# "Macs are better for artists"

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tstrimp    1798
[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1345580820' post='4971967']
No, I've never had a Dell XPS, but it seems like that video mostly refers to the speaker quality which is something I was mostly ignoring; the Lenovo and Clevo I had both produced a very-quiet but still-audible noise/interference through nice headphones, and the Lenovo produces some other artifacts as well in certain cases. With the Macbook there's absolutely no noise at all and no artifacts that I've noticed. I'm sure there are other Laptops that work just as well, but since it wasn't something I put a great deal of thought into I was surprised at how much better it works.

In terms of the internal speakers I think the Clevo was the best, but I hardly ever use laptop speakers for anything.
[/quote]

Ah, understood. I do hear white noise when using headphones on the mac between songs or if I stop the music, after a couple seconds it cuts off however and is silent. I haven't had problems with any laptops and headphones while music is actually being played.

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kuramayoko10    390
[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1345585055' post='4971988']
[quote name='kuramayoko10' timestamp='1345583597' post='4971984']
1) XCode is GREAT. It is right now (version 4.x) the best IDE I have ever used (My second favorite is Visual Studio). Why?
Because it provides an outstanding semantic analyzer of your code and presents great suggestions without changing the actual code (NetBeans does change your code as you type I and hate it).
Its debugger is awesome and you can attach actions to breakpoints (watch the video "Session 412 - Debugging in XCode" about it).
Its integrated dissasembly presents the AT&T format (which is dirty) but the otool that XCode provides can be easily used on Terminal to obtain the Intel assembly code.
[/quote]

That's odd, I want to open my wrists whenever I use XCode.
[/quote]

Why do you say that?

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Daaark    3553
A [url="http://www.wacom.com/en/products/cintiq.aspx"]Cinqtiq[/url] doesn't care what OS you are using.

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Oberon_Command    6075
[quote name='kuramayoko10' timestamp='1345583597' post='4971984']
3) As for hardware. The Trackpad is great and it totally eliminated the use of mouse for me when I am doing general stuff (programming, browsing the web, etc.) Just for games we need a mouse.
BTW, the 2-finger scroll acceleration is hard to forget. I can't stand normal scrolling with a mouse anymore (it gets on my nerves xD)
[/quote]

I feel the same way... about my Asus laptop, which has a multi-touchpad and 2-finger scrolling in both axes. Very intuitive to use once you get used to it, I must say.

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_the_phantom_    11250
[quote name='kuramayoko10' timestamp='1345583597' post='4971984']
1) XCode is GREAT. It is right now (version 4.x) the best IDE I have ever used (My second favorite is Visual Studio). Why?
Because it provides an outstanding semantic analyzer of your code and presents great suggestions without changing the actual code (NetBeans does change your code as you type and I hate it).
Its debugger is awesome and you can attach actions to breakpoints (watch the video "Session 412 - Debugging in XCode" about it).
Its integrated dissasembly presents the AT&T format (which is dirty) but the otool that XCode provides can be easily used on Terminal to obtain the Intel assembly code.
[/quote]

Which is amusing as some of the most die hard OSX/iOS lovers/developers I've known have always said they hate XCode and if they could use VS they would swap in a heartbeat.

Also you can attach actions to break points in VS2010 (and probably 2008, but I dont' have that to hand to check) so it can print a message or run a macro when hit.. so, pretty standard feature

The debugger can let you goto assembly view too and it'll be in the right format, no other tools required

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Trapper Zoid    1370
(2) Macs are similar to Linux with their console-y ways. Some programmers prefer this. It also comes with a great dev environment (XCode), but so does Windows.
[/quote]
This is the main reason why I use a Mac for my main work computer. It's my favourite OS for getting stuff done, it runs all the programming and graphics tools I need, and it has Unix under the hood.

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alnite    3436
[quote name='kuramayoko10' timestamp='1345583597' post='4971984']
It doesn't have "cut file" (ctrl+x).
When you are saving a file in a browser, the Finder instance doesnt let you move files, remove some, etc.
It doesn't have the option to see hidden files
[/quote]

Yes. I found this quite annoying as well. It's like a fool-proof system to prevent accidental deletion, but gets in the way of getting things done. You can move files, only with mouse with two Finders windows open, not keyboard's cut+paste combination.

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kuramayoko10    390
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1345595498' post='4972021']
Which is amusing as some of the most die hard OSX/iOS lovers/developers I've known have always said they hate XCode and if they could use VS they would swap in a heartbeat.
[/quote]

Yes, they are both great and I can't say I hate one or another, but only that I like them both [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
The only thing that made me disappointed on VS2010, the last time I used it, was its heaviness. By that I mean it was packing my projects with lots of MB of intellisense and slowing things a bit.
I am really impressed by XCode 4 because it has lots of features and my project still is light and still runs smoothly.
People I know tend to get angry with XCode because it has lots of features hidden in its menus making it hard to find sometimes and on some updates Apple tends to change their places. That is bad, but I can get used to it really quickly.

Other thing that I like in XCode a lot is the tool for testing and profiling.
VS2010 introduced much better tools for profiling as well, but I didn't get to test them deeply. XCode ones are very intuitive to use. Edited by kuramayoko10

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ksharp25    102
As an artist, let me throw in my two cents (even though it will be similar to what has already been stated)

Mac OS had been "faster" at rendering high resolution graphic and art work because of the ways the data bus worked on their processors/memory vs PC. It was "cleaner" in the overhead and background running processes vs the graphic heavy UI of Windows. Over the years Microsoft and hardware vendors have vastly improved in leaps and bounds and severely closed those loopholes closing the gap between the two. Photoshop CS on Windows is going to net the same results as Photoshop CS on MacOS now. There are arguments that Mac still has more efficient 64bit processing than Windows, but what you see on your end isnt that stark of a difference. As an IT professional by trade, the argument MacOS has no virus/vulnerability is false because no one who write malicious code bothers with Mac as much as Windows, simply because 80% or better of the global user base is Windows. Should it be reversed, you would hear "Windows never gets viruses" if 80% used MacOS.

I do tend to do alot of my 3d assets, art, textures, etc in Mac simply because that is what I learned and used in school and my software (Maya, Photoshop, Nuke, etc) are MacOS version. But, for game work, I have and use both systems. With modern Intel based infrastructure in modern Macs now, there is no reason not to use either a parallels or bootcamp dual boot solution. That is what I do. Boot into MacOSX for art and 3d, then boot over into Windows for my Visual Studio/XNA work along with UDK dev work.

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ChaosEngine    5185
One point that might also be worth considering is that for people that need serious hardware grunt, [url="http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/06/mac-pro-gets-minor-update-with-standard-12-core-option-no-xeon-e5/"]Apple haven't really kept their Mac Pro line up to date[/url].

With so much of their profit coming from iOS, it seems unlikely that Apple will focus on it's image as a tool for creative professionals.

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RLS0812    3043
Why am I not surprised folks are comparing hardware ( which is irrelevant ) instead of the OS.
Since it's a [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077658"]Hardware War[/url] ....
[quote] "" My TI99 is better than your Atari 800 ""[/quote]

Back on subject - for me, the Apple OS was quite clunky "back in the day" ( System 6.x ), with MS-DOS being a much better choice to get things done.
I discovered Windows 2, and was hooked on the GUI interface. MAC still was clunky 6.x at that point.

Along came Windows 3, and System 7.x . Windows 3 offered more of what I wanted, and I stuck with that. At this point in time, Linux was just getting started, and was stuck back in the early 1980's style of computing. ( I tried it once )

Fast forward to today. Windows still offers more software options and compatibility than MACs do. ( WINE sucks ). I have so many tech toys that are just unavailable to MACs.
From what I have seen over the years, MAC has alienated it's self a lot in the software market, and continues to be irrelevant for what I want to do.
I haven't forgotten about Linux. It's upgraded to the late 1980's computing style now.

I use Windows for almost everything.
MACs I only use when I have a compatibility issue.
Linux I only use when it is absolutely necessary - mostly when others can't figure out how to use it. Edited by Shippou

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Prinz Eugn    4418
I've never had any experience with OS X that has ever given me the impression that it is any easier to use or less crash-prone than Windows. That stupid spinning beach ball ruined more than a few hours of work in the animation lab back in the day. As for the hardware, I was just talking with a friend on Facebook about it and the best summary I could come up with was "brushed aluminum, herp derp".

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Mito    855
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1345563072' post='4971859']
Use whatever platform you like. It's a matter of personal preference. I get annoyed by fanatics who constantly try to ram their choice down my throat, or claim that their choice is so much better, or did everything first, without using any evidence or logic in their arguments. And I'm not saying which, but these days one company gets more of those fanatics than any other company or platform...

[/quote]

you have just found the definition of fanboy =D

[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1345566880' post='4971883']
Is there a not-Mac laptop that has a screen resolution comparable to 2880x1800? I'm not aware of one but I'm curious if there is.
[/quote]

try one of the new intel ultrabooks, heard that they are releasing one with this resolution, just not sure of the model.

[quote name='Net Gnome' timestamp='1345578388' post='4971947']
If you got good enough at it, i suspect you could code a game in it.
[/quote]

actually... [url="http://blogs.technet.com/b/heyscriptingguy/archive/2012/05/01/winners-of-the-2012-powershell-scripting-games-announced.aspx"]Winners of the 2012 PowerShell Scripting Games Announced![/url]

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Eelco    301
I own a macbook pro, running windows. Im not a fan of mac for programming; partially im just more comfortable in windows, and partially because I found macosx a pain for many tasks; tools often dont have an OSX equivalent, couldnt work my way through several pages of dysfunctional QT4 installation manuals; the list goes on, though i stopped trying after a few weeks.

But im in the market for a new laptop, and somewhat to my disappointment, it seems like Apple wins again. Build quality, build quality build quality; why can nobody else get it right? Id rather would have bought the new dell XPS, which looks great and has all the hardware I want (ill refrain from being a hipster and not bitch about the hideous power brick that comes with it). But appearently it doesnt ship with a functional wifi antenna, and it has major thermal issues. Its the same with every other windows laptop; they tick at most 90% of the boxes I consider essential, which is 10% too few. I spend half my life behind this thing, and I would gladly pay a few hundered more for you guys to avoid obvious fuckups.

Apple has the right idea in this regard, and even though other companies have been busy catching up with laptops in the $2000 range, id rather have one of them had built a$3000 laptop; not with more overpriced and overheating transistors, alienware style, but with an additional \$1000 worth of build quality, so that there is actually some competition in this market segment.

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Litheon    287
It seems like I am the only person that is having huge problems with Xcode.

It constantly crashes :s
It is constantly indexing, which uses a lot of cpu
When you compile it is using a massively amount of system memory, which makes my laptop run very very slow
Intellisense in C++ is crap if you compare it with visual studio
It takes a few seconds when you right click on a file #include <blabla.h> , but i think that is fixed now
When you have a lot of code that is commented but is at the start of the line "<tab>// " then the uncomment function does not work (you need to left intent it first)
A shortcut isnt a shortcut when you have to press 4 buttons at the same time. But that is maybe of my azerty keyboard.
And I can continue....
Has xcode support for extensions? I haven't found it
Intellisense does not work on std::vector std::map (so all stl libraries)
I think you can finally read wchar_t strings
In Visual Studio you can read out QStrings with intellisense without any problems, off course not in Xcode
etc.

But if you do a twitter search on "Xcode" it seems I am not the only one ... [url="http://twitter.com/#!/search/xcode"]http://twitter.com/#!/search/xcode[/url]

So I don't really get all the positive things about it, so for me programming on OS X is pure hell Edited by Litheon

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zedz    291
yes xcode is terrible
though on a mac, for speed, you need a decent amount of memory.
I went from 2gb -> 8gb & it literally speed my machine up 4x!
Whilst MSVC is better than xcode in 90+ % of things, xcode's IDE is a joke (and yes unstable) compile speed is one thing where xcode seems to beat MSVC

Personally Ive never really used Intellisense much on any IDE so it doesnt worry me

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Hodgman    51222
Regarding Intellisense on MSVC, you can turn it off. Regardless, the size of the database that it generates is irrelevant -- you shouldn't be storing these files in version control or otherwise be copying them around the place.

If you're using MSVC professionally, you should also be using Visual Assist (VAX), in which case you [i]should[/i] turn off intellisense.

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Mito    855
[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1345771260' post='4972836']
yes xcode is terrible
though on a mac, for speed, you need a decent amount of memory.
I went from 2gb -> 8gb & it literally speed my machine up 4x!
[/quote]

well, that's good, considering that you now have 4 times the memory you had...

[quote name='zedz' timestamp='1345771260' post='4972836']
Whilst MSVC is better than xcode in 90+ % of things, xcode's IDE is a joke (and yes unstable) compile speed is one thing where xcode seems to beat MSVC
[/quote]

try with MSVC 2012. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

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zedz    291
my point is mac's normally require quite a bit of memory
heres someone elses observation
[url="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1479085/how-to-decrease-build-times-speed-up-compile-time-in-xcode"]http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1479085/how-to-decrease-build-times-speed-up-compile-time-in-xcode[/url]

[quote]If you're not using 8GB of RAM, upgrade now.
I just upgraded my macbook pro from 4GB to 8GB. My project build time went from 2:10 to 0:45. I was floored by the improvement. It also makes web browsing for research snappier and general Xcode performance when indexing, etc.
[/quote]
even 4gb is not enuf, 8gb though is perfect. I can run 16 hours straight ~5million page in's and 0 page out's.
eg Ive just turned it on and only have started chrome yet Im using 3gb memory

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kuramayoko10    390
[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
It seems like I am the only person that is having huge problems with Xcode.

It constantly crashes :s
[/quote]
It never crashed with me O.o

[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
It is constantly indexing, which uses a lot of cpu
[/quote]
Constantly indexing? It does that only when you open your project.

[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
When you compile it is using a massively amount of system memory, which makes my laptop run very very slow
[/quote]
It takes 100MB of memory and 20% of my CPU when compiling.
For me it is a lot but it doesn't slow down my mac. How much does Visual Studio take?

[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
Intellisense in C++ is crap if you compare it with visual studio
Intellisense does not work on std::vector std::map (so all stl libraries)
[/quote]
Intellisense is working fine with STL libraries for me.
It is working ok with my C++ code as well. By that I mean, it provides good sugestions, semantic checking, etc.

[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
I think you can finally read wchar_t strings
In Visual Studio you can read out QStrings with intellisense without any problems, off course not in Xcode
etc.
[/quote]
If the special structures you are citing doesn't have a Summary ready for it, you can add you own evaluation string (XCode 4 at least).
Watch that video from a WWDC session that I cited on my earlier post about Debugging on XCode. You can even provide you own Python script for personalized summaries on any specific variable.

[quote name='Litheon' timestamp='1345758291' post='4972766']
Has xcode support for extensions? I haven't found it
[/quote]
I have interest on that as well.
Apple provides some extensions from their own. I assume anyone can write one? I will look into it later.

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zedz    291
[quote]It takes 100MB of memory and 20% of my CPU when compiling.[/quote]
that doesnt sound right, IIRC when I compile in xcode my CPU usage is about 390% (4 cores working flatout)
perhaps you havent got your project setup 100% optimal (eg take advantage of all cores etc)

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Mito    855
how this conversation got from artists to programmers =p

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Hodgman    51222
It was statement #2 in the original post...

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Mito    855
wow, now i see.. for me isn't even a target platform, so, i will only say: my friend buyed a mac by aproximately 1.200 dolars (calculated based on the current value of the brazilian Real). he bought along with a lot that the company was buying.

his MAC now has a problem with the internal video (black screen), maintenance costs more than he paid, he is being forced to use an external monitor (it's an all-in-one). the sad part is, if he had bought a PC for the same price would have the same or better hardware, with a much cheaper maintenance.

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derda4    148
macs are obsolete