Sign in to follow this  
glhf

What is the guy called with all the money? boss?

Recommended Posts

glhf    585
ok now that we're back on topic..

the link Simon gave is good.. but there has to be more places I can search for small teams that might not have a company yet?

what kind of tteams is it that need funding anyway?
is it only really big AA+ games that need funding .. because I cant imagine a small 1-3 month game is worth getting funding for because that's something they can do on their free time after work.

any more advice and tips about this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hodgman    51234
One way to research it might be to put yourself in the shoes of a developer -- e.g. they want an investor, they might google "[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+find+venture+capital"][i]how to find venture capital[/i][/url]" -- and then once you know how a developer finds a venture capitalist, you'll know how to fit yourself in to that process.

Any games company that doesn't yet have an income source, but wants to be a real company with an office, etc, requires investment.
I've recently started an indie game studio, and we've at this point decided to completely stay away from [i]external[/i] investors. My business partner was a founder of another studio that got started on ~$1M of invested capital ([i]they used that money to get an office, hire all the staff, buy the technology, etc[/i]) and while it was really great to have enough money to run a real games company, the fact that it was other people's money was a real hassle. He would spend about half his time writing up reports and having meetings with all the different investors to keep them happy, otherwise they'd stop the flow of money. With our new company, we decided to cut costs instead of putting up with that kind of intrusion into our project.
So - not everyone that [i]needs[/i] investment will [i]accept[/i] investment either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jbadams    25676
Hobbyists will not normally be seeking investment or outside funding, but smaller indie projects do also seek funding at times -- see for example [url="http://indie-fund.com/"]Indie Funding[/url], who exist solely for this purpose.

You're unlikely to find them advertising that fact however, as the general process is that they prepare a pitch and then directly approach investors. Unfortunately it's one of those situations where you really need to become well known and develop a good reputation in the market so that developers will seek you out directly.


To get yourself started building that reputation, you could perhaps advertise and accept submissions. Otherwise you'll probably just have to approach developers directly until you find some that are interested. They very likely won't be listed in any central location -- if they knew they wanted funding, they would have approached a publisher or investor directly rather than adding themselves to a list somewhere, because that's how funding is normally gained.

You might look at projects that are showing promise in our classifieds section, on indiedb and moddb, and other similar places online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347190266' post='4978266']
ok now that we're back on topic..

the link Simon gave is good.. but there has to be more places I can search for small teams that might not have a company yet?
[/quote]

If a small team havn't yet registered a company then they're not serious enough to bother with(it doesn't cost anything to register a business in most countries), Any team that has registered a company should be listed somewhere (The link i gave you covers sweden, there should be similiar sites that list companies in other countries).

If you want to help people start a company then your best bet is to visit various gamedev communities, universities, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
glhf    585
Do you think you can make more money as CEO/managing-director instead of investor?

Because it sounds like it's more expensive to fund a company who will probably want as Simon said.. salary per person minimum 4.5k/month.. and then additional costs.
My plan I had before of being CEO/managing-director without knowing it... was to be the game designer and pay a programmer to join me and then outsource art.
I think I could get away paying a loooot less money as CEO/managing-director than paying a studio.

But I guess it also depends how much you have to invest too..
If you have millions then it probably is better as investor because its easier to invest in several studios then.

Also, how do i approach companies that i want to invest in?
I was thinking more about investing in a specific game... not their studio and all games they do.. because its very possible they might be doing more than just the game im interested in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347301682' post='4978650']
Do you think you can make more money as CEO/managing-director instead of investor?

Because it sounds like it's more expensive to fund a company who will probably want as Simon said.. salary per person minimum 4.5k/month.. and then additional costs.
My plan I had before of being CEO/managing-director without knowing it... was to be the game designer and pay a programmer to join me and then outsource art.
I think I could get away paying a loooot less money as CEO/managing-director than paying a studio.

But I guess it also depends how much you have to invest too..
If you have millions then it probably is better as investor because its easier to invest in several studios then.

Also, how do i approach companies that i want to invest in?
I was thinking more about investing in a specific game... not their studio and all games they do.. because its very possible they might be doing more than just the game im interested in.
[/quote]

The minimum salary you can get away with in Sweden is lower, its the employers fee (an extra income tax basically, its just placed on the employers end and called a fee so that the majority of the sheep won't complain about having to pay over 60% income tax) that raise the costs of employing people so much. Paying someone a 20k SEK monthly salary effectivly costs the employer over 30k / month when you add in the 5 weeks paid vacation(Thats the minimum allowed by law), social security fees (~30% of the employees salary(Allthough it is a bit lower for employees under 26) that you have to pay) and insurances,

adding 50% to the salary is a reasonable estimate of the actual cost of having an employee in Sweden. (it can be a bit cheaper but not by much).

Starting your own business always gives you the most room for profit, (If you own everything all the profits are yours).

If you want to invest in a company or project just contact the owner of the company you wish to do business with and be professional, Everyone will sell you a share of their company, project, mother, whatever if you offer up enough money (ok, some people might be unwilling to sell their own mother, but in general you can buy pretty much anything you want if you got enough money, The hard part is finding the good deals, (Alot of startups tend to overvalue their own company or project and thus won't give you a good share for your money). Edited by SimonForsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
I'm sure I'm going to regret this but... Comapnies like EA, which are often pointed at for being very 'cold' have a lot more guidance than you seem to have.
There are a lot of ways your money could be an investment, so long as you don't get too involved with the decisions. You've proven to be disconnected from the industry, and that is never a good sign of success alone (let alone good working environment).
Hand over your money, I can make something good out of it, but don't expect me to hand you the control over what my team develops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Feign    117
[quote name='Orymus3' timestamp='1347322503' post='4978740']
Hand over your money, I can make something good out of it, but don't expect me to hand you the control over what my team develops.
[/quote]

This quote sums it up just about perfectly. You seem to just want to pay people to make you a game so you can rake in the profits (assuming there would be profits). I don't know how others feel, but that pretty much defeats the entire point of indie game development. I'd recommend investing in Google or Apple if you're looking for profits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
glhf    585
well ofcourse im investing to make money.
otherwise it would be called spending if i just wanted to make a game.

And ofcourse i want to be able to have final say in everything to make sure even more that the game will make a lot of money.. as much as it possibly can.
The devs are not as good choice to put the power of the final say in.. because for one.. they might milk me of my money by never finishing the game.. not working fast enough.. proloning release dates etc.
and secondly, they don't care as much as me about how much money the game makes because I'm paying them.. they don't get money from the profits the game makes.
So they might be focused more on making the game fun in their interest instead of making the game make more money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
[quote name='Cirqo' timestamp='1347325650' post='4978748']
This quote sums it up just about perfectly. You seem to just want to pay people to make you a game so you can rake in the profits (assuming there would be profits). I don't know how others feel, but that pretty much defeats the entire point of indie game development. I'd recommend investing in Google or Apple if you're looking for profits.
[/quote]
If this is aimed at me, I think you're missing the point here. I'm merely shielding my team from any dangerous fund-raiser with an agenda. I'm most definitely not in for the money myself (I got a day job for that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
glhf    585
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1347367797' post='4978877']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347358861' post='4978846']well ofcourse im investing to make money[/quote]Invest in something other than games. The returns are low and the risks are [i]extremely[/i] high.
[/quote]

I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347369714' post='4978880']
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.
[/quote]
Zeboyd does. Although Robert Boyd has a lot of ground experience and a much different attitude. Also, he started small, not by dangling his bucks around wanting to make a "hostile takeover" on a development team (read the definition for this before replying).

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347369714' post='4978880']
I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
[/quote]
Fun games sell. Production value just happens to sell more but does not necessarily lead to fun per se.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347369714' post='4978880']
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
[/quote]
An interesting statement. I trust you've conducted a survey of a representative sample before speaking?
I'm asking this because I network with a lot of serious indies who rely on their business to pay the bills... so I'm pretty sure they have a general attitude. Now, they may not be a representative sample (I don't know thousands of them) but you seem to have data to back your claims...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
[quote name='JTippetts' timestamp='1347384894' post='4978975']
I recommend you try for at least a little bit of humility. That's good life advice, as well.
[/quote]
The only way to learn and become better is to recognize the error of your ways. I would follow JT's advice here if I were you rather than systematically downpost everyone (to no avail might I add).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347369714' post='4978880']
I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.
[/quote]

On average returns are low and risks are high, most studios that aim for the AAA segment go bankrupt, the competition is extremely fierce and even successful games don't make a huge profit. the best ROI is pretty much on games like Minecraft (low budget titles that just happened to get insanely lucky), compared to other industries the game industry is very high risk. (There are plenty of examples of great games that didn't do well enough financially to keep their creators in business and even more examples of extremely expensive games that just plain sucked when they were done) (I don't want to think about how much money the people who invested in Duke Nukem Forever lost) Edited by SimonForsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
glhf    585
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1347435439' post='4979214']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1347369714' post='4978880']
I don't agree that returns are low.. it's just for studios like Orymus3 that returns are low because like he said himself.. he isnt making games for money... just for fun.
That's the general attitidue with most indys.
If you get a serious indy team together then I think you can make a lot of money.
[/quote]

On average returns are low and risks are high, most studios that aim for the AAA segment go bankrupt, the competition is extremely fierce and even successful games don't make a huge profit. the best ROI is pretty much on games like Minecraft (low budget titles that just happened to get insanely lucky), compared to other industries the game industry is very high risk. (There are plenty of examples of great games that didn't do well enough financially to keep their creators in business and even more examples of extremely expensive games that just plain sucked when they were done) (I don't want to think about how much money the people who invested in Duke Nukem Forever lost)
[/quote]

Yep, this is exactly what I'm talking about..
There's a lot of great games out there that don't make as much money as it could do..
They focused too much on making gameplay fun... without designing it so it can make more money.
You can't just think about making the game fun, you have to think about money as well.

Fun+Money has to go hand in hand.
Focusing on money doesn't have to have a negative impact on the fun either.. it's all about how you design it.

Cash Shops for example is something a lot more games should have.
Just really simple things will increase your revenue like a name change.
Or new avatar/character mesh/re-customize.. Things like this that isn't pay2win.

You can implement a cash shop to almost everything in a game.
Like maybe you want to let them send offline messages (mails) to each other.. you can let them unlock more inbox slots in the cash shop.
If there's a chat window in the lobby you can let them buy a unique color for their text.. or name.
And make sure you leave an option so that players can buy stuff for other players.

Pretty much everything in the game can be affected by the cash shop without making it pay2win.

You can even have a cash shop AND have a price tag on your game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
An interesting insight, although experience has recently taught us that the social game approach to monetization was infantile and that successful games from the last couple months were those with better gameplay and less emphasis on business model.
Likewise, what we thought was a good idea (casual market) turns out to be not as profitable as hardcore market.
(Edit: be aware that "we" and "us" are inclusive)

On a personal note, I only follow the metrics and facts here, because, personally, I'm really turned off by the Free2Play model in general (I prefer upfront payment and never being bothered again, although I'm ok with DLCs). Edited by Orymus3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orymus3    18821
[quote name='TechnoGoth' timestamp='1347464835' post='4979339']
Which leaves you with $4.05 out of every $10 you earn before you even start paying other costs.
[/quote]
Lovely example. And for references, there are fees to being on PSN and the likes as well. Also, if you want to sell digitally, you'll find that an ebay app or plugging into steam will also cut on the profit margin. There simply isn't much output unless you get the user base.

[quote name='TechnoGoth' timestamp='1347464835' post='4979339']
If you go down the CEO route you have a fundamental problem in that as you have said before you have 0 experience in the industry. You've never worked at a game studio, or been a manager of similar company. You are not going to be in a position to make decisions on best practices, technologies, or accurately gauge costs and time scales. So you'll need to either partner with someone who does a or hirer someone which will cost you a lot more the a normal developer.
[/quote]

I was lucky enough to see "both sides of the story" there. And it can really go both ways.
A CEO's more risky decision is to know how to surround himself with capable people. It is probably his most important skill, as, obviously, he can't be expected to rock at everything.
I've been at a place before, where the CEO was actually a very capable guy. You could tell from talking over with him, or seeing him do his job, that he knew what he was doing. The problem is that he couldn't do everything. He's started a lot of businesses, and the one recurring issue is that he kept hiring his "friends" to fill these spots because he felt comfortable around them. Sadly enough, these "friends" are not as capable as him.
I've also seen a CEO hiring a lot of people with experience and the right attitude and make them his VPs. Rather than to try to do everything, he's simply given the reins of these departments to them, and it has proven very successful as they were much more skilled than him in these fields.

In both cases however, these CEOs are not just there to tell them what to do, what they want, and be the "money-men". They both spend a tremendous amount of time at work, and I'm pretty sure they can't just turn off their brain when the day's over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this