# Torque 3d! is it worth the time and money for an MMO?

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chris3d165    384

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Serapth    6671
This is one area where Hero Engine just makes so much sense.

Not saying that two developers can pull off an MMO, but in terms of normalizing costs for an MMO.

It used to be you had to buy massive amounts of physical hardware and bandwidth to run an MMO, you had to purchase for you peak, and frankly, that would generally be launch, when you can least afford it. Virtualization ( like Amazon EC2 or Google App Engine ), changed the game quite a bit and changed things to a more pay as you go structure ( although at certain points *actually* owning the hardware is cheaper ), that is very friendly to new developers.

Now Hero Engine brings hosting into the equation... they provide an engine, hosting services, billing, etc... and take a fixed cut. It's kinda hard to argue with that as a green behind the ears startup. Hero Engine starts from 99$a year and goes up to 75K + 7% royalty for a source license. If I was aiming to make an MMO and I only had two guys and 100$, I think I would go Hero Engine in a heart beat over Torque. If you've never heard of it, Hero Engine is the engine that powers Star Wars: The Old Republic. Edited by Serapth

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6677    1054
You make no mention of if you've developed games before or not which leads me to think you haven't. In which case your doing things wrong. MMO's are some of the hardest games to make and ARE NOT for newbies. There is a reason for people saying that you should learn how to program before even thinking about making games and even then starting in 2d games rather than 3d (and this is all way before thinking about multiplayer let alone massively multiplayer).

I don't think torque has the sufficient networking libraries included for making an mmo, of course you can use some of your own in it (sourced elsewhere) but then thats more cost ontop of the servers etc that you'll need. Edited by 6677

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chris3d165    384
just for an addition i have not made any real games before for i dont really program which my pal is going to be doing. but ive done visualizations and such using mainly udk and i recently worked in unity 3d for a few months going at android dev which i quit because of the piracy rates soaring more than ever....and the intentions arent to have a full scale massive guild wars 2 mmo hah sweet game but no were just simply trying to accomplish something of this area he enjoys managing the server and logic side of things and me the art so were trying to combine those two and see what we can produce its been one day and i made a decent transition the engine is pretty good soo far so it seams like my new dev environment and but another thing guys, lets say i were to recruit people how many do you think i need to pull off a mid sized mmo in lets say a school environment ?

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='chris3d165' timestamp='1345729868' post='4972572']
just for an addition i have not made any real games before for i dont really program which my pal is going to be doing. but ive done visualizations and such using mainly udk and i recently worked in unity 3d for a few months going at android dev which i quit because of the piracy rates soaring more than ever....and the intentions arent to have a full scale massive guild wars 2 mmo hah sweet game but no were just simply trying to accomplish something of this area he enjoys managing the server and logic side of things and me the art so were trying to combine those two and see what we can produce its been one day and i made a decent transition the engine is pretty good soo far so it seams like my new dev environment and but another thing guys, lets say i were to recruit people how many do you think i need to pull off a mid sized mmo in lets say a school environment ?
[/quote]

Hmm, mid sized MMO is what ? 2000 concurrent users per world ? I wouldn't count guildwars as an MMO since its so heavily instanced that it plays more like a normal multiplayer game (Not sure about GW2 since i havn't played it but i'm guessing it is similar to the first one)

As for the number of people you need. it really depends on alot of things, if you use Hero Engine its not that extremely difficult from a technical point of view, the challenge then really is to make enough content to fill a world that is large enough to hold 2000 users without things getting crowded and to create interesting gameplay that works with the constraints you get by sticking a massive number of players in a single world, 2 people might be enough, 30 people might not be enough, it all depends on how much content you need and the complexity of the gameplay itself. Edited by SimonForsman

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chris3d165    384
hah thx aside from my own 2 maned project id like to introduce the game engine into my school i already have all the engineering classes doing stuff in 3ds max but now i think its time that i leave an engine not too sure if id like to leave torque with absolute beginners soo i gess ill have to find a workaround the thing is id love to use hero engine but i cant find a trail or test anywhere and im not about to buy a package if i cant even test it ofcourse if anyone knows where i could get a download by all means please link me hero seems like the perfect engine but i need to be in it myself to see if i like it and ill probally even bring it into my highschool im leaving in januarary soo thats enough time for them to get a good base im going to set things up with the teacher to have around 40 juniors and seniors or soo to do it hopefully we can even find that number but as of now for this post can you guys tell me how i can obtain a copy of hero as in trail before buy.

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Serapth    6671
[quote]can you guys tell me how i can obtain a copy of hero as in trail before buy.[/quote]

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chris3d165    384
so im curious why should i just wop out 300 for an engine i cant test "hero engine" im not sure if ill get anywhere with it so yea what am i suppose to do i guess ill go with torque

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BeerNutts    4400
chris3d165,

Just a word of advise. If you want to be taken seriously, even on a Game Dev forum, please, you'll get much better response if use proper sentence structure with punctuation and capital letters, as well as breaking the structure into paragraphs.

As for 2 beginners making an MMO, I'm going to tell you to not expect anything for many years. Making an MMO (even a "mid-size" one) is VERY HARD. For game programmers with a decade of experience, it's a difficult task. For beginners, there's much to be learned before tackling MMO's. Good luck going forward, whatever happens.

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chris3d165    384
Im sorry about my Bad Sentencing.Its just that im stuck in a bit of confusion and everything is just pilling up so i gess the MMO isn't quit worth it. Now what if it were to be an mmo based off fps post apocalyptic Russia do you guys think that would be a better choice? rather than going for something way out of sites i work hard but i gess the man power and knowledge at this point wont pull off an rpg mmo.

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='chris3d165' timestamp='1345737099' post='4972612']
so im curious why should i just wop out 300 for an engine i cant test "hero engine" im not sure if ill get anywhere with it so yea what am i suppose to do i guess ill go with torque
[/quote]

Just remember that you have to write your own MMO backend (This is the technically challenging part of an MMO) yourself if you go with torque. (Personally i think its worth $100 to avoid this) From a technical point of view the MMOFPS genre is far more challenging than the MMORPG genre (primarily because of the higher bandwidth usage per player and tighter latency requirements), from the top of my head i can only name 3 MMOFPS games (PlanetSide, World War 2 Online and Dust(not yet released AFAIK) and all of them were made by experienced professional teams. A MMORPG that is set in a non content intensive setting (space, a frozen or desert world, etc) is far easier to pull off than any MMOFPS. Edited by SimonForsman #### Share this post ##### Link to post ##### Share on other sites chris3d165 384 lets say we go with 6677 max 32 players per map then would UDK be the perfect tool for me i honestly love using it. but as for the online parts of things i have yet to venture it out and btw u guys have been great with the info thx #### Share this post ##### Link to post ##### Share on other sites SimonForsman 7642 [quote name='chris3d165' timestamp='1345757787' post='4972760'] lets say we go with 6677 max 32 players per map then would UDK be the perfect tool for me i honestly love using it. but as for the online parts of things i have yet to venture it out and btw u guys have been great with the info thx [/quote] Yes UDK should be able to go up to 32 players on a cheap server without much problems, (You could probably go up towards or just above 200 on a good server but beyond that you start to need a proper MMO backend and possibly multiple physical machines for each game (This is where things get both expensive and complicated)) You can still have things like persistant characters, stats, etc that are shared between servers fairly easily as long as you can trust all server hosts. #### Share this post ##### Link to post ##### Share on other sites chris3d165 384 Brilliant, Thankyou everyone for your kinda support and straightforward helpful answers this is actually the first time ive made a post on here so yea i must say im gonna be here more often and im going to inform my school tech classes that im going bring game dev to ,too come here often too . i gess udk is final then but for the mean time id like to give torque a shot im on day two so far with this engine and it seams great could use some touch ups but its nice and since i herd such bad things about it and little videos on youtube id like to give back to garage games and help bring out some nice stuff and feedback. enjoy your day everyone #### Share this post ##### Link to post ##### Share on other sites Dwarf King 2126 Torque 3D can support up to 32 players. UDK takes 25 percent of revenue in royalties, while Torque 3D(T3D) has no royalties. For a long term plan I would say Torque 3D is a better option. The scripting language is called Torque script in T3D and feels and looks very much like C++. For 179 us$ you get access to all the source codes of the engine, no royalties and a pretty fine online documentation but prepare yourself for a very steep learning curve with T3D.

For me the choice was very obvious so I choose T3D and I have not regret that until now. I used to play around with Unity but I am not paying 1500 us \$ for a pro version where I do not get access to all the engine source code.

UDK is a fine engine but the royalty policy is a real turn off so I find T3D engine to be best fit for low budget indies.

So to answer your question, yes T3D is absolutly worth every penny [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

List of games made with Torque: https://www.garagegames.com/games/3d-games

MMO game made with Torque(older version than T3D): http://www.prairiegames.com/

You can make an MMO with T3D if you got the skill, manpower, talent and economic resources.

T3D is a really versatile engine(well most engines are if one gets access to the source code) in that sense that if you know how to twist and bend the engine through programming in C++ you will be able create almost anything you like.

You should really try it out. I simply love this engine and the possibilities it has given me. Just prepare youself to hack it and twist it through the source codes when you wish to change this FPS engine(becuase that is what it is out of the box).

Cheers,

Dwarf King Edited by Dwarf King

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chris3d165    384
I agree with You dwarf king 100% but um 25% isnt the actual royalty [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] it says that in the license but its actually alot less just send them a mail and you'll get a smaller number and as for torque im going along fine with it all i really had to do is find my way around and the docs helped out enough along with my previous knowledge with game dev, even though its a bit more manual in some places unlike udk and unity or even cry engine it does the job.hah just a side note i wonder what the end user's specs would have to be to run a cry-engine mmo on the smaller size. The secret world wants 6 series gpu's losing some potential customers if i cant run it on lower specs there ,but yeh thanks allot dwarf king you really did reassure me that ill be fine with this but u said torque only supports 32 players is that a mistake? and i read udk does max 64 unless u do some digging and grinding in some dark places to allow it to do mmo's which it wasn't suppose too ;) hah not to say it cant be done APB used to be one of my favorite games that used UE but yeh whats next . Edited by chris3d165

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Dwarf King    2126
[quote name='chris3d165' timestamp='1345830130' post='4973052']
I agree with You dwarf king 100% but um 25% isnt the actual royalty [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] it says that in the license but its actually alot less just send them a mail and you'll get a smaller number and as for torque im going along fine with it all i really had to do is find my way around and the docs helped out enough along with my previous knowledge with game dev, even though its a bit more manual in some places unlike udk and unity or even cry engine it does the job.hah just a side note i wonder what the end user's specs would have to be to run a cry-engine mmo on the smaller size. The secret world wants 6 series gpu's losing some potential customers if i cant run it on lower specs there ,but yeh thanks allot dwarf king you really did reassure me that ill be fine with this but u said torque only supports 32 players is that a mistake? and i read udk does max 64 unless u do some digging and grinding in some dark places to allow it to do mmo's which it wasn't suppose too ;) hah not to say it cant be done APB used to be one of my favorite games that used UE but yeh whats next [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] .
[/quote]

No as far as I know it only supports up to 32 out of the box(yes I do not aim for multi-player at the moment [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] ). If you want better than that then you will need a good network programmer that can work with the source code of T3D as far as I have understood from Garagegames forums and website. So out of the box it is not a MMO engine(making an MMO is really a "no go" for only two people).

Anyway it has been done by big teams as I showed here http://www.prairiegames.com/ Just remember they were not only two people [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

Why not a small rpg for a start?

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6677    1054
UDK will easily cope with 32, I think I've read about people going upto 250 (by experienced users with some real trickery, you won't want to try this yourself).

Plenty of games have been sold commercially using it (many AAA, gears of war, assasins creed etc) and a royalty based license is actually quite useful for developing games, plus if its a free game theres no payment required.

You say you've played with it already so you should actually be ok, plus theres loads of tutorials and free samples available.

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Dwarf King    2126
[quote name='CryoGenesis' timestamp='1345835657' post='4973079']
[quote name='Dwarf King' timestamp='1345827925' post='4973043']
[quote name='CryoGenesis' timestamp='1345823023' post='4973016']
Is this a troll post? It seems like a troll post.
[/quote]

What do you mean? Could you be more specific?
[/quote]

Badly worded post, only two people, MMO, knows nothing about programming? Seems like the stereotypical GameDev troll post.
[/quote]

Or inexperience and need your help. I do agree that two people is really not enough and that no experience is really not a good start. The best way is to let them try to work on some programming and play around with a demo engine first(they are free). After a while they will get the idea about how much work it takes.

Of course taking a course in programming first would be the best approach. I just give people a chance before I draw the

card [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

Also they seem okay to me. Interested and curious.

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AlexBlin    105
Hi, I do 3d modeling with 3ds Max an autodesk program. I have a lot of experience using it if you need help doing 3d models or anything let me know, to make the game in 2 years it all depends on how large the game is and what you want to include into it.

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chris3d165    384
Hey guys What Should The Polygon limit be for the meshes in a single map combined all together for the average user's pc ?

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MichaelT    214
Don't! If you have no experience go with UDK or CryEngine 3. Both are free to use while developing. Plenty of help to find as well as lot's of books and tutorials. Not to mention they are the best engines on the planet (with the exception of ID5 but that is not an option for you (yet)). So my suggestion would be to look at these sites:

http://mycryengine.com
http://www.unrealengine.com/udk

Granted, it's not MMO out of the box, but my suggestion to you here is that you get a small multiplay game running, with let's say 16 people (believe me it's not easy) and make your gameplay work (also not easy). Once you have some experience under the belt, move on up the ladder.

Crawl before walk, and walk before running grasshopper ;)

Good luck.

P.s Don't worry about polycount at this stage (it's mostly free these days on decent machines) you are going to have more problems with shaders and things like that.
Go wild, and look into the places where the performance hurts

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6677    1054
Polygon limits a tricky one, you've got to consider the number of enemies on screen etc aswell as the polygons on the map itself. For outdoor non urban environments I've seen 1 meter or larger grids being used without seeming to be too low poly, there are then techniques to smooth those poly's into something less jagged closer to the player, this can then be scaled dependant on hardware. The GTA3 era games I believe used a grid roughly 2 meters in size with a few sections done higher or lower even, they were obvious as low-ish poly but it shows what you might be able to get away with. PLay some older games. PS2 era maybe and have a look at the poly counts used there, any modern machine will be able to beat them so you should be able to aim a little higher and still have a game capable of running on average hardware.