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VladTC

So, i know nothin but want to make games in the future

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VladTC    159
What should i start learning ? What languages and which paths should i choose. I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.

Now, i'm not talking about making Audio and images/models/sprites, even though i will probably learn that later or will get some friends / random people to help, what i am talking about now is just programming, Making the core of the game.

I guess this is also basically "what language should i pick to code games" question

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Sooker    299
This should answer your question: www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2011/08/04/I-want-to-be-a-game-developer.aspx

I personally use C# with SharpDX, because I´m not sure about the future of XNA.
But you could use Unity3D with C#: [url="http://unity3d.com/"]http://unity3d.com/[/url]

C++ has Ogre3D, Allegro, SFML, ... as far as i know

If you know your language, you should start writing 2D games like Pong, Space Invaders, ...
Don´t rush to 3D and don´t think about programming a (m)morpg. This are some hard tasks wich need experience.

Know your goal, and get to it. Edited by Sooker

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VladTC    159
Thanks ! I don't think i'd go for Unity, that thing is kinda over-used and.. well its not /that/ good from my point of view.
I started learning C++ a while ago and dropped it since i didn't have time / motivation, but i can start doing it again ! Is there anything specific with it ?
And obviously i wouldn't rush 3D, that looks waaaaaay complicated for me, especially now. Maybe someday

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Sooker    299
I recommend that you read [url="http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2011/08/04/I-want-to-be-a-game-developer.aspx"]this[/url] and your questions where to go should be answered. If you know C++ then learning another language shouldn´t be that hard.
The important thing is to master your language. Edited by Sooker

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Bluefirehawk    1232
[quote name='VladTC' timestamp='1349280803' post='4986438']
I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.
[/quote]
You are new to programming? If so, I suggest to not use C++. I fear you may underestimate the complexety of C++.

I recently blogged about C++ and the toolchains available for it:
[quote]...That's why you shouldn't use C++ for your first big project. You spend so much time figuring out how everything else besides the coding works, how you install tool XY, how do you link correctly, how the HELL do you set up a good cross plattform build environment??...[/quote]

Like others have suggested, start learning C#, java, Python or whatever. C++ is a beast to tackle. With C++, everything takes a bit more time, effort and knowledge. You see results faster with anything else than C++.

If you want to get professional with your programming, I also suggest you get some books about Design Patterns, Algorithms, Datastructures and maybe some discrete mathematics as well. Then you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and you can even find a job as a programmer.

But whatever you do, have fun with it. You are making games, there is probably no other field, where you can see your dreams get reality.

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VladTC    159
Thanks for your responses !


[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1349290654' post='4986492']
[quote name='VladTC' timestamp='1349280803' post='4986438']
I heard C++ is very good and i tried my hand at it a while ago, i think i was getting into it fairly easily.
[/quote]
You are new to programming? If so, I suggest to not use C++. I fear you may underestimate the complexety of C++.

I recently blogged about C++ and the toolchains available for it:
[quote]...That's why you shouldn't use C++ for your first big project. You spend so much time figuring out how everything else besides the coding works, how you install tool XY, how do you link correctly, how the HELL do you set up a good cross plattform build environment??...[/quote]

Like others have suggested, start learning C#, java, Python or whatever. C++ is a beast to tackle. With C++, everything takes a bit more time, effort and knowledge. You see results faster with anything else than C++.

If you want to get professional with your programming, I also suggest you get some books about Design Patterns, Algorithms, Datastructures and maybe some discrete mathematics as well. Then you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and you can even find a job as a programmer.

But whatever you do, have fun with it. You are making games, there is probably no other field, where you can see your dreams get reality.
[/quote]

Yeah I am a beginner, but i see myself as a quick an smart learner. Though if C++ is really "delving right into advanced-only territory", i guess i could start with C# And maybe then move to C++ or something ? I dunno :o

Is it really possible to find a job as a programmer without finishing your Uni or whatever ? I don't think so..

Thanks for your answer too, @3Ddreamer !

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VladTC    159
Well, it does seem that C++ Gets better performance while C# is easier to code, according to this: http://code4k.blogspot.de/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html

Thoughts ?

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Haps    1331
[quote name='VladTC' timestamp='1349299001' post='4986545']
Yeah I am a beginner, but i see myself as a quick an smart learner.[/quote]

Everything looks easy until you try it.

That's not to say you can't try - Just know that it's probably more challenging than you're giving it credit for. How you deal with that challenge is up to you and your abilities.

[quote]Is it really possible to find a job as a programmer without finishing your Uni or whatever ?[/quote]

Possible? Sure. Likely? Well, that depends on what you're bringing to the table. Having a degree is no guarantee, but lacking one doesn't help.

Experience is probably the most valuable thing to a programmer, so having some successful projects on your own can be just as important as someone who puts in the bare minimum to graduate. That said, Education is still right alongside it, and makes landing that first (or second, third, fourth and fifth,) job easier. The biggest benefit to a formal education is that it's standardized, so your employer knows you've got a certain level of knowledge.

For an entry level position, it's usually the education that gets them to look at your resume. It'll be your accomplishments and potential that get them to consider you.

[quote]Well, it does seem that C++ Gets better performance while C# is easier to code,[/quote]

Is it important to you right now that you get better performance on computers that will far exceed what you're capable of programming? Edited by Haps

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BentmGamer    88
Learn java or c (almost any sort) as first languages, then maybe dive into something else later on like lua. But at first java and c are best, and u can use c with unity too, If you have other members in a team.

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Sooker    299
Yes there is a performance gap, but as a beginner, you will not reach a point where the performance is too bad. it also depends on the api.
As you see on your graph, SharpDX isn´t far behind.

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VladTC    159
Yup, that's why i'm thinking on starting with C# and moving on to C++ Later on when needed :3

Though now as i read about SharpDX, it has no documentation and.. i guess it would be hard to understand and use ? Maybe i'd start with SlimDX first, i dunno. Edited by VladTC

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Sooker    299
SharpDX should be no problem, you got enough Demos and you can easily adapt C++ tutorials.
Its not that hard as you might think if you understand C# well.

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Haps    1331
XNA is a viable alternative to SharpDX for you, as it has a wealth of supported documentation. Sooker does has some valid reasons for preferring SharpDX, though. There are some questions about XNA's future, but I personally wouldn't bet on it dying out completely. Even in a worst case scenario, it'll be quite a long time before it's inadequate or unusable and the open source Mono may keep the fires burning longer.

You don't have to go with either, but feel free to look at both and see which you take to. The framework that you find easier to learn from probably benefits you the most. Edited by Haps

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Sooker    299
SharpDX wil provide a high level api soon. It´s under heavy development as you can read on the SharpDX site. it should be released this year.
SHarpDX also features Win8 Metro and DX11. This are my reasons for choosing SharpDX.

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VladTC    159
what are low level and high level API's, by the way ? amd i don't really care about Win8, not planning on giving that any attention whatsoever ^^

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Haps    1331
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-level_programming_language"]Low-level programming language[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_programming_language"]High-level programming language[/url]

Try these Wiki articles to give you with the general concept, although these refer mainly to the difference in languages. Edited by Haps

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3Ddreamer    3826
Low level API examples are OpenGL, Java, and DirectX (Direct3D). High level ones like Java 3D, Ogre, Irrlicht Engine, Axiom 3D Render Engine, Blender, and jMonkey Engine. It is possible to use both low level and high level API in developing a game.

Most games made by intermediate game developers will have the programming matter more than the language used. The C++ AAA games are created by a [i]team[/i], typically, which can utilize the full features of that language. It often takes years to make an AAA game, let alone learn the language added to that.

Most games don't even need the extra features of C++ advanced programming in the bigger picture of things. Most of the games no matter what language if programmed well will not come close to the performance limit of the hardware and should not in any case.

If you really want to learn C++, then do it, but we let you know what you are facing. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

As for the link to the benchmark of C++ and C#, many things are not mentioned here, such as optimizations, NGen beyond that example, compressions, filters, buffers, wrappers, frameworks, and
just pure need: (Edit: Fixed!)
[url="http://code4k.blogspot.de/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html#!/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html"]http://code4k.blogspot.de/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html#!/2011/03/benchmarking-cnet-direct3d-11-apis-vs.html[/url]
It does not include the [i]human[/i] factor. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img]

Clinton Edited by 3Ddreamer

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VladTC    159
Ah i see, thanks for the answers ^^ And i just checked through the classfields on the website and everyone that's looking for a programmer is always demanding knowledge of C++..

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Bluefirehawk    1232
[quote name='VladTC' timestamp='1349350582' post='4986726']
Ah i see, thanks for the answers ^^ And i just checked through the classfields on the website and everyone that's looking for a programmer is always demanding knowledge of C++..
[/quote]
Yes, when you look at game jobs. In the Business/GUI world, C#/Java are probably the two most dominant languages (my guess).
What you'll learn in C# is still true in C++. When you know your way around in C#, you are ready for the beast.

With C#, you don't have a gun pointing at your head all the time, you have a compiler that really tries to help you. You have many tools in C++ that help you to shoot yourself if you are not careful.
C++ is one of the best languages, but absolutely does not forgive beginner mistakes. It is still very punishing to for an intermediate level. Like I've written before, everything takes more time, effort and knowledge in C++.

You don't buy a 2300cc Triumph rocket roadstar, or a Suzuki Hayabusa as your first motorcycle. Both are magnificent in experienced hands. But they kill beginners. Edited by Bluefirehawk

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VladTC    159
I see.. So basically i should start off with C# But then definetly move over to C++ ? And i was talking about the game developing market :D

Also what i also hear is that C++ is getting outdated with its tools and C# Its more up to date. Is it true ? If so, why do companies still use C++ ?

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3Ddreamer    3826
[quote name='VladTC' timestamp='1349353675' post='4986739']
I see.. So basically i should start off with C# But then definetly move over to C++ ? And i was talking about the game developing market [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

Also what i also hear is that C++ is getting outdated with its tools and C# Its more up to date. Is it true ? If so, why do companies still use C++ ?
[/quote]

What is happening is that C# was founded by a team which took the features that they liked best from C, C++, and Java, while elliminating or modifying the way some are implemented to their liking. Now keep that in mind. Fundamentally, C# is based on similar programming concepts as C++ and some other major languages. Once you take a close look at C# and C++, then you will be amazed and delighted at how similar they are. The C# is like a younger brother or sister of C++. None of the most common languages are outdated! None of them will be for a long time. Even Java and C are used in many applications, including games. None of these major languages is neglected or dying! They are all actually being improved directly or through extensions. Hopefully this puts your mind at rest on any of these languages. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

The main reason why so much game programming is being done now in C++ is because many veteran programmers started on it before C# was even created. They are the "baby boomers" of the gaming world. The next baby boom involving C# will come in due time once they grow to maturity in their careers, too.

Now as for C#, it is being improved in dynamic writing, object oriented script, and so forth - the way object oriented languages in the forefront are. The C# is evolving and could very feasibly go from being a second consideration for AAA game development to the number one spot - no one knows at this point, but it looks good. As a matter of fact, there has been a lot of commercially sold games based on C# and perhaps another language used with it in recent years, though C++ reputation is on top right now.

Other good language choices for beginners are Java, Python, and a few others, so please take a second look at them, too, as some AAA games have been made using them in recent years.

The crucial thing is that programmers keep any language in demand and competitive based on their skill and effective results. That is why we see many languages being used or combined in creating games. Added to that, the wide variety of game types and artist works in them make it even more obscure about which language is the best overall. There really is no best overall language because of this variety of needs in game development.

Creating a game engine is generally far more work and complicated than merely creating a game! People have spent years to make a single AAA quality game sometimes and much more to create a game engine. I know someone who has been working on his game engine for about 15 years and is only now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel toward releasing his game. He is an expert C++ programmer, 2D, and 3D artist. Its an extreme example and most developers will have their system done much sooner, but this gives you an idea about that mountain which you want to climb.

I would recommend that you choose a language which is easiest for you to learn, has a system in place called a game engine, and is surrounded by a supportive community. For almost all beginners, trying to leave the beaten path will likely only result in getting lost in the jungle. Someday you may become a trail blazer, but until then we suggest taking the well proven course through novice and intermediate growth already established. You will save years of time, get better results, and enjoy it much more.[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

Clinton Edited by 3Ddreamer

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