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Master or "Diplom" ?

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Hi Dev´s,
I´m from germany and in 2013 i will start studying IT at the university.
But here in germany we can choose between the old "Diplom"-System or the new Bachelor-Master-System.
I hear a lot of bad stuff about Bachelor-Master, but even the actual students don´t know what will be better.

They think that the Diplom will be not as good as the Master at the international level. But the new Bachlor-Master System is to new and not mature enough.

Does anyone even know what a Diplom is. How does it stand at the international level?
What would you prefer (Master-Diplom)?

What would be the best choice if i want to be flexible in terms of country and specialization?

-Sooker

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Bachelor of Science takes 3years, Master of Science take additional 2years after the bachelor degree and diplom takes 5 years.

So you mean that it´s not really a big difference as long I study for 4 years?

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Im in Switzerland but I can still comment on some of the critique points of the Bachelor/Master thing. The problem with the bologna system is that it mostly fails at what it was designed to do and disrupts things that worked before. One of the central concepts for example is that the ECTS points should be transferrable and uniform across universities... but they aren't. If you go for a semester/year to study at a foreign university you still have to run all the stuff by your own administration and your university might "rate" the lectures you do there differently than the university you take them at does etc.. How much something is "worth" in terms of points might even be inconsistent within a university. We for example had the case that there was a "Numerics of Partial Differential Equations" lecture that was given for CSE students at the beginning and got you 10 points (which was still low given the amount of work you had to invest). Then this lecture also was added as a possibility to the CS curriculum. But because apparently 10 points would give CS students "too many points compared to their other lectures" they reduced it to 7 points, even though its still the exact same lecture and just as much work.
Then something especially the lecturers complain about is that the system requires some standards in regards to how and what can be used to asses performance. As a result some courses/lectures that worked before without an exam for example (typically this was the stuff you took out of interest an not because it was required) had to be changed and as a result got less popular/were dropped entierly.
This actually goes along with another concern which is that the point system encourages people to select lectures depending on point/work efficiency instead of interest.

But I also have to say that typically its not such a big deal in your day to day studying [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] its still your responsibility to not fall into the trap of chosing lectures by points and figuring out your semester at a foreign university (which usually does work out). I also never heard that someone with a Masters is valued lower than someone with some other form of Diploma (in Switzerland we don't even have that option anymore).

What I was wondering myself though is how this all aligns with the US university system. You often hear, especially from games industry people, stuff like that they don't care about Masters degrees and there is also this "4-year degree" thing people keep talking about that flat out doesn't seem to exist over here (in some european countries). It's pretty much a given here that you get a masters degree. Leaving university after getting a bachelor degree in three years is fairly exotic as far as i can tell (with the possible exception of "Fachhochschulen"). Your goal is pretty much to get a masters degree and the bachelors is just an intermediate step. In the old system the equivalent of that was not really regarded as a degree on its own i think. Edited by japro

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[quote name='Sooker' timestamp='1349250289' post='4986314']
Bachelor of Science takes 3years, Master of Science take additional 2years after the bachelor degree and diplom takes 5 years.
[/quote]
[quote name='japro' timestamp='1349258917' post='4986336']
this "4-year degree" thing people keep talking about that flat out doesn't seem to exist over here (in some european countries). It's pretty much a given here that you get a masters degree.
[/quote]

Had not heard that. Interesting. Given that 4 years is not an option, 5 years is preferable over 3.

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[quote name='japro' timestamp='1349258917' post='4986336']
in Switzerland we don't even have that option anymore
[/quote]

Just Saxony, 1 of 16 "Bundesländer" in germany provides the opportunity of getting a diplom.
Students prefer it, but i wondered how it is rated international.

But after hearing that even Master is not that common in the USA, it seems like it doesn´t matter what i will choose.

[quote name='japro' timestamp='1349258917' post='4986336']
Leaving university after getting a bachelor degree in three years is fairly exotic...
[/quote]
I heard that it is hard to get into the Master, because of a limited number of participants?

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[quote name='Sooker' timestamp='1349274193' post='4986389']
[quote name='japro' timestamp='1349258917' post='4986336']
Leaving university after getting a bachelor degree in three years is fairly exotic...
[/quote]
I heard that it is hard to get into the Master, because of a limited number of participants?
[/quote]
Uh, i guess that is different then. Only specific studies have limitations over here (medicine being the only I know about).

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[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1349273123' post='4986382']
Had not heard that. Interesting. Given that 4 years is not an option, 5 years is preferable over 3.
[/quote]
I think Media-informatics take 4 years

[quote name='japro' timestamp='1349274384' post='4986390']
Uh, i guess that is different then. Only specific studies have limitations over here (medicine being the only I know about).
[/quote]
I think the Bachlor is getting the common degree, because it´s not easy to even get into the Master. a Diplom would be better, because i know that I will have my 5years.

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I didn't even know universities even use that kind of system anymore. Most of the jobs nowadays require that you have a degree with Bologna system. I found an article about the system that is used in German universities http://www.mawista.com/en/study-in-germany/german-education-system/ so I'm based on that, it clearly states the system and degrees. I guess you could ever go wrong with this system. The Diplom would only work for some inner companies and not all of them, it's hard to convince someone in another country what a Diplom is. That's my opinion though.

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[quote name='Sooker' timestamp='1349275390' post='4986398']
I think the Bachlor is getting the common degree, because it´s not easy to even get into the Master. a Diplom would be better, because i know that I will have my 5years.
[/quote]
I'm studying in the Bachelor/Master system because Hesse (where I live) got rid of Diplom years ago, but don't you still have to do your Vordiplom before finishing your Diplom? I thought you had to reapply for your Diplom like you do for your Masters.

That being said, like someone said before, it really doesn't matter. If you're worried about transferring later on, then the Master's program might open up more options, it might not. That really differs from university to university because in some places the transition from one system to the other has gone well, and in others... not quite so well, so it's impossible to say what's universally better. You'd probably be best off talking to the Fachbereich of the university and getting their opinions, they'll be able to give you information a lot better than we can.

EDIT: @DonaMartz, I don't know much about companies outside of the games industry, but they could never say that a job can ONLY be filled by someone with a degree from the Masters system, because that would exclude everybody who studied before that. Within the games industry, from what I've seen, they usually say "Bachelor/Masters in computer science or equivalent training", so if you say "I studied computer science for five years in Germany, here is my German diploma", everybody should understand. Germany isn't some exotic country that has no reputation within computer science (or the technology in general). Edited by Lateralis

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