can actually do or not, and I think it's kinda underestimating of nature herself to assume that you need to moderate your encouragements in any way. If things are unrealistic and people are genuinely seeking truth, then it's shown to them constantly anyways. But if people are NOT genuinely seeking truth, then no amount of realism or encouragement will ever save them from oblivion. THEY are the only ones themselves, who can do that.

If I have to choose between two things - I'd rather be overly encouraging than opposite. Too many dreams are extinguished too early, when we clearly are not in the position of a teacher. Let THEM handle the discouragement, because at least they have official papers saying that they know what the heck they're talking about.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as heck don't know what I'm talking about, 70% of the time. And that's ok, because at least I'm not trapped by the Dunning-Kruger effect like most people are. Edited by DrMadolite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I remember when I first wanted to create video games. It wasn't about programming them. It becomes obvious, once you begin down the road of a beginner that things become technical and, dare I say tedious, to people that want to "simply" create something visually exciting and/or tell a legendary story. I think all of us are here to do exactly this having persevered, feeling either obligation or excitement while learning how to write code. Because programming is a word that is linked to any beginner's favorite video game, it's an exciting venture (until slammed by a know-it-all that takes too much pride in their contribution). There is a bittersweet aftertaste to everything in life. I think perpetuating negativity towards a far-fetched goal in game development, because it happened to you... is worthless. Cheers to humility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's a fine line one must not cross when giving advice. Although I will say that these boards have NOTHING I say NOTHING to complain about. Go have a look in the C++ irc channel, every question you ask you get trolled by a C++ veteran for being "foolish", "arrogant" or "clueless". Most questions will also spur a rather aggressive debate on the optimal solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well. Sometimes people need that reality, theres much more to life than having things presented on a platter... just face it. To become good in anything, it takes sacrifice and its not all fun and games. (It doesn't stop you from enjoying the path you take however) Maybe Game Programming could even be its own Olympic Sport?

Of course, I am not saying 'troll the shit out of them', but usually it's an answer that most don't want to hear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='DZee' timestamp='1345573015' post='4971913']
Go have a look in the C++ irc channel, every question you ask you get trolled by a C++ veteran for being "foolish", "arrogant" or "clueless". Most questions will also spur a rather aggressive debate on the optimal solution.[/quote]

Then again, just because another thing is worse, doesn't make a bad thing good. I'm assuming you didn't mean it that way, though, so I'm just saying. This isn't a major issue for people above a certain age, I think, but more for the younger newcomers. To that extent, I agree that these forums are nothing compared to IRC and certain other channels where people are, quite frankly, full of crap. Edited by DrMadolite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1345556499' post='4971822']
You aren’t going to draw photorealistically no matter how hard you practice, and practice also can’t make you an expert game designer or programmer.
[/quote]

Meh. There's no evidence for that. Actually, if there is one persistent characteristic between "experts" in general, it is their years of experience.

I agree that blind encouragement is idiotic nonsense, and that people generally benefit when given an honest evaluation, along with some suggestions relating to more realistic projects.

However, I think you pushed this "natural talent" argument a little too far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One other thought came to mind, and this is an area where I will answer *bluntly* and *honestly*, which of course can come across as harsh, but frankly this is an area where blowing unicorns and rainbows up someone's ass does them no favors...


That is on the posts about education and or career development. This is a topic that has several thousand dollars and years of ones life attached to it, and needs to be addressed in a somber and mature manner. Simply put, encouraging someone to do something stupid, is not helping them. There are a few simple realities that you need to realize if you do in fact want a job at an AAA game company...

- if you don't live in an area with AAA game companies, you either relocate, or you are screwed
- there are a thousand other people that want the same job as you, prepare accordingly
- a great many of those people are exceedingly smart and are willing to put the hours in, keep that in mind
- once you get the job, you may be astounded to discover, well... it's a job. In fact, it's a job with horrible job security. ( Look at the headlines for today... 3 major studios just bit the dust this week! ).


Hiding these truths from someone looking for career advice is doing them no favors, period.



Now, on the other hand, if someone is looking at getting started and you take a "don't bother, you are screwed" approach from day one, obviously that is not the right approach either.

But if the above type of advice is what you are condemning, I have to go on record saying I thoroughly and completely disagree with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peer pressure to become expert is not good to me. I feel strongly that success in this field is not defined by becoming an expert at game making, though expert level helps. There are other considerations which could make a person a success. For example, whether a person is amateur or paid for game making is also not relevant to making a person successful game maker. To extend it to the maximum, it is possible (though unlikely, I admit) for a person to be an "expert" game maker and do it as a hobby.

Take two people, hypothetically, okay? One person learns about the bare minimum to make a simple game and it becomes very popular, but self esteem is still low because the game maker wants to create a much more complex game. On the other hand, another person has been at this for 20 years with "expert" abilities and a finished game but nobody wants it. Now what?


How can I impose my standards for myself upon another game maker.? I believe the "bully" who attacks a poster is indeed imposing personal standards on a very different other game maker ( or beginner ).

To be more on discussion, I feel that having great natural talent only speeds the learning and work for most people, but don't knock the majority of us who are not natural born geniuses. Few people are not capable of publishing a simple yet popular game, given learning, practice, hard work, and opportunity. Some of life is unknown matters, such as not being sure of what will be popular, so how can anyone really define "successfull game maker" by talent alone? There are popular works which did not take much talent. Success is very personal, I feel, and there is no cookie cutter standard for success.

For the above reason, I have to agree with Goran Milovanovic in his last post here:

[quote name='Goran Milovanovic' timestamp='1345662272' post='4972317']
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1345556499' post='4971822']
You aren’t going to draw photorealistically no matter how hard you practice, and practice also can’t make you an expert game designer or programmer.
[/quote]
Meh. There's no evidence for that. Actually, if there is one persistent characteristic between "experts" in general, it is their years of experience.
I agree that blind encouragement is idiotic nonsense, and that people generally benefit when given an honest evaluation, along with some suggestions relating to more realistic projects.
However, I think you pushed this "natural talent" argument a little too far.
[/quote]


I am not pointing the finger here, but it seems to me that bullies tend to look down on others who they believe have less talent than them. Maybe the bullies all lack talent for compassion.

One thing is for certain, groups tend to gang up on bullies, so I am glad we have Moderators! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.png[/img] LOL

3Ddreamer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wow! Great discussion! Thanks everyone for the great comments. =D I feel I should clarify my position on one point. When I said "there are realities and requirements that you must satisfy", I meant it. I'm advocating the happy middle ground. If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong. Tell them what they must do to accomplish their goal, and let them decide for themselves if they can or can't do it. If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it. If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves. Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required. Alright.. back to the IDE for me. =D

Lance...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong... If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves.[/quote]
Again with the boxing example:
Everybody CAN be an amateur boxer, but not everybody will be, because even being an amateur boxer is very hard. The same is with game dev. Part of it is the attitude of how you handle things. If you don't like to learn, then you CANNOT DO anything game related, maybe you shouldn't be in IT.

By the way, I have never seen anyone say "you can't do it", like you described. I have seen people say how hard it is, but never just "you can't do it trollololol".


[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it.
[/quote]
How better prepared? If you tell somebody "it is hard", he/she finds out that, "it is hard", what did that person learn? Well: "it is hard". If you are lucky, the person now knows why it is hard and what he/she has to learn. Sometimes you are not lucky. But I don't see anything for better prepared.

[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.
[/quote]
Sometimes they are.

I don't know why people think just trying it makes you magically better.

I tried myself on OpenGL about 5 years ago. Before I had any idea about discrete mathematics, OS structure, lineary algebra or algorithms.
Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...

It was so over the top for me at that time, I did n't learn a thing. Had I invested the time learning about algorithms, I would have become a better programmer. In other words: I would have learned something with an easier project. If somebody had told me "you can't do it (yet), start with x", my time would have been better spent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1345704171' post='4972494']
Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...[/quote]

Not only that, but since we humans are pattern-seeking animals, we "learn" a lot of things on our own that we later need to unlearn, because it's BS.

That said though, one could also ask how Ada Byron, the world's first programmer, ever learned how to program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I'm a little tired of these "GD is full of non constructive trolls!" threads/points of view. Honestly, this community is [b]not[/b] filled with these kinds of punks. Remember, we're on the Internet:[list]
[*][b]Cultures are very different[/b]. In some cultures, being blunt is the norm, and in others, being blunt is taken as being offensive. Just take in what someone is saying and assume they aren't trying to be offensive, and if they come across that way, first assume it's a cultural difference and accept it rather than get offended.
[*][b]Don't read too much into things[/b]. Just because you start out saying "I wanna make teh next WoW!!1" and someone responds with "An MMO is totally unrealistic at this point for you, you'll fail, try something else" does [b]NOT[/b] mean they really said "You're a terrible person and will never amount to anything and you'll never make a game."
[*][b]Don't take things personally[/b]. If you say "I have a totally revolutionary game idea that's NEVER been done before... how do I sell my idea?" and someone responds "I doubt that it's truly never been done before, ideas are a dime a dozen, no one wants to buy your idea" [b]don't[/b] interpret it as "Your idea sucks." It simply means that ideas don't really sell.
[*][b]It's ok to be wrong[/b]. Gosh I hate it when people refuse to admit that a) they're wrong; or b) someone else knows more; or c) maybe that other idea is actually better.
[*][b]We're not psychics[/b]. If you suck at explaining your problem/question, it's [b]your[/b] fault people can't give you meaningful responses or if people tell you "X is better" and you say "But X is specifically not available to me" when you never mentioned that before. Clarify misunderstandings and responses.
[*][b]Be grateful[/b]. I hate it when I see someone who gets upset if a) they aren't getting responses fast enough; or b) someone misunderstands something and responds to something you didn't actually ask; or c) feel entitled. Just be nice and polite. Clarify and thank.
[*][b]Learn to take criticism constructively[/b]. It's entirely up to you whether or not criticism is constructive. Honestly. Even if someone doesn't express it in a very constructive way (see cultures above), [b]you can still take it constructively[/b].
[*][b]Thicken your skin[/b]. If you have a soft skin, you will bleed. Horribly. Probably to death. Even if someone calls you a block headed nincompoop, don't freak out. Just accept the fact that there are ~7 billion people in this world, and yes, some of them are douche bags. Let it go. Be better than that.
[*][b]You can still act like a grown up, you know[/b]. I hate it when people say "That hurt my feelings and it doesn't help me" to everyone but the person who offended them. If someone is rubbing you the wrong way, feel free to tell them! If you feel like someone is doing more damage than good, send a PM to them! Be an adult about it though. Don't just whine. Most people are reasonable. Some are idiots, and you'll learn quickly who the idiots are, and then you can just tune them out and completely ignore them.
[*]Anything else I forgot to add to this list.
[/list]


It's good to encourage people, and it's good to give them reality checks. But it's not good to forget we're on the Internet here... Edited by Cornstalks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bluefirehawk,

I feel that it is important to keep the general principles clear without being distracted with exceptions too much. Let me show you what I am saying. My responses are in [color=#993300]dark orange [/color]here.

[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1345704171' post='4972494']
[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
If you are telling them they can't do it, you're doing it wrong... If they don't actually try, well, they eliminated themselves.[/quote]
Again with the boxing example:
Everybody CAN be an amateur boxer, but not everybody will be, because even being an amateur boxer is very hard. The same is with game dev. Part of it is the attitude of how you handle things. If you don't like to learn, then you CANNOT DO anything game related, maybe you shouldn't be in IT.

[color=#993300]Some beginners seem to not realize that becoming a game developer is much harder than they thought, as most of us know here (Game developer being much more than simply a game maker). We should agree here. However, I feel that it is rare for someone to enter the forums and not like to learn. [/color]

By the way, I have never seen anyone say "you can't do it", like you described. I have seen people say how hard it is, but never just "you can't do it trollololol".

[color=#993300]Some people almost every day here say it with implications and innuendo, though experienced people are not deceived into believing that the motives of negative people are 100 % pure. There are plenty of examples expressing "you can't do it" without actually using those words.[/color]

[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
If they actually starting trying to accomplish their goal, then they'll find out soon enough what you were talking about, and they'll be all the better prepared for it.
[/quote]
How better prepared? If you tell somebody "it is hard", he/she finds out that, "it is hard", what did that person learn? Well: "it is hard". If you are lucky, the person now knows why it is hard and what he/she has to learn. Sometimes you are not lucky. But I don't see anything for better prepared.

[color=#993300]Realizing how hard will allow the learner to make plans for the tough times and be mentally prepared. No plan would greatly increase risks and cause much more work on things which will never be used again. Too many surprises and unnecessary work are a condition for possible failure or quitting. Instictively, people make plans and preparations when they are informed that tough times are coming with their chosen path. [/color]

[color=#993300]Letting them know that becoming a game developer is hard would be like saying that they are embarking on a huge ocean or hiking across a gigantic mountain forrest, which increases the need in their mind for a course of action (plan), preparations, and supplies for the journey. It is a "heads up" that triggers greater alertness and instinct to adapt.[/color]

[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.
[/quote]
Sometimes they are.

I don't know why people think just trying it makes you magically better.

I tried myself on OpenGL about 5 years ago. Before I had any idea about discrete mathematics, OS structure, lineary algebra or algorithms.
Well, I failed. What did I learn? It is hard. Why? Because I have no idea what I am doing...

It was so over the top for me at that time, I did n't learn a thing. Had I invested the time learning about algorithms, I would have become a better programmer. In other words: I would have learned something with an easier project. If somebody had told me "you can't do it (yet), start with x", my time would have been better spent.

[color=#993300]Focused on the phrase,[/color] [color=#993300][quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345688867' post='4972449']
Either way, negative "you can't do it" comments were not required.
[/quote], I have to agree with Lance.[/color]


[color=#993300]The key word which he used is "negative". Negative attitude in aviation terms means that the nose of the craft is heading down. Lance is talking about a shove downward on the beginner, I feel. Is this correct, Lance?[/color]

[color=#993300]Relatively rare is it that something can't be done in technical ways, but some things are much better than others. If a way doesn't not exist, almost always a way could be invented to do it but might take a long time.[/color]

[color=#993300]So I have to agree with Lance, that negative "You can't do it" way of communicating is not needed because far better options exist for expression.[/color]

[/quote]


3Ddreamer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Cornstalks' timestamp='1345740288' post='4972642']
Personally, I'm a little tired of these "GD is full of non constructive trolls!" threads/points of view. Honestly, this community is [b]not[/b] filled with these kinds of punks. Remember, we're on the Internet:[list]
[*][b]Cultures are very different[/b]. In some cultures, being blunt is the norm, and in others, being blunt is taken as being offensive. Just take in what someone is saying and assume they aren't trying to be offensive, and if they come across that way, first assume it's a cultural difference and accept it rather than get offended.
[*][b]Don't read too much into things[/b]. Just because you start out saying "I wanna make teh next WoW!!1" and someone responds with "An MMO is totally unrealistic at this point for you, you'll fail, try something else" does [b]NOT[/b] mean they really said "You're a terrible person and will never amount to anything and you'll never make a game."
[*][b]Don't take things personally[/b]. If you say "I have a totally revolutionary game idea that's NEVER been done before... how do I sell my idea?" and someone responds "I doubt that it's truly never been done before, ideas are a dime a dozen, no one wants to buy your idea" [b]don't[/b] interpret it as "Your idea sucks." It simply means that ideas don't really sell.
[*][b]It's ok to be wrong[/b]. Gosh I hate it when people refuse to admit that a) they're wrong; or b) someone else knows more; or c) maybe that other idea is actually better.
[*][b]We're not psychics[/b]. If you suck at explaining your problem/question, it's [b]your[/b] fault people can't give you meaningful responses or if people tell you "X is better" and you say "But X is specifically not available to me" when you never mentioned that before. Clarify misunderstandings and responses.
[*][b]Be grateful[/b]. I hate it when I see someone who gets upset if a) they aren't getting responses fast enough; or b) someone misunderstands something and responds to something you didn't actually ask; or c) feel entitled. Just be nice and polite. Clarify and thank.
[*][b]Learn to take criticism constructively[/b]. It's entirely up to you whether or not criticism is constructive. Honestly. Even if someone doesn't express it in a very constructive way (see cultures above), [b]you can still take it constructively[/b].
[*][b]Thicken your skin[/b]. If you have a soft skin, you will bleed. Horribly. Probably to death. Even if someone calls you a block headed nincompoop, don't freak out. Just accept the fact that there are ~7 billion people in this world, and yes, some of them are douche bags. Let it go. Be better than that.
[*][b]You can still act like a grown up, you know[/b]. I hate it when people say "That hurt my feelings and it doesn't help me" to everyone but the person who offended them. If someone is rubbing you the wrong way, feel free to tell them! If you feel like someone is doing more damage than good, send a PM to them! Be an adult about it though. Don't just whine. Most people are reasonable. Some are idiots, and you'll learn quickly who the idiots are, and then you can just tune them out and completely ignore them.
[*]Anything else I forgot to add to this list.
[/list]

It's good to encourage people, and it's good to give them reality checks. But it's not good to forget we're on the Internet here...
[/quote]



Cornstalks, I agree with everything you wrote here on lone standing basis, but I feel strongly that we should not oppose positive peer pressure and calls for civility.

Everybody here is making a contribution in this thread and we are making progress! Thanks so much for this, Lance, and everyone else! Good stuff! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]


3Ddreamer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1345664386' post='4972337']
First is extremely laziness. The number of questions I see that could be answered with six seconds of Googling is astounding, but generally even those are treated far more civilly than they probably deserve. There are also the "I got C++, how make game?" questions, which take lazy to a whole new level. Again I am still shocked at the treatment such a lazy question ellicits in these parts... I have seen pages of answer to a question someone took 2 seconds to write and often didn't bother with spelling or grammar checking in the least. On a near daily basis, I see two or three near identical threads on the same page! Yet, people still take the time and effort to respond to each of them.
[/quote]

That was my first thought. It is quite hard to be polite, when the exactly same question is asked, and there are 5-8 threads on the SAME FREAKIN PAGE on the For Beginners topic list. They seem not only lazy for some googling, but lazy to open their eyes. More, they are not lazy to put the total rampage-bait-for-me-words "YET ANOTHER" in front sometimes. The poster even knows that he is farking lazy.

And I don't know, maybe I was always a thinker, but seeing the sentence "I have no idea where to start" just gets me down. Maybe we are just too spoiled by the internet and this "information society".

Sorry, maybe it's a sensitive spot for me. Edited by szecs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this