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Lance Mazon

Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down

79 posts in this topic

[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1345744255' post='4972682']
"I have no idea where to start" just gets me down.
[/quote]

Actually the expression "I have no idea where to start" is pretty much a clear indicator that programming is seriously the wrong volition to be embarking on. Frankly, this is perhaps the defining trait of a good programmer!

That is what somewhat salts the wound, when the persons post is a clear indicator they are more or less bound for failure.

Not to say that if you get stumped, you are a failure as a programmer. But if you lack initiative and research skills, well... seriously, wrong profession. Edited by Serapth
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[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1345744734' post='4972684']
[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1345744255' post='4972682']
"I have no idea where to start" just gets me down.
[/quote]

Actually the expression "I have no idea where to start" is pretty much a clear indicator that programming is seriously the wrong volition to be embarking on. Frankly, this is perhaps the defining trait of a good programmer!

That is what somewhat salts the wound, when the persons post is a clear indicator they are more or less bound for failure.
[/quote]

Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

Personally, I dig in there and search, but often in my posts there are added questions which I did not find in another similar thread and sometimes other people's threads are far too wordy with debates about this thing and that. Did you ever consider that? Maybe you are one of those skilled game makers who clogs the threads with unwanted debates about this or that.

So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. [u]Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.[/u]

Some of the first time posters might have a legitimate reason for their post which you have not considered and it is not attributed to laziness, so try if you can to stop being hyper-judgemental, okay? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img]

Patience, compassion, and other emotional areas are more important to you than exacting some kind of social justice which you may imagine in your minds. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]


3Ddreamer
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345746127' post='4972693']
1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. [u]Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.[/u]

3Ddreamer
[/quote]

1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads. Edited by szecs
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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1345747200' post='4972698']
[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345746127' post='4972693']
1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. [u]Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.[/u]

3Ddreamer
[/quote]

1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads.
[/quote]

szecs,

Personally I spend time googling and reading forums, as I indicated in my previous post, so I agree that everybody should do it, too. As a matter of fact, I spend hours each day doing so. Being at the earliest stage as a beginner, I really need it at this time.

What I am saying is that there is no excuse for bashing people in any case, even if they are admittedly lazy. It is that simple. No excuse for uncivil, hurtful posts and I will be quick to report them to Moderators when I see them. Call me a snitch, call me a tattle tail, but offenders will have a reckoning no matter how much they whine when caught. Mature people don't worry about snitches, anyway - only trouble makers worry about snitches. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img]

[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

3Ddreamer
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345747914' post='4972701']
[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1345747200' post='4972698']
[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345746127' post='4972693']
1. Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?

2. So all these things considered, lighten up! You aren't going to stop new people from coming in the forum and posting their annoying and often admittedly lazy topics. The thing which all of us should keep in mind is to be kind and patient. [u]Patient doesn't mean loiter and sulk over the lazy beginner post and then attack them.[/u]

3Ddreamer
[/quote]

1. Don't have time to think? Disabled to think? No. Sloth for thinking.
Did the 80's 90's guys use google or troll forums?

2. I don't reply to those post, or I reply in a helpful fashion. I gained my last 300 rep points in exactly those threads.
[/quote]

szecs,

Personally I spend time googling and reading forums, as I indicated in my previous post, so I agree that everybody should do it, too. As a matter of fact, I spend hours each day doing so. Being at the earliest stage as a beginner, I really need it at this time.

What I am saying is that there is no excuse for bashing people in any case, even if they are admittedly lazy. It is that simple. No excuse for uncivil, hurtful posts and I will be quick to report them to Moderators when I see them. Call me a snitch, call me a tattle tail, but offenders will have a reckoning no matter how much they whine when caught. Mature people don't worry about snitches, anyway - only trouble makers worry about snitches. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img]

[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

3Ddreamer
[/quote]
We are misunderstanding each other I guess. At first, you commented on our attitude (which was about thinking that a particular attitude is not for being a programmer), then you are talking about a totally different thing: about bashing. I completely agree with you about the bashing. As I said, I don't bash, and I actually gained a lot of rep points in those threads. I only said [i]it's hard[/i] not to bash. Edited by szecs
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Nor do I bash, and frankly if you viewed that comment as a bash and it was the kind of thing you report for moderation, I would kindly suggest you stop wasting the moderators time on such banal complaints.

In many/most forums rtfm is the typical response to such posts. That it isn't that way here is a testament to the community.

As an aside, if a person doesn't have time to do a modicum of research, they don't have time to succeed at programming.
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Well, yeah, szecs....

I don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.png[/img]


Remember that if you point the finger you got your other ones pointing at yourself? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img]

Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.

I am done here. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]


3Ddreamer
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[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1345751692' post='4972719']
Nor do I bash, and frankly if you viewed that comment as a bash and it was the kind of thing you report for moderation, I would kindly suggest you stop wasting the moderators time on such banal complaints.

In many/most forums rtfm is the typical response to such posts. That it isn't that way here is a testament to the community.

As an aside, if a person doesn't have time to do a modicum of research, they don't have time to succeed at programming.
[/quote]

That is not correct about me. I warn people who are hyper-judgemental and on the edge of acceptable that if they cross that line at their toes and go bashing then I will be on it if I see it.

Hyper-judgemental people seem to always be on the edge of bashing people, obviously.


3Ddreamer
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345751783' post='4972720']
Well, yeah, szecs....

I don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.png[/img]


Remember that if you point the finger you got your other ones pointing at yourself? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img]

Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.

I am done here. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]


3Ddreamer
[/quote]

See, here's the thing...

I don't see these threads you are talking about, I don't see these posters you are talking about, and when such threads do occur, I see the moderators doing their job.

Put frankly, intended or not, you and the OP are effectively insulting the community and moderation of this website, something I personally don't take kindly too.
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345746127' post='4972693']
Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted.
[/quote]

That's right. We are [i]all [/i]very busy, and filling the forums with duplicate questions and FAQ questions are a waste of our time. How many people look at a question? A few hundred? Even if that only takes a second (it doesn't) then not spending the 30 seconds to do a simple google search has wasted multiples of time for the community to save yourself a few seconds.

[b]It is selfish. [/b]
It shows a complete lack of consideration for others.

Maybe it's not proper to troll these people or bash them overly much, but these forums don't really suffer from that. But those posters [i][b]do[/b][/i] need to be educated in no uncertain terms to not do that in the future. Edited by Telastyn
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Why are you saying those things to me? Do I bash?
What you are doing here now IS trolling.

Close this thread please.
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345746127' post='4972693']
Guys, I really hate this attitude of judgement on a stranger like this. You don't know what they are handling in their life. We are all very busy people and some folks are so pressed for time that they literally have no spare time to google or troll the forums at the time they posted. Others may have some kind of disability but want to make games. You can't really think you know every motive for a first time post, do you?
[/quote]

I agree with Serapth on this point. Game programming takes lots of time and effort, and a lot of patience. If one doesn't have the time and patience to do even a few tens of minutes of research on a given topic, how is one ever going to find the time and patience to actually work on a game? Now, I often see that posters here are often willing to ignore that in order to help people, but I'd argue that there are times when this needs to be emphasized if not merely pointed out at least.

[quote]don't intend to go on the attack on anyone in particular, but many of the people who are hostile to the lazy people and saying that they will never amount to anything are themselves not being professional about it by wasting time in judging the lazy people.[/quote]

You're right, they ARE wasting time. They are wasting time that could be spent working on their own projects. They're wasting time that could be spent with their families, or spent entertaining themselves, or working on hobbies completely unrelated to programming. Some people even waste time at work - all in order to try to help people with what they're doing. That the advice isn't immediately perceived as helpful does not change the fact that the vast majority of posters here post because they want to - not because they have to.

Saying that someone will "never amount to anything" is a bit uncalled for, I must say, but pointing out genuine laziness (and pointing out the lack of merit thereof) I think should be perfectly fair game, especially if it helps the lazy person get over their laziness. I must also say that I've never seen anything like you're describing. Methinks that there is a good deal of hyperbole in this thread.

[quote]Come now, people, you can do better than that, but it will take compassion. In the long run, emotional intelligence is far more important than programming knowledge.[/quote]

More important for what, specifically? Speaking from experience, there exist cases where programming ability/knowledge is definitely more important than "emotional intelligence". Edited by Oberon_Command
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I just read the first post of this and I cant beleive how awe-inspiring that was... seriously. That just blew me away. Thats the encouragement i needed, but didnt know I needed... I cant describe my feelings on this enough without screwing up my what my initial reaction was. The programs and games I have made so far are only texts so no colors, sounds, shapes, or any of that awesome stuff but now that I heard that "speech"..... its just awesome. Thanks for that.
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I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult. Everyone should be allowed to dream because if we couldn't set goals higher than what we could normally achieve, technogly would not be at it's current state today! I remember stories from people in their 70's still laughing about the idea of using a "card" to pay for things, yet it's here...

New programers can save themselves a lot of grief by sharing ideas and only sharing a game they're planing to make once they have some form of a visual or playable demo.

The key to any conversation online or offline is that no matter what you say, someone out there will always have an opinion, good or bad. Work on your ideas, and weed out the good from the bad when it comes to comments.
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[quote name='Black-Rook' timestamp='1345766950' post='4972811']
I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult.
[/quote]
Can you please give a specific example of this happening? Anyone? Either no one has been able to link to a specific thread and say "Here is an example of this trolling tear-down" or I've overlooked it. I certainly don't think we should be insulting or belittling people (except for maybe trolls themselves, but even then you're just feeding them, and they usually get banned/suspended/warned pretty quickly by the great mods), but honestly, I can't remember a time when a sincere beginner was insulted or deliberately belittled by an older, more experienced member. The last time I saw one member insulting another member, it was a younger, less experienced member insulting an older, more experienced member.

Honestly, I feel like we're on a witch hunt here.
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It seems I need to post in For Beginners from now on, to be afforded the same generosities.
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[quote name='Ectara' timestamp='1345770510' post='4972830']
It seems I need to post in For Beginners from now on, to be afforded the same generosities.
[/quote]

You already have a thread for voicing your complaints about this. Please keep it out of other discussions.
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[quote name='Cornstalks' timestamp='1345769648' post='4972824']
[quote name='Black-Rook' timestamp='1345766950' post='4972811']
I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer, or game designer, however as with any topic you can address the new comer in a more constructive and civil manner. If they're talking about making the next AAA title in two weeks with no prior experience simply not responding to their post is better then tossing an insult.
[/quote]
Can you please give a specific example of this happening? Anyone? Either no one has been able to link to a specific thread and say "Here is an example of this trolling tear-down" or I've overlooked it. I certainly don't think we should be insulting or belittling people (except for maybe trolls themselves, but even then you're just feeding them, and they usually get banned/suspended/warned pretty quickly by the great mods), but honestly, I can't remember a time when a sincere beginner was insulted or deliberately belittled by an older, more experienced member. The last time I saw one member insulting another member, it was a younger, less experienced member insulting an older, more experienced member.

Honestly, I feel like we're on a witch hunt here.
[/quote]

My post is voicing an opinion. [u][b]"I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer"[/b][/u], I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place. Edited by Black-Rook
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I hung out in the Game Design section a lot over the last 4 months, and I noticed most of the time good suggestions or advice are given, but newcomers see it as "trolling tear-down". A lot of newcomers come to these forums with very strong beliefs, and are actually looking for people to agree with their beliefs.

E.g. zero programming skills, never made a game before but want to make the next Grand Theft Auto or Starcraft after writing a 200 page game design document and selling it to tripe A companies.

E.g. have some programming skills, but want to spend years "studying" game design or learning to write technical software from scratch, which would allow them to make their very first game a blockbuster.

If anyone suggests that their plan might not be feasible, the newcomer gets awfully defensive and start claiming that they're being trolled or that their "dream" is being attacked. Usually, the thread degenerates into a big argument as more outrageous claims and beliefs are stated by the newcomer.
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Great post OP, I would not call myself inexperienced since I worked on a lot of game projects (School and personal), but I always consider myself a beginner no matter what because I'm constantly learning new things.

Here's a funny story. When I was in high school I was not exactly the greatest student (Mostly lazy). I remember taking an optional computer course in grade 10 which exposed us to a bit of VB programming. The teacher unfortunately was not that interested in teaching the course and he never really was a people's person, regardless, I barely passed the course. 2 years later I tried to take the second part of this course which apparently was a bit more advanced, but this time around I had the motivation and seeing how I had the pre-req, I was eligible. The first day of classes I walked in, the same teacher came up to me and asked me to leave his class because I was [b]"not good enough"[/b] and I will [b]"never do anything in the computer industry"[/b], he went on to say that he refuses to teach me even though it was his job and I had the eligibility. Whatever the case was I had to take a different course and that was that, but all I remember was that his words were heart breaking at the time that I actually wanted to stay away from programming in general.

Fast forward a few years after high school, working to save money, and what not, I eventually ended up going to college for Computer Science, how did that happen? Don't ask, but it was almost by luck (Initially what I had wanted was Computer Engineering). Today I'm happy to say that I work as a Software Developer for a living and have 5 years of experience under my belt in the industry, I have so much passion for what I do that I'm so thankful every day on how it worked out the way it did.

The morale of the story is, if you want it bad and you work your butt off, you will get there. It's not easy, but don't let anyone get in your way if you want it. Even if you think you're a slow learner or not good enough in subjects like math and what not, keep working hard and you'll get there.
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[quote name='Lance42' timestamp='1345319392' post='4970905']
I've lurked here for a long time, and have been a Senior Programmer/Systems analyst for 15 years. Occasionally I see a beginning game programmer, full of dreams and desires end up having those dreams crushed by those who would have them believe they are naive, too inexperienced, and stupid for not being able to see it. While I appreciate those who are trying to educate about the realities of the gaming industry, and encourage as they do it, I think it is taken too far by a select few. These few use their knowledge to appear superior to their peers, and really have little motive for "helping" beyond that. My message is not for them. (It wouldn't do any good if it was.)[/quote]

I genuinely haven't seen any of this behaviour that you speak of. I've seen people being dealt a healthy dose of reality, sure, but it's always been in a patient and respectful way and I agree with levelling with beginners like that. It's best for the recipient in the long run to be made aware of when they are over reaching unrealistically as their time would be better spent mastering the precursor steps to such lofty goals. Patting people on the back and cheering hem on their way to a near-certain failure is irresponsible. Of course, the balance has to be met, but I certainly haven't seen any.many ego trips or bullying behaviour, and certainly not in such volumes as to be problematic.
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I suppose some of us have perhaps taken the role of advising newbies too harshly a little, but pretty much every scenario a newbie might have has already been covered in previous threads. I mean every week there's at least three youngsters who ask for help on making "an RPG". At some point you have to realize that no matter how much feedback you will get, unless you do something no one will code the game for you. I can't remember the last time I saw a newbie say, "I've read two-three books and experimented with this library, I feel comfortable, but this detail X I still don't quite get it.".

When I have questions they are detailed and they are very often things that spent I a considerable amount of time trying to solve myself before coming on here. Here's a picture of the books in my local library, everything really is up to you when you want it :

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/jaeko/books.png[/img]

Before giving realistic feedback you need to be realistic about your goals. A lot of people are tired of seeing someone with zero programming knowledge ask on input on how to make Skyrim.

Not every aspect of game development is full-filling. Especially not starting out with console applications trying to figure out how to read a binary file or how to write a binary tree. Edited by DZee
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[i]I believe baby murder is bad![/i]

Um, ok. Is anyone here a baby murderer or prospective baby murder?

[[i]Silence[/i]]

At this point in time that is my take on this thread. Lots of wishy washy comments about how being mean to newbies is, um, mean. But not a spec of evidence there is actually a problem here.
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[quote name='Black-Rook' timestamp='1345790441' post='4972904']
My post is voicing an opinion. [u][b]"I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer"[/b][/u], I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.
[/quote]
Your opinion is fine. I guess I'm just trying to say what Serapth said... I don't get why this is a 4 page discussion on this site if it's not a problem. Hence, I feel like it's a "witch hunt" to kill a beast that doesn't exist here.
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[quote name='Cornstalks' timestamp='1345839326' post='4973099']
[quote name='Black-Rook' timestamp='1345790441' post='4972904']
My post is voicing an opinion. [u][b]"I don't believe anyone should belittle a new programmer"[/b][/u], I never said anyone did this on the GameDev forums. Yes, I've seen this in the past many years ago, however since then, stricter rules and enforcement have been put into place.
[/quote]
Your opinion is fine. I guess I'm just trying to say what Serapth said... I don't get why this is a 4 page discussion on this site if it's not a problem. Hence, I feel like it's a "witch hunt" to kill a beast that doesn't exist here.
[/quote]

Unless of course, she weighs the same as a duck.
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