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Cornstalks

Apple wins over Samsung: thoughts?

87 posts in this topic

[url="http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/08/25/us-apple-samsung-trial-idINBRE87N13V20120825"]The jury ruled in favor of Apple[/url]. Personally, I'm disgusted with the current state of the technology industry. It's a sue-happy biochemical/nuclear/dirty war right now.

How do you think this could impact the industry* (and you)?
[size=2]*and I mean "industry" pretty broadly: from the smart phone industry to the general technological industry to the gaming industry[/size]
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The patent industry is simply sickening. 'nuff said.

I'm just glad that game developers mostly keep out of it. I've still occasionally had to work around patent issues in games, but it's not as common as in other tech industries ([i]e.g. working in another industry, we once had to use plastic tape to cover a column of pixels when manufacturing the devices, because our competitor "owned" the use of the 16:9 aspect ratio in this category of devices[/i]).
The number of video game patent dramas that come to mind is pretty small -- Creative owning Carmack's Reverse, Sega owning the floating 3d guide arrow, Apple hindering true-type font adoption, DXT texture-compression not being usable on Linux, cant think of many others... Edited by Hodgman
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I'm deeply disappointed. I don't think the lawmakers understand the legal minefield required to make a simple device (let alone a modern cellphone). If companies can patent simple fundamental concepts, it makes consistency and user friendliness impossible. Imagine if the layout of the qwerty keyboard had been patented and would not be licensed for other devices. How could anyone type on a new device if every device had a different keyboard layout? Ludicrous.
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[quote name='jefferytitan' timestamp='1345868745' post='4973187']
I'm deeply disappointed. I don't think the lawmakers understand the legal minefield required to make a simple device (let alone a modern cellphone). [/quote]Of course they do.

Bankers have created a world where it's almost impossible to be without debt. You are pretty much born with it.

Lawyers have created a world where it's impossible for everything not to require their services. They have created a world of legalese, purposeful ambiguity, and fine print. The same way a programmer makes obfuscated spaghetti code that only he can understand or maintain so that everyone else needs him.

The lawyers don't care one way or the other. Both sides convinced them to go to court over this, and both sides are going to do whatever they can to milk the issue for as long as they can. The only problem for them to solve is how to maintain their constant stream of income from Google, Samsung, and Apple.

Both sides are probably locked up in a hotel room now, double tap zooming on hookers, and throwing cash around like it's a rap video.
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[quote]
The jury deliberated for less than three days before delivering the verdict on seven Apple patent claims and five Samsung patent claims --
[/quote]

Would be good to know what exactly these seven Apple patent claims ans five Samsung patent claims are. If they are UI-based patents, like "slide to unlock", or "homescreen design similarity", then this isn't as damaging as you might think. But if it's "touch-based input to launch apps", then it's a fundamental shake to the smartphone industry and is prettey bad.
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Seems very narrow-minded about protecting US industries and about patents.

I don't think such would be possible in Europe or elsewhere! Really I feel sorry and sickening with you US guys.

I'll stop supporting Apple...
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This site brings up a lot of good points: [url="http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/"]http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/[/url]
(note of the obvious: It's a biased source with an agenda)
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[quote name='Daaark' timestamp='1345870883' post='4973195']
[quote name='jefferytitan' timestamp='1345868745' post='4973187']
I'm deeply disappointed. I don't think the lawmakers understand the legal minefield required to make a simple device (let alone a modern cellphone). [/quote]Of course they do.

Bankers have created a world where it's almost impossible to be without debt. You are pretty much born with it.

Lawyers have created a world where it's impossible for everything not to require their services. They have created a world of legalese, purposeful ambiguity, and fine print. The same way a programmer makes obfuscated spaghetti code that only he can understand or maintain so that everyone else needs him.

The lawyers don't care one way or the other. Both sides convinced them to go to court over this, and both sides are going to do whatever they can to milk the issue for as long as they can. The only problem for them to solve is how to maintain their constant stream of income from Google, Samsung, and Apple.

Both sides are probably locked up in a hotel room now, double tap zooming on hookers, and throwing cash around like it's a rap video.
[/quote]If you can't do better than your competitor, or even if you can, sue them for "copying" you, because that's how every good runner wins a race.

"Your honor, I have a patent on my running style where I pick my foot up off the ground this certain way, and the defendant clearly copied that and gained on me. When I turned and saw how he picked up his feet that certain way while he ran, I felt very deeply that he was copying me. Why, even his T-shirts are hardly distinguishable from mine!"

This is nothing more than a turf war.
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I think the case is far more detailed an nuanced than the media tends to make it out to be.

They are having similar lawsuits in almost every major nation right now.

South Korea's verdict yesterday was perhaps the best; both companies were found to infringe on each other, and both companies were blocked from selling their products.

The US verdict is actually very narrow compared to what it could have been; Samsung won a few minor points, Apple won on a few more minor points, but neither side is getting major declaration they wanted.


I think the case feels like children fighting, "He's in my space!", "He has more red candy than me!", "He's breathing my air!". Thankfully the Korean victory of both sides getting their desired injunction will force them to the bargaining table. It's like the parent taking the candy away after they fight over it. I was hoping the US verdict would have been similar.
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[quote name='frob' timestamp='1345922703' post='4973313']
They are having similar lawsuits in almost every major nation right now.

South Korea's verdict yesterday was perhaps the best; both companies were found to infringe on each other, and both companies were blocked from selling their products.
[/quote]

I guess we can see how biases affect court decisions in all over the world -- the fact that the courtroom is in Silicon Valley, and I wonder how many of those 9 jury use iPhone and are probably Apple fans?

And obviously, why would South Koreans favor an American company vs. their own company, right? Edited by alnite
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I believe that both US and South Korean decisions are somewhat influenced by nationalism, but the Korean decision seems more fair - slap down both offenders. The US decision seems both horribly biased and unwise. I wonder whether FRAND patents should be allowable as defensive patents only. Imagine two companies who create the same amount of IP, but company A can sue company B while happily using company B's FRAND IP with impunity.
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[quote name='derda4' timestamp='1345878560' post='4973213']
Seems very narrow-minded about protecting US industries and about patents.

I don't think such would be possible in Europe or elsewhere! Really I feel sorry and sickening with you US guys.

I'll stop supporting Apple...
[/quote]


There are far too many lawsuits, I feel - so I agree with the guys who are appalled by the stream of them which seem to be increasing and not decreasing.[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/angry.png[/img]

It should be a worldwide mandate to greatly reduce the number of lawyers, laws, civil courts, and the need for them.

Last time I knew Apple was the most capitalized company in the world, beating past holders such as Microsoft and General Motors. Apple is a gigantic power in the world now and its influence will likely increase at least in the coming several years. Expect Apple mobile based and OS X compatible games to increase if they have their way, which will give Microsoft a long needed toe to toe fight in software competition in general. We wlll probably see more cross-platform games in the future because of the surge of Apple. In this sense the competition caused by Apples's growth is good for game developers but in order for Apple to keep growing I expect to read about many more huge lawsuits between Apple and other companies.

Couldn't the billions of dollars spent on lawsuits and IT lobbyists at local, state, and federal levels be better spent elsewhere, such as finding a cure for cancer or providing health insurance for all employees?


3Ddreamer
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@3Ddreamer, reducing litigation would not contribute towards a cure for cancer. Also, I detest it when people use that as if it's really an alternative. Unless, of course, there really is a cure that's being suppressed by litigation somewhere. Not everyone is Jonah Salk.


[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345944417' post='4973380']
It should be a worldwide mandate to greatly reduce the number of lawyers, laws, civil courts, and the need for them.
[/quote]Now you're just expecting the world to make sense.
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If Apple would have invented the wheel, we all would have to pay...hmm 1000.- per wheel (4000 for a new car). Yes, it's that insane!
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It would be amusing if millenia ago, someone actually tried to claim a monopoly on wheels. Then, in a case of prehistoric irony, he was run over and killed, and all humanity benefited from then on.
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The patent and law system in the US already destroyed a lot of good companies, products and people - so no surpríses here. It has been a war for years but in recent years this has become an outrage, its on a peak and is getting worse and worse. There are "companies" which only do this patent sueing thingy. On my behalf, I'm extremely disappointed by Apple for taking such steps (again), as they know(!) that this is the lowest thing the can do - even if they have won.

Apple hereby is dead for me, as I do not want to support such behavior. I advise you to do the same, it's realy the only right thing you can do as a customer and developer!

"Yes we can!"
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The current amount of manhours spent in courtrooms these days is a huge drain on resources in my opinion. A direct cure for cancer, no. But if a few people became scientists, engineers, teachers or doctors instead of lawyers, bankers or politicians, the world would likely be a better place. Sadly unlikely to happen until the next revolution in country X, and even then only for a couple of years. *sigh*
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I think it's pretty clear Samsung copied Apple.

I think $1b is a ridiculous sum.

And I think I'm still going to but the apple products I buy because I like them.

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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1345944417' post='4973380']
In this sense the competition caused by Apples's growth is good for game developers [/quote]

I disagree - fragmentation and increased development costs are rarely, if ever, good for software development.
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Watch the news report at 1:18 where they talk about Samsung producing a document to essentially make their phone work the same way as Apple's

[url="http://www.channel4.com/news/apple-wins-1bn-damages-from-samsung"]http://www.channel4.com/news/apple-wins-1bn-damages-from-samsung[/url]

If you saw that on a product you had made would you not want to take action ?
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Legally, patents allow people/companies to own ideas, so Apple/Samsung are right to sue each other over their use of each other's "owned" ideas.


Morally, owning an idea is an incredibly slippery slope that amounts to accusing people of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime"]thought crimes[/url], so a righteous person should distance themselves from the patent system and view anyone supporting it as morally bankrupt.

[quote name='Yudhisthira' timestamp='1345986005' post='4973464']If you saw that on a product you had made would you not want to take action ?[/quote]Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Also different devices working the same way is what's known as a human-computer-interaction convention, and it's a good thing. It's what lets you know that "double click" is a thing, or that a few striped lines on a corner of a window mean you can grab there to resize, etc... Apple invented great conventions, and benefited by being first-to-market with them. It's a damn good thing if that new HCI culture can spread freely.

There's a [i]huge[/i] difference between imitating a publicly known idea and plagiarizing someone else's work. Edited by Hodgman
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Why can't they just get along... this makes me die inside. I understand that the goal of a company is to make as much money as possible, and allowing competition to use novel ideas is incompatible with that goal, but, gee, we're all humans, surely there must be a point where even CEO's will step back and say "what the hell, this has gone far enough"... right? Right?

What have we become [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/sad.png[/img]

... anyway, back to the real world. Patenting as it is now is flawed from the very beginning, because it is fundamentally impossible to fully innovate. As human beings, we necessarily build on previous ideas (combining them in new and exciting ways) and a good patent system should reflect that. The current one doesn't, as it allows someone to indiscriminately prevent the use of a concept, idea, or tool - no matter how basic - which drives a spear straight through innovation, as nobody is allowed to build on the patent's object until the patent expires.

Imagine if somebody had patented the hammer, or patented the use of imaginary numbers in mathematics? Or fire? Electricity? The current system has a certain amount of sanity in that it prevents one from patenting public-domain and trivial stuff (thank god) but it's still not good enough and has far too many loopholes.

[size=2]Guys, I just patented the atom, I'm going to sue you for all you're worth (literally)[/size] Edited by Bacterius
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[quote name='Yudhisthira' timestamp='1345986005' post='4973464']
Watch the news report at 1:18 where they talk about Samsung producing a document to essentially make their phone work the same way as Apple's

[url="http://www.channel4.com/news/apple-wins-1bn-damages-from-samsung"]http://www.channel4....es-from-samsung[/url]

If you saw that on a product you had made would you not want to take action ?
[/quote]
I've looked at the document. Have you? It's not a document that says "How can we copy the iPhone." The entire focus of the document is "What areas are the iPhone better in, and why?" It's about product comparison and looking for ways to improve your own product, which [i]every[/i] company does. On each page, the writers came to conclusions about what it was about the iPhone that made the user experience better, and how Samsung could improve it's own user experience. It wasn't about blatantly copying specific details. The conclusions were broad, like "The iPhone alarm tone creates a feeling of nostalgia, ours is just generic sounding, we should try to make an alarm that relates to humans better." That's [i]far[/i] from copying the iPhone. A "copying" conclusion would've been more like (making up the details here): "We need an alarm tone like their's: C major, pentonic scale, 120bps, 5 seconds, with midi synthesizer that sounds like theirs." [i]That[/i] would've been blatantly copying.

The thing that really gets me is that Apple is being such hypocritical douche bags. Was it not Steve Jobs who quoted Picasso in saying that great artists steal, and that Apple had no shame in stealing the works of others?

I don't think Samsung, Google, or any other company out there is perfectly innocent from doing wrong. I think all the companies have done things that are hurting the industry as a whole, in some way. But Apple is taking this to a new level. Apple must be forgetting that in a thermonuclear war, which they've declared, there are tons of innocent (i.e. consumers and the industry as a whole) casualties. Actually, no, they haven't forgotten. They just don't care about anything or anyone except their pockets.
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+1 I fully agree with Cornstalks.
They never gave anything to charity, hence unless they give that full 1bn. I'm done with a company that himself only copied stuff from
Linux and BSD.

Apple won a claim with respect to each of its technical patents 7469381, 7844915 and 7864163, which among other things describe the rotation and enlarge objects by touch screen gestures, and a programming interface for scrolling. Even with design patents D593087, D618677 and D604305, it convinced the jury of a violation by a number of Samsung smartphones.
Now that's Android stuff as well...so we shall see Apple vs Google soon.

Patents should expire after 5-10 years to not avoid competition. Design patents are a joke, but Samsung are jerks to copy some other things in Android. And hey 1bn would not be possible anywhere but in silicon valley.- Narrow-minded... Edited by derda4
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