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L. Spiro

How Much do You Plan to Support Windows 8/Metro?

84 posts in this topic

[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351491801' post='4994957']
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.
[/quote]
I get the feeling I am the only one who actually read every word of all of the press releases on this subject.
You should have [i]at least[/i] read the link that I handed to you on a silver platter.
Once again:
[url="http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/the_next_twenty_years_what_.php?page=2"]http://gamasutra.com...hat_.php?page=2[/url]
[quote]However, it is clear from Microsoft's publications on Windows 8 that in order to participate in the new user interface, you must distribute your application through the Windows Store. That means as of October, Microsoft itself will become the sole source of software for everything you run on a Windows machine that isn't relegated to the older desktop ecosystem.[/quote]
It was clarified below by Rodalpho Carmichael:
[quote name='Rodalpho Carmichael']Yes, we do know that the Windows 8 store will not allow Steam to work as a storefront, since you can't sideload "windows store" type applications. Steam will be allowed in a form similar to its iOS incarnation, with chat, friends lists, etc. But that's not the real deal.[/quote]
Then further clarified by the author of the article:
[quote name='Casey Muratori']That said, the certification requirements _clearly_ prohibit Steam, since one of the requiements[sic] is that you may not download any executable content. So Microsoft would have to make a special exception for Steam. Whether they will or not, or whether Valve will even attempt to go that route given the inherent risk in doing a Metro version only to have it exist solely at the whim of Microsoft, is anyone's guess.[/quote]
Here he said Steam is prohibited but he was actually talking about just the storefront part of it.

So, what was that bit you said about knowing about what I am talking?

[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1351492377' post='4994959']
Now this may sound crazy. It probably is. But I figured that Steam would be an app you downloaded from the Windows Store. And from that Steam app, you purchased your games. A bit of a circumvention, if you will.
[/quote]
The above explains it. Circumvention is not allowed except by clearly defined side-loading.
See Appendix B of that article for what constitutes side-loading.

[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1351492377' post='4994959']
However, I can't imagine Microsoft going the way of the slippery-slope and allowing only "Kid-friendly" games and apps.
[/quote]
I don’t think they were intending to be that harsh.
But the original Mortal Kombat game from 1992 is banned from the store ([s]even after the revisions[/s]).
What do you think are the chances that they never ban any game you want to play in the future?


I guess the main point so far is that everything you get on your Metro machine will be obtained from the Windows Store and nowhere else.
You won’t be getting anything off Steam or Origin.
Everything you run on your machine will have gone through Microsoft’s application process.
Hence it could at best be a secondary machine in my life. And most people who know about the above seem to agree.


L. Spiro Edited by L. Spiro
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[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']I get the feeling I am the only one who actually read every word of all of the press releases on this subject.[/quote]

That is not a press release.

That is a very long winded opinion piece by a software developer that runs a website/forum called mollyrocket.com.

You can sum it all up in one sentence... "Be afraid today of what Microsoft might do in a few years". Reading it was a waste of time.

[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']everything you get on your Metro machine will be obtained from the Windows Store and nowhere else.[/quote]

That cannot be said because it has not happened.

I could say that tomorrow Apple will patent the idea of making "software for entertainment" and legally force all developers to stop making games for all platforms but theirs. Apple has been very litigious with patents... and Apple does have a store where they control what can and cannot be sold... but *STILL* I could not in my right mind say that would be something to be afraid of.

- Tom Edited by pingz
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It has been established that the article you referenced is out of date. You are also confusing two aspects of Windows 8. There is Windows RT, which is designed to run on ARM devices, primarily phones and tablets. This is not designed to be anyone's primary device! Some tablets, and laptops / desktops running x86 hardware will have full desktop access and not everything will have to go through the store or certification process. Why isn't everyone up in arms that you cannot install steam games on iOS or Android? This is the exact same thing except for the fact that Microsoft also has support for the "mobile" (metro / modern) apps to run on desktop machines. That means you can pretty much write it once (depending on the features you leverage), and run it on the phones, the tablets and the desktop. However to paranoid fanboys, Microsoft is just a large company which must be doing evil stuff, so clearly they are going to act [i]against their best interest[/i] just to inconvenience people.

It's probably worth noting that I've been running Windows 8 on my Macbook Pro for months, both in bootcamp and in Parallels. I have not purchased a single application through the store yet. I can run everything on Windows 8 that I can on Windows 7, and for the most part it runs better. Edited by tstrimple
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[b]MS beancounters[/b] : The shareholders are getting jittery. We aren't doing as well as we used to. Users are migrating to other platforms like android etc. Users are using other free software and depriving us of our income stream.

[b]MS beancounters[/b] : ([i]notice how well apple, steam etc are doing out of their walled garden approach to selling software, while taking a 30% tax[/i]) Why aren't we doing that? Why didn't we think of that???

[b]Microsoft devs[/b] : Well, we could I suppose

[b]MS devs[/b] : But we'd have to force people to use it, as developers won't like the idea of paying our tax. And users won't want to pay 30% extra for software. We need to leave people in a position where THEY HAVE NO CHOICE but to pay us everytime they want software.

[b]MS devs[/b] : hang on a minute, this would be a great time for us to REVOLUTIONIZE the API and get rid of the old one, while forcing people using the new one to pay us our TAXES in order to operate!!

[i]*pause*[/i] .. But what about the people who want to use enterprise software, rather than play angry birds?

[b]MS management[/b] : Ah we'll just say that we'll run a backward compatible desktop mode, so everyone will be able to run their old apps etc. This will fool them all into installing it, then once we have the market share, we can quietly remove the desktop mode in a couple of years without their permission, you know! the way we always do!!

[b]MS beancounters[/b] : YES YES YES!!!

[b]MS management[/b] : And let's slant the whole new system towards tablets and mobile, because that's a huge market that we haven't been able to tap yet. Look at all that money we are missing out on!

[b]management[/b] : And the LOOSERS on desktops won't care, they eat up anything we give to them anyway, F*** them!!

[i](haha mumbled laughter)[/i]
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[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']
I don’t think they were intending to be that harsh.
But the original Mortal Kombat game from 1992 is banned from the store (even after the revisions).
What do you think are the chances that they never ban any game you want to play in the future?
[/quote]
If the original MK (and all its variations) are banned, then I guess that means all the subsequent MK games are banned as well? Which would be strange given that the latest MK is available on Xbox and Halo is rated M is it not? I'll wait until 2013 to see how all of this shakes out. I think MS's attempt to be like Apple is not gonna be as successful as they hoped and they will have to go back and change some of the rules. IE. be far more flexible.
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From a consumer perspective I won't buy Windows 8. But that's never been a problem, Microsoft always had some odd Windows-versions that only people that didn't care buy (or did get with the hardware they where buying).

For example the versions I used were:
3.11, 95, 98SE, XP (x86 + x64), 7 (x86 + x64)

And of course school and work related:
98, NT, 2000, Server 2003, 2008, Vista

Well I couldn't influence what I had to use at work. The server versions are great.
Only Vista really bothered me.

Of course there is always some change. For example I really hated the default style that came with XP (childish blue and green). But it's almost always possible to customize it for your needs. - The Windows 8 GUI looks like a childs toy, again...

Anyway, this seems like one of the versions you better skip as a customer.

From a developer perspective, well it depends, I haven't really tried it out. Of course as long as Windows 7 is so popular I won't use features that stop my software being backward compatible.

I'm not a fan of the whole AppStore concept. No matter who is offering it. I don't use Apple's (or any other of Apple's overpriced product), Steam or similar software.

Well if you're already using OpenGL, it shouldn't be a huge problem to port your game to another platform.

The only thing that is stopping me from using another operating system is the lack of good drivers/the hassle of installing them. If AMD would provide propper drivers for *BSD I would problably have switched. Most of the other software I use could be run in a virtualized environment. If it weren't for games.
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[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1351501011' post='4994984']
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']
I don’t think they were intending to be that harsh.
But the original Mortal Kombat game from 1992 is banned from the store (even after the revisions).
What do you think are the chances that they never ban any game you want to play in the future?
[/quote]
If the original MK (and all its variations) are banned, then I guess that means all the subsequent MK games are banned as well? Which would be strange given that the latest MK is available on Xbox and Halo is rated M is it not? I'll wait until 2013 to see how all of this shakes out. I think MS's attempt to be like Apple is not gonna be as successful as they hoped and they will have to go back and change some of the rules. IE. be far more flexible.
[/quote]

If you read more current articles, you'll notice that the change won't go into effect until December. This article gives a pretty good summary and covers a number of important points some people like to ignore.

[url="http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/windows-8-marketplace-will-sell-18-rated-games-after-all-not-just-yet-valve-can-keep-being-valve"]http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/windows-8-marketplace-will-sell-18-rated-games-after-all-not-just-yet-valve-can-keep-being-valve[/url]

[quote]
The change will come into effect this year, Windows Corporate VP of of Web Services Antoine Leblond told Gizmodo, but not before December. Yesterday’s announcement was made to “give developers a heads up that that's where we're going, so they can have the peace of mind around developing the kinds of games that will have those ratings."
[/quote]

[quote]
Leblond was keen to point out that 18-rated games will be available via other digital distributors on Windows in the meantime - namely Steam and Origin.
"We want the world of desktop apps to to keep existing [outside of the Windows Store]. There's no reason to get in the way of that.
“Valve can keep being Valve," he added.
[/quote]

[quote]
Perhaps ocean-crossed confusion was at the root of this whole silly affair. It seems Microsoft have mistaken PEGI’s commonly-used 18 rating as equivalent to their own - the rarely used ‘Adults Only’ label - rather than the 17-and-up ‘Mature’ made so familiar by US trailers. In fact, the A rating has only been pinned to 23 games in the history of the ESRB, and doomed most of those titles to commercial disaster.
[/quote]
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[quote name='shadowomf' timestamp='1351501595' post='4994986']
Anyway, this seems like one of the versions you better skip as a customer.[/quote]

Care to back that statement up? I personally believe that going to the start screen by default for x86 machines is a mistake, but it's quite easy to get past. Apart from some of the ui quirks, it's a much better operating system than Windows 7 overall.
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[quote]Anyway, this seems like one of the versions you better skip as a customer.[/quote]What sells me is Windows To Go. If I can run Windows off a USB stick as I can with Linux and PC-BSD, that's great. I feel like that won't be enough for some really important tasks, but that's one feature that grabs me.

[quote]I'm not a fan of the whole AppStore concept. No matter who is offering it. I don't use Apple's (or any other of Apple's overpriced product), Steam or similar software.[/quote]Thing is, you have this on *nix too. I use apt-get/"Software Center" on Ubuntu. FreeBSD has ports. What's the difference between Ubuntu's Software Center and an app store? One is the other; you can buy Braid on Ubuntu Software Center, and you can buy Braid on Windows Store (I'm guessing).

And that's just an organized way to install software, so I usually prefer it. Edited by Heath
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What magic is this? Steam running on Windows 8? Some Linux / Apple fanboys who have never used Windows 8 told me this is impossible! It's also worth noting that Counter Strike: Global Offensive is rated M under ESRB and 18 under PEGI, yet it is installed and plays just fine via Steam. Any more FUD?

[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13579584/win8.JPG[/img]
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[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']
I guess the main point so far is that everything you get on your Metro
[/quote]
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']
I guess the main point so far is that everything you get on your [size=5]Metro[/size]
[/quote]
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351498335' post='4994975']
I guess the main point so far is that everything you get on your [size=6]Metro[/size]
[/quote]


Anything else cocky to add?

Also, who is a “fanboy” here?
I hate Linux and Apple even more than I do Microsoft.


L. Spiro Edited by L. Spiro
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[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351503319' post='4994996']
What magic is this? Steam running on Windows 8? Some Linux / Apple fanboys who have never used Windows 8 told me this is impossible! It's also worth noting that Counter Strike: Global Offensive is rated M under ESRB and 18 under PEGI, yet it is installed and plays just fine via Steam. Any more FUD?

[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13579584/win8.JPG[/img]
[/quote]Hax!
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[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351470059' post='4994877']
One of the authors of SlimDX said he was not interested in adding support for it to SlimDX, and Valve is obviously going out of their way to make a point that they are not going to support it either. Minecraft won’t, and I am not decided on my own engine.
MJP has never even tried to use DirectX 11.1 yet.[/quote]There are several separate issues here: Windows 8, Metro, latest version of DirectX and so on.

Windows 8 (non-RT) will still run all existing Windows applications, and I imagine therefore most people would be supporting Windows 8, even if this doesn't mean any new APIs.

I hardly see why it's doom and gloom for MS because not every immediately jumps onto the latest version of DirectX - for all sorts of reasons, it takes time to move engines across. Also not all software is necessarily best suited to the full-screen Metro UI.

For myself: I'll be happily writing for and supporting Windows x86. I won't be doing anything Metro as I'm not interested in that yet and don't have the time - for GUIs, I primarily use Qt anyway. I'm still using DirectX 9 - not out of any protest or boycotting, but because I haven't had time to learn and write for newer versions.

[quote]How many of you are starting to consider moving away from Windows in favor of Macintosh OS X or Linux?
Do you think Microsoft will be able to continue going this route or will they be forced to either downsize considerably or lift their ridiculous policies? Do you plan to push them into such a situation by, for example boycotting any of their products?[/quote]I don't know what ridiculous policies you mean.

I do have concerns with the Windows RT model where software can only be distributed by their site. But that doesn't stop me writing x86 Windows software as before. It would also be ludicrous to boycott MS by switching to a company that has far more ridiculous policies as far as trying to lock down open computing is concerned. I already write cross-platform for Linux, but it would be silly to drop Windows.

[quote]And this is the first time I have considered moving away from Windows, or at least never “upgrading”.
Windows XP and Windows 7 still work fine. If games stop coming out for them, I will see what platform is getting all the games. Linux? Valve’s own new game machine? That Ouhaoasdjh thing funded by Kickstarter?
In any case it is not going to be Windows 8/Metro, as guaranteed by their own policies on what they allow through their store, which specifically state, “No good games”.[/quote]It will still be possible to release standard PC games for Windows 8, even if it's not through the MS store.

[quote]I see Microsoft in the near future being just a shell of its former self.
Apple has been rising steadily in popularity thanks to iOS and other vendors are stepping up to fight in the console wars, while existing platforms may suddenly get a boost in popularity depending on how things go.[/quote]Well in turn, Android is massively more popular than IOS. It also seem contradictory to have a post that criticises MS for various policies, but then suggest they will be outdone by a mobile OS that does all these policies to a far greater extent. If people are going to boycott because of those policies, it will hurt Apple more. If not, it's not a problem in the first place.

[quote]The upcoming generation of gaming will leave consumers with many more options than previously, so we are no longer bound to just Windows and consoles. With many gamers feeling smitten by Microsoft, I see a lot of people intentionally seeking options outside of Microsoft, and Microsoft will ultimately end up in trouble.[/quote]There is nothing new here, for games there have long been devices (handheld and non-handheld) for playing games, that aren't Windows, and in some cases other things. Whether they are labelled "console" or not is a semantics issue. And on the contrary, this has been an area where MS has been increasing its reach over the last 10 years (mainly with X Box).

[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351488972' post='4994949']
There is no guarantee of anything being ported over, and many game companies not (yet) willing to out, with no guarantee they ever will.
No guarantee of ever being able to use my favorite applications and no guarantees as to what kinds of games will be available, but with guarantees on what kinds of games will NOT be available.[/quote]You will be able to play and use them on Windows 8. And even beyond then - MS tends to have long support for backwards compatibility, so there is no reason to think that this will change anytime soon. Even if eventually this gets pushed out into a "Ultimate" version. And pingz makes a good point - for MS to kill off the older compatibility sooner, and to be stricter about forcing people to release only through their site, this would require good uptake in the new APIs, and in releasing through their site. If what you claim is true, and no one wants this, then this also means you have less to fear anyway, as MS won't be in a position to do that so easily.

You see, I'm also worried by a future where you can only write software for a device you own if one of a few big companies lets you. But it's not logical to say "And so it'll flop", on the contrary, the fear exists that most people won't care, and it will be successful. Just as with Apple - it'd be fine if everyone was releasing for Android (and Symbian before that), but the fear is precisely because IOS gets catered for above all else, despite smaller share, and despite their closed platform. And if you want to criticise people for supporting a closed platform, you need to target the people who have done so for hundreds of thousands of IOS applications. You're the one who gave hundreds of dollars to Apple for their closed platform - not I.

[quote]This would be fine if it was the App Store. It’s just crap for my New iPad. I never planned on playing Mortal Kombat Super Bloody Gore Version 3,000 on it.
But this is a desktop. My entire life, essentially.
I can’t feel safe with that much of my life under that much control.
Just as my New iPad can be nothing more than a small side part of my life, Windows Metro will, in all of the foreseeable future, be nothing but an on-the-side toy if it has any part in my life at all.[/quote]Here I think is the problem. You happily hand over hundreds of dollars to get every New Device from Apple, despite it only being a small part of your life. But for something that offers much more for you, you don't want to pay the $30 upgrade, just because of some of the policies that Apple are far worse on anyway. And you post to forums arguing for others to do the same. Quite frankly, if MS have decided that they should take on some of the profiteering tactics from Apple, it's people like you who are to blame [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

[quote]This is the mentality a lot of people seem to have. People will likely get more and more comfortable with the idea of the Windows machine being just a side as some other platform grows to the forefront of their minds.[/quote]Well hang on, if a Windows machine is just a side thing, and your New Ipad is your life, surely by the above reasoning, you now need to criticise Apple, whilst excusing MS for doing the same thing? Edited by mdwh
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[quote name='Heath' timestamp='1351474584' post='4994900']
[quote name='Martins Mozeiko' timestamp='1351473846' post='4994896']
I think it will be same as it was with Vista/DX10. At first "everybody" will "hate" it because of breaking backward compatibility But after a while it will be normal to use as it is now normal to use DX11.
[/quote]I agree.

I remember the clamor and controversy over Windows XP, and that turned out to be nothing. In fact, people who had first claimed they would stick to Windows 98SE and Linux later turned around and said they would stick with Windows XP when Vista was coming out. People are fickle.
[/quote]Yes, this - I find it amusing that Windows XP is now hailed as being the best MS OS ever...

Don't get me wrong, I do share some concerns. I don't think that touch-screen-tablet only is the future. But I find it odd that MS get all the hate when it's clear the keyboard will live on in their vision on the future, and the critics tell us we should switch to a certain company that really is pushing touch-only devices.

And I fully oppose the idea of a company having control over what's released on a platform, but again, people should have been criticising that other company doing that from the start, rather than praising them for doing the very same thing. Especially since on Windows you can carry on releasing software the old fashioned way if you like. (If one doesn't like the Metro interface anyway, why care that you can't release on it? Just carry on as before.)

OOI, does anyone know what the "can only be released through Microsoft shop" applies to? Is it Windows RT (i.e., the ARM version)? Or anything using the "Metro" interface? Or anything that compiles to WinRT (as opposed to Win32 - not to be confused with Windows RT...)

Typically MS does react to criticisms, but doesn't back down altogether. So the problems with Vista were ironed out with Windows 7, but the interesting thing is that all of the new features and changes remained, and people liked them once the issues were ironed out. I suspect we'll see something similar with Windows 8. We've already seen this, e.g., the change to allow mature games as someone posted; there was also the change to allow the new Express versions of Visual Studio to still be able to create non-Metro software. Edited by mdwh
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[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351500069' post='4994979']
It has been established that the article you referenced is out of date. You are also confusing two aspects of Windows 8. There is Windows RT, which is designed to run on ARM devices, primarily phones and tablets. This is not designed to be anyone's primary device! Some tablets, and laptops / desktops running x86 hardware will have full desktop access and not everything will have to go through the store or certification process. Why isn't everyone up in arms that you cannot install steam games on iOS or Android? This is the exact same thing except for the fact that Microsoft also has support for the "mobile" (metro / modern) apps to run on desktop machines. That means you can pretty much write it once (depending on the features you leverage), and run it on the phones, the tablets and the desktop. However to paranoid fanboys, Microsoft is just a large company which must be doing evil stuff, so clearly they are going to act [i]against their best interest[/i] just to inconvenience people.

It's probably worth noting that I've been running Windows 8 on my Macbook Pro for months, both in bootcamp and in Parallels. I have not purchased a single application through the store yet. I can run everything on Windows 8 that I can on Windows 7, and for the most part it runs better.
[/quote]

I was hoping this point would be made, the idea of the Store is really just so that the WinRT version can gain attraction. Windows 8 Pro will just be Metro and a Windows 7 subsystem..All your programs can run on it, and the Store is only a means of getting "other" apps.. Microsoft is just trying to create their own ecosystem here, I think all the concerns and worries are misplaced. I too have been running Windows 8 on a desktop and none of these fears have risen mainly due to the fact that I can run desktop applications..that includes GAMES!

It's crazy how the gaming paradigm has shifted, there never used to be this notion that in order for your game to gain attention, you'd need to use a "Store"..It seems its only an excuse to not think about marketing, since the stores rating system will do that for you..pity..I still play games that didnt require a store for me to know it was popular.
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[quote name='pingz' timestamp='1351479234' post='4994917']
[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1351478615' post='4994915']<br />my games will eventually have to be released to Metro or else not be on Windows at all<br />[/quote]

The desktop isn't going anywhere.[/quote]
Currently! But we're one more step closer to Windows becoming completely a walled garden. Windows RT [i]is[/i] completely, and who knows how vast a market share that will get if it's on all the netbooks? Windows 8 currently is a mix, but will Windows 9 be? We don't know, but it seems likely.

[quote]Do you really think Visual Studio will become Metro only? Do you think any programmer inside of Microsoft that works day in and out using Visual Studio thinks that is the future of all applications?[/quote]
The free version [b]was[/b] Metro only, until people vocally complained. But I don't care if Visual Studio is or is not, I use MinGW anyway. What I care about is whether the entire OS goes Metro-only sometime down the road. Windows RT [b]already is[/b]. Windows 9 might be - we just don't know yet. It's not fantasy thinking, it's a high probability that this is the route Microsoft intends to go. It's not a route *I* want Microsoft to go. It's not a guarantee, but it is [i]very[/i] likely. Hence my concern.

[quote]If you look closely at the new WinRT API you'll see it supports multiple Window objects in a single application. While you currently have no way to create a second window... that obviously won't be true forever. WinRT is "Metro" style apps only right now... within a year I expect the next WinRT revision will allow desktop applications as well.[/quote]

[img]http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5690/windowsrtwikipediathefr.png[/img]

For the upteenth time.... Windows 8 runs Win32 apps. WE KNOW. But Windows RT will not run anything that hasn't been sold through the Windows Store. It's not [i]Metro[/i] vs [i]Non-metro[/i], not an interface debate, it's [i]Microsoft-authorized only[/i] vs [i]multiple choices of distributors keeping costs and service competitive[/i]. No indies marketting through their own website. Windows Store or nothing. No alternative stores like Steam offering huge sales with steep discounts and constant innovation. Just Windows Store or nothing. This fear isn't here yet, but it's closer and that is what we are complaining about.

How much market share will Windows RT (shipped on cheap laptops) get? What will Windows 9 do? These are valid concerns.

[quote]People seem to think WinRT and Metro is about killing the desktop and open distribution of apps... it is not. The real goal is replacing the 20 years of legacy APIs that keep Windows from being secure and performant on lower end devices.[/quote]
It has plenty of benefits - secure software is a primary one. However, it also [i]is [/i]killing open distribution [i]on some[/i] Windows releases (Windows RT), and [i]might[/i] do so on all future Windows releases (Windows 9). That's our concern.

Non-'[i]Windows Store[/i]' software [i]WILL NOT WORK[/i] on some versions of Windows 8 (the Windows RT versions). Already a piece of the Windows market is blocked. How large, we won't know until we find out the Windows RT market share (which will be shipped on cheap netbooks and will likely be a substantial but not dominant portion). Windows 9 may take it all the way away from non-'[i]Windows Store[/i]'.

If Microsoft Surface becomes successful, too bad for any software not sold through Microsoft and giving Microsoft a 30% fee. The non-RT version of Surface won't ship until January. Every Surface sold for launch and for the Christmas season will not support any software except the ones that Microsoft sells for you. Not fantasy, this is fact.
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I love win 7 ultimate with its bit locker option. I also do not like this tablet look of win 8. I mean as an developer environment I would like to keep win 7 desktop look. I have seen some people around on the web saying that that could be fixed. However never seen any option like that in the many presentation videos on win 8.

Also upgrading from a win 7 ultimate edition seems like downgrading for me. Perhaps I need to do some more research on that one [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

The win 8 app store should not be a huge issue as people should still be able to download games and install them just like on win 7 as far as I have read. In fact I see the app store as a competition element to Steam and nothing more. In other words yet another option for buying and downloading games.

I do expect it to be buggy and I shall await the brave Torque pioneers who dare install win 8 and test it out [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.png[/img]

In fact I would like to give it a chance but I do not wanna get rid of my bit locker option so for now until I know more and actually feel a need to do a more profound research on the matter I shall not invest time in win 8.
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[quote name='Heath' timestamp='1351502791' post='4994992']
[quote]Anyway, this seems like one of the versions you better skip as a customer.[/quote]What sells me is Windows To Go. If I can run Windows off a USB stick as I can with Linux and PC-BSD, that's great. I feel like that won't be enough for some really important tasks, but that's one feature that grabs me.

[quote]I'm not a fan of the whole AppStore concept. No matter who is offering it. I don't use Apple's (or any other of Apple's overpriced product), Steam or similar software.[/quote]Thing is, you have this on *nix too. I use apt-get/"Software Center" on Ubuntu. FreeBSD has ports. What's the difference between Ubuntu's Software Center and an app store? One is the other; you can buy Braid on Ubuntu Software Center, and you can buy Braid on Windows Store (I'm guessing).

And that's just an organized way to install software, so I usually prefer it.
[/quote]

Okay, I should have been more precise. I shouldn't have used "a customer" for my personal opinion. However I don't feel like I will have a huge advantage when switching to Windows 8. There isn't any feature that make me want it. And as far as I know Microsofts pattern, all the new features (that I don't really need) will feel unpolished and only get better after the first or second service pack or if we're unlucky we will have to wait for Windows 9.


Now the other issue. Sure Linux/BSD do have package repositories. But there different, you can have multiple repositories provided by different people and you can always install stuff without using any repository at all. I don't know how Ubuntu's Software Center works, but if it's the sinlge vendor controlled place to get software for Ubuntu, there isn't any difference to Apples or Microsofts AppStore.

It's also quite different if the provider of an AppStore is also distributing Software over it's own AppStore. As a developer you can't be sure that your product get's the same attention and advertisement as a competeting product made by the store owner.

And one more, as customer you have to trust the store owner that he makes sure software that is being sold in his store isn't crap. As far as I can tell, this doesn't work so well. Apple seems to allow any crappy piece of software in their store, as long as it's not malware.
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In my opinion, Windows XP and Windows 7 were [b]huge [/b]steps forward, while Vista and Windows 8 were [b]huge [/b]steps backward. Though Vista was only a really crappy implementation, Windows 8 is a step backwards [i]by design[/i].

My general dislike of hammering a tablet-computer look on a desktop left aside, the single most important reason not to support Metro is that Windows 8 is an attempt to close the open PC platform, as Mr. Persson (the "Minecraft guy") has put it. This is not only about censoring what kind of applications you [i]may [/i](may? what the f...?) write and publish, it is also about what APIs, operating system features and languages you can use.

Insofar you are doing yourself and every other developer a great disservice by supporting Windows 8. Of course I'm aware that it will come. Either way, it will come, and either way it will be successful. But that doesn't mean I have to actively support it coming.
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Putting games aside, does anybody have any links to reactions from large IT companies? It seems to me that companies that make their money creating specialized applications for businesses would be dramatically affected as well if they have to go through MS to get their software to run.
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[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1351521414' post='4995067']
[quote]Just as my New iPad can be nothing more than a small side part of my life, Windows Metro will, in all of the foreseeable future, be nothing but an on-the-side toy if it has any part in my life at all.[/quote]Here I think is the problem. You happily hand over hundreds of dollars to get every New Device from Apple, despite it only being a small part of your life. But for something that offers much more for you, you don't want to pay the $30 upgrade, just because of some of the policies that Apple are far worse on anyway. And you post to forums arguing for others to do the same. Quite frankly, if MS have decided that they should take on some of the profiteering tactics from Apple, it's people like you who are to blame [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img][/quote]
I think you misunderstood.[list=1]
[*]I never “happily” paid for it. I paid for it double-begrudgingly since they didn’t have the cheap model I wanted (which alone would have been single-begrudging) and had to spend an extra $150 or so.
[*]I said in my post it is nothing but a side. I use it for development, listening to music on the way to and from work, and sharing pictures on dates. Nothing more. I have never even purchased a single app for it.
[*]Every new Apple device? After 5 years I [i]finally[/i] got a single iOS device (New iPad) and to develop for it I got a [u][i]used[/i][/u] MacBook Pro.
[*]So people such as myself are quite clearly not to blame for Microsoft’s shift in policies. People such as myself have proved very unprofitable for Apple directly as I have never used the App Store and have only ever in my life purchased 1 Apple product new.
[/list]

[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1351521414' post='4995067']
[quote]This is the mentality a lot of people seem to have. People will likely get more and more comfortable with the idea of the Windows machine being just a side as some other platform grows to the forefront of their minds.[/quote]Well hang on, if a Windows machine is just a side thing, and your New Ipad is your life, surely by the above reasoning, you now need to criticise Apple, whilst excusing MS for doing the same thing?
[/quote]
As I said, my New iPad can never be more than a side thing. Here:
[quote]Just as my New iPad can be nothing more than a small side part of my life[/quote]

I don’t like Windows Metro because mobile policies don’t belong on a desktop, at least not strictly. Windows RT is no problem for me. It is just a mobile device and so by definition could never be more than a side.
Why does that make me a Linux/Apple fanboy according to tstrimple or one of those kiddies who buys every new Apple product (or at least the iOS ones)?
I don’t see how these assumptions get made when I am the exact opposite.


L. Spiro
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So I will say this. I don't think the Desktop app will last much longer on Microsoft OSes, especially if Windows 8 becomes successful. So the concern over a Metro-only world is a valid concern. But honestly, I don't see how or why Microsoft would close off the system like that. I don't think the MacOS has done such a thing yet. And Android is certainly not going to go in that direction.
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[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1351527159' post='4995096']
The free version [b]was[/b] Metro only, until people vocally complained. [/quote]

Wrong. The free version only allowed you to build Metro apps. There is no Metro version of Visual Studio.

[quote]For the upteenth time.... Windows 8 runs Win32 apps. WE KNOW. But Windows RT will not run anything that hasn't been sold through the Windows Store.[/quote]

Who cares?! Windows RT is not designed to be your primary environment! Windows RT is the equivalent of iOS and Android. Windows 8 is the new (better) operating system which also happens to be able to run applications targeting mobile devices.

[quote]No indies marketting through their own website. Windows Store or nothing. No alternative stores like Steam offering huge sales with steep discounts and constant innovation. Just Windows Store or nothing. This fear isn't here yet, but it's closer and that is what we are complaining about.

How much market share will Windows RT (shipped on cheap laptops) get? What will Windows 9 do? These are valid concerns.[/quote]

Except they are not valid concerns. I'll repeat, anyone who thinks Microsoft is going to jettison their 95% grip on the desktop / laptop market is an idiot. There are over 1.2 [b]billion[/b] Windows desktop installs across the world right now. Compare that to the 150+ [i]million[/i] iOS devices, and the 250 [i]million[/i] android devices. It makes no business sense to screw your 1.2 [b]billion[/b] customers in order to try to take over a hundred million or so mobile devices. The [b]only[/b] reliable upgrade path for those billion customers is to ensure that their applications continue to work on the new operating systems.

[quote]Non-'[i]Windows Store[/i]' software [i]WILL NOT WORK[/i] on some versions of Windows 8 (the Windows RT versions).[/quote]
Once again, who cares? OSX apps won't work on iOS. [b]EVERYBODY PANIC![/b]

[quote]If Microsoft Surface becomes successful, too bad for any software not sold through Microsoft and giving Microsoft a 30% fee. The non-RT version of Surface won't ship until January. Every Surface sold for launch and for the Christmas season will not support any software except the ones that Microsoft sells for you. Not fantasy, this is fact.[/quote]

So what? Microsoft isn't the only one making Windows 8 devices. Most of the devices available as of last Friday are full blown Windows 8 devices. Not Windows RT. Lets not pretend like only Windows RT is available until January.
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[quote name='kseh' timestamp='1351533316' post='4995113']
Putting games aside, does anybody have any links to reactions from large IT companies? It seems to me that companies that make their money creating specialized applications for businesses would be dramatically affected as well if they have to go through MS to get their software to run.
[/quote]

Except you don't have to go through the MS store.

[url="http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/04/19/managing-quot-byo-quot-pcs-in-the-enterprise-including-woa.aspx"]Managing "BYO" PCs in the enterprise (including WOA)[/url]

[quote]As mentioned, the Metro style self-service portal app, or SSP, is the day-to-day interface for the corporate user to access their management infrastructure. Here they can browse to discover LOB apps that have been made available to them by the IT admin. There are actually four different types of apps that IT can publish for users in the SSP:
[list]
[*]Internally-developed Metro style apps that are not published in the Windows Store
[*]Apps produced by independent software vendors that are licensed to the organization for internal distribution
[*]Web links that launch websites and web-based apps directly in the browser
[*]Links to app listings in the Windows Store. This is a convenient way for IT to make users aware of useful business apps that are publicly available.
[/list]
Since the user specified his or her corporate credentials as part of the initial connection with the management infrastructure, the IT admin can then specify which apps are published to each user individually, based on the user’s AD domain user account, or as a member of AD user groups. As a result, the user only sees those apps that are applicable to them in the SSP.[/quote]
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