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Sooker

Is XNA dying and MS forcing to C++?

124 posts in this topic

[quote name='Sooker' timestamp='1348157124' post='4982072']
[quote name='kazisami' timestamp='1348126895' post='4981952']
If C# is your choice as a language, then you can try Unity3D. Its free and its not going to die soon. If you have a good grasp of C#, then Unity can be a very powerful tool for making games and it also supports many platforms
[/quote]

I don´t want to start with Unity3D. I want to start with a 2D game. anything related to 3D is to far away from my actual goal and it would be overwhelming to start with Unity first.
[/quote]
You can actually make 2d games easily with Unity3d too (Battleheart on IOS/Android -- Look it Up).
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I think XNA is more a victim of politics than technology. It could have been updated to work with DX11 with relative ease if they put the resources behind it.

The problem was there was a civil war at Microsoft, between Steven Sinofsky and J Allard, and the Steven won. He was in charge of the money printing server division, then took over Windows and is credited with turning the turd ( Vista ) into a gem ( Win7 ), mostly unfairly if we are honest.

There were two competing and vastly different outlooks on the future of Microsoft, they went head to head, and Allard ( Xbox, Zune, WinPhone 7, Courier and yes XNA are his babies ) lost.

You could see the results of Sinofsky's victory almost instantly. Silverlight, dead. WinPhone 7 OS, gone and replaced by Win8 ( Sinofsky's baby ), Zune, dead. Courier, killed off and now XNA, dead. Obviously Xbox is too big to kill at this point.

That Windows 8 has "epic, putting Windows Vista to shame, flop!" written all over it, must have Allard smiling in anticipation. It was enough to make me dump my MSFT holdings. Edited by Serapth
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[quote name='zalzane' timestamp='1348162464' post='4982096']
Whether or not microsoft condones C#/XNA is irrelevant in the long run thanks to mono/monogame.
[/quote]
I personally think monogame is an excellent route forwards at this moment in time. Plus you have a huge number of platforms available: android, iOS, windows, mac, linux. Its easy to port straight between XNA and monogame and vice versa opening up WP7, xbox 360 and windows again. Then in beta you have PS Vita.

Across the desktop platforms theres no code change either assuming you are compiling to mono in the first place instead of .net. The blog in my signature has information on compiling straight to mono from visual studio, I can confirm the exectuables produced using that method on my desktop then run fine on my laptop's windows 7 partition (which is running .net 4, does not have mono installed at all) and on my linux mint partition.
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There are a number of things going on here.

Firstly, we're long overdue a new console generation. That's going to mean new hardware, new capabilities, and a new framework/API required to code to it.

Secondly, with both XNA and DX, MS are in a position where they have two frameworks to develop, document and support.

Thirdly, MS have been clearing out components from DX, pulling components from XNA into it, and generally acting as though they seem to have lost the plot in some cases (who knows - maybe they have?)

Now, look at the situation with DX versions. Vista brought DX10, Windows 7 brought DX11, Windows 8 only brought a minor version increment.

So pulling those together, adding some magic dust and speculation, my conclusion is that XNA and DX are heading for a merger, and that it's going to happen in (what would have been) the DX12 timeframe, and that timeframe is going to coincide with the new console generation.
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If you think of it, Monogame is becoming the successor of XNA for new tech (ANX is another option, too). Say that you concentrate only on Monogame abandoning XNA completely, the only platforms you lose are WP7 and Xbox360. The former is being replaced by Win8 and the XBLIG channel never succeeded. So with Monogame you've got XNA-like code that supports (and will support) Windows (including Win8 for ARM), WP8, NaCl, and many OpenGL-based platforms. Once Monogame imlements its own code for the content pipeline, you can say goodbye to XNA. The only doubt is related to the XBox720, but if it eventually allows C++ for indies then Monogame would also support this platform.

And for those who want a lower-level access to the DX APIs themselves with C#, you can use SharpDX. Edited by Ultrahead
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Sooker,

I really don't see MS as [i]forcing[/i] the issue onto C++. The C# support is quite strong and growing with Visual Studio, .NET Framework, object oriented contructs, and dynamic writing all being expanded right now. I feel that the real cause and effect is Microsoft keeping the synergy increasing with C# related products and services which is attracting more use of them everyday. Some things are going to fade in support, but they also know that third party things will make the exit of some of their techologies be a graceful one, while leaving the possibility of resurgence open like happened with DirectX years ago. Of course, they would love to see all categories of their products expand. You see, C# is a great language - really is - and more people are using it for that reason and the good support of it. I don't view it as a civil war or fued within MS, but rather the corporation meeting demand.

Well, given the state of things, I would suggest looking into Unity3D game engine and Axiom 3D render engine, both based on C#. I personally am looking into mono and monogame. I am almost decided in using mono with Axiom 3D (porting, .NET/Visual Studio Express).

I hope you work hard at it, stay with it, and get nice results! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]


Clinton
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After all the information from you guys i will definitely stay at C#. I will decide wich framework I will be using over the weekend.

[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1348199559' post='4982227']
I hope you work hard at it, stay with it, and get nice results!
[/quote]
I will do my best alongside school, job and girlfriend [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img] Edited by Sooker
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Has anyone developed a game using [b]monogame[/b]? It looks pretty darn cool. I own a mac and I was very interested in developing a game in XNA and learning c# in the process (I know c++ and Java, so I don't think there'll be a problem). I don't understand why they would deprecate XNA, a lot of awesome indie games have been developed with XNA.
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I ported a test game over to MonoGame that was developed using Visual Studio 2010/XNA. It worked flawlessly with 60 clear fps on a laptop (and this was running on mac). [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] Id have to say though the game wasn't made of much...
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[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1348164632' post='4982108']
The problem was there was a civil war at Microsoft, between Steven Sinofsky and J Allard, and the Steven won. He was in charge of the money printing server division, then took over Windows and is credited with turning the turd ( Vista ) into a gem ( Win7 ), mostly unfairly if we are honest.
[/quote]

it has to be said that the result of this was that MS managed to ship 2 OSes in a row able to outperform the older ones on the same hardware while still adding features, quite remarkable imo, even if we'll never know how much of this progress is actually due to the paradigm shift into native code or just a more strict company guidelines and control over performances of the codebase.
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[quote name='DavidGS' timestamp='1348224999' post='4982319']
Has anyone developed a game using monogame?
[/quote]
Bastion has been ported from being an xbox 360 XNA game to standalone windows, mac and linux versions as part of the humble bundle and also to NaCl which means it is playable withing google chrome. It is now available for iOS too running with monogame.

There are quite a few other iOS and android apps made with it. Also heard a rumor about a Terraria monogame port.
[quote name='kunos' timestamp='1348246955' post='4982430']
MS managed to ship 2 OSes in a row able to outperform the older ones on the same hardware while still adding features
[/quote]
I beg to differ. Vista does get too much rep for being awful but it was definately MUCH slower than XP on the same hardware.
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[quote name='DavidGS' timestamp='1348224999' post='4982319']
Has anyone developed a game using monogame?
[/quote]

Visit the Monogame page to find a list of games: http://monogame.codeplex.com/
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As far as I can tell, the XNA team at MS is skeletal [i]at best[/i]. All of the visible major devs have moved on to other projects and there's no evidence that the current work is anything but minor maintenance (get it running on WP8 type stuff). As far as I'm concerned, that leaves XNA firmly in the "gasping for breath" column. MS appears to believe that there is simply no value in developing an API for .NET and DX to interact properly. It's slightly amusing to think that it might be my fault. EIther way, SlimDX/SharpDX should do very well for most, depending on the exact tech requirements.
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So we are getting XNA on WP8....?

LOL. The removal of Managed DX brought the rise of SlimDX which brought the demise of XNA .... which was born from the ashes of Managed DX. Funny how the software world works. Edited by Alpha_ProgDes
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[quote name='Promit' timestamp='1348260011' post='4982493']
As far as I can tell, the XNA team at MS is skeletal [i]at best[/i]. All of the visible major devs have moved on to other projects and there's no evidence that the current work is anything but minor maintenance (get it running on WP8 type stuff). As far as I'm concerned, that leaves XNA firmly in the "gasping for breath" column. MS appears to believe that there is simply no value in developing an API for .NET and DX to interact properly. It's slightly amusing to think that it might be my fault. EIther way, SlimDX/SharpDX should do very well for most, depending on the exact tech requirements.
[/quote]

Why your fault?
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I will reply with what I know. As many of you may or may not be aware Visual Studio 2012 does not currently support Windows Phone 7. VS2010 is still required. XNA is tied to Windows Phone 7, I can't say for 8. But they do understand there is a large difference between developing in C# and in C++.

But I can say MS is moving more inoto DirectX, since XNA uses DirectX 9, and though Windows 8 desktop will support it, the WinRT will not support it as in not run it. This is due to the architecture of WinRT. SharpDX provides that link for C# developers to use their XNA skills but isnt an MS framework. Managed DirectX did become XNA (XNA was part of the set of .NET assemblies on the 360 including the Compact Framework).

I have attached the model it might help explain it. Sorry i didn't get all of the right hand side but that looks at no WinRT applications.
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[quote name='6677' timestamp='1348253153' post='4982459']
I beg to differ. Vista does get too much rep for being awful but it was definately MUCH slower than XP on the same hardware.
[/quote]

true... I was talking about Win7 and Win8 ;)
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Why is it so hard for microsoft to update the XNA framework to directX 11?.

Does anyone think xbox 720 will have a framework just like XNA to go along with it? Edited by Xanather
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[quote name='Xanather' timestamp='1348328951' post='4982676']
Why is it so hard for microsoft to update the XNA framework to directX 11?.
[/quote]
Almost all of the existing codebase would need changing. Certainly a large portion of it.

[quote name='Xanather' timestamp='1348328951' post='4982676']
Does anyone think xbox 720 will have a framework just like XNA to go along with it?
[/quote]
I personally think so.
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Microsoft killing off XNA...Wow, My friend would certainly be dissapointed. He's a massive C# / XNA / Windows fan and I've tried to get him to learn C++ / SFML / Linux but failed. Also, analyzing what Microsoft do seems fun, why isn't there a whole forum doing it already?
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[quote name='TheVirtualDragon' timestamp='1348348396' post='4982731']
He's a massive C# / XNA / Windows
[/quote]
Well now he can be a massive C# / Monogame / Windows fan instead. And there is no official statement on microsoft killing XNA. With .net 4.5, win metro and sooner or later a next gen xbox they might kill it off or they might just revamp it.
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