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L. Spiro

How Much do You Plan to Support Windows 8/Metro?

84 posts in this topic

[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1351655314' post='4995685']
[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351631716' post='4995581']
If you use Microsoft's infrastructure for collecting payments, you pay the same % as the app purchase. However you can implement your own in-app purchase and it is not against the [url="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx#acr_4_7"]certification requirements[/url].

...

Thus, it's possible to distribute through the Windows app store for free, and build the purchase into the app itself, and you would keep all of the revenue. Just keep in mind, a user is probably much more likely to want to press the purchase button on the store than to trust you with their credit card.
[/quote]
Interesting. But just because it permits you to use a third-party provider, that doesn't mean they don't collect their share, does it? Skimming the license agreements, and skimming what you posted, I can't find any clarity on the subject. I bet Microsoft will come out with a list of acceptable third-party providers, and take their share from the provider directly before it reaches the developer, instead of trying to retrieve money from individual developers.
[/quote]

Read 4.9: [i]4.9 [b]If your app collects credit card info[/b] or uses a third-party payment processor that collects credit card info, the payment processing must meet the current PCI Data Security Standard (PCI DSS)[/i]

I've been told by someone at Microsoft that you can collect payment on your own and not pay them the fee. Edited by tstrimple
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[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1351655314' post='4995685']
Interesting. But just because it permits you to use a third-party provider, that doesn't mean they don't collect their share, does it?
[/quote]
It is there. Yes you can charge inside your app in whatever way you please as long as it meets their guidelines.
Their guidelines do not force you to pay them any commissions etc.

It is actually on strategy some are employing or plan to employ: Cut Microsoft out by making your app free to download then charge in the app for things with no royalties/commissions to Microsoft.


L. Spiro
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Not at all:
[url="http://www.mstechpages.com/2011/09/14/disable-metro-in-windows-8-developer-preview/"]http://www.mstechpages.com/2011/09/14/disable-metro-in-windows-8-developer-preview/[/url]
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[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351664451' post='4995718']
It is actually on strategy some are employing or plan to employ: Cut Microsoft out by making your app free to download then charge in the app for things with no royalties/commissions to Microsoft.

[/quote]

If these guys are not big companies, I think they will quickly find their strategy backfired, when their cost to handle the payments rise above any commission they would pay to microsoft.
Don't forget things like fraud prevention, refunds, cost of development, support personel, etc.
Combined with a much smaller group of people willing to trust your home-cooked payment system, it sounds like a strategy that will only hurt yourself, and for what really? making a point?

Paypal you say? Well, not very good for micro payments.
If you get 1$ on paypal, they will levy a much larger fee then 30%. Quick search in paypals site says a fee of 3,25 SEK + 1,9 - 3,5%... $1 = 6,6 SEK, so thats more then 50% cut!
I think you will get similar deals with any credit card company, if you are not a big player and can broker something better Edited by Olof Hedman
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Microsoft is hosting it's Build 2012 conference right now and you can watch it live or watch past sessions here: [url="http://channel9.msdn.com/"]http://channel9.msdn.com/[/url]
I have heard them confirm more than once that if you use your own payment system you don't pay any fees. One in the keynote speach Ballmer gave and later in the talk "Windows store: how does it work" Just select day 1 then scroll down to select those sessions to see it for your self.

They showed an example (don't remember where, I think it was in one of the keynote talks) where you could select between Microsoft store and paypal payment when buying an application from the store. This probably means you don't need to make the application free first and then later chage in the app to cut Microsoft out. You can probably charge them already when they buying you app from the store which would be good news.

But like Olof said for small companies it might be a lot easier to just use the Microsoft store system. What you actually paying Microsoft for using their commerce system and API and let them handle the payment and not for your app being in the store. Edited by PjotrSvetachov
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[quote name='PjotrSvetachov' timestamp='1351685383' post='4995795']
Microsoft is hosting it's Build 2012 conference right now and you can watch it live or watch past sessions here: [url="http://channel9.msdn.com/"]http://channel9.msdn.com/[/url]
I have heard them confirm more than once that if you use your own payment system you don't pay any fees. One in the keynote speach Ballmer gave and later in the talk "Windows store: how does it work" Just select day 1 then scroll down to select those sessions to see it for your self.
[/quote]

Recording does not appear to be up yet [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/sad.png[/img]

Should probably be up in the next day or so.

edit: it's up now. Edited by way2lazy2care
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[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351629881' post='4995568']
[quote name='slayemin' timestamp='1351622532' post='4995513']
1. Visual Studio costs lots of money!!! VS2012 Ultimate is $13,000!!![/quote]
Not sure where you're getting your prices. VS is expensive, but it's not that expensive. The professional edition is probably the one to shoot for if you're buying a license. I have access to ultimate, and I do not use any of the more advanced features. Professional is selling for $800, and Ultimate is just over $6,000. It is also worth keeping in mind that you're not just buying Visual Studio, you're getting an MSDN subscription as well which allows you to download pretty much all Microsoft software for development purposes. This includes all of their office suites, all of their operating systems, etc. Plus it's not all that hard to get those tools (even ultimate) for free. Check out Bizspark, WebsiteSparkand DreamSpark.
[/quote]
The only reason I know is because I was pricing it out a few months ago. It really is $13,000. See for yourself [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[url="http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-ultimate-2012#product-edition-ultimate-details"]Visual Studio 2012 Ultimate[/url] - $13,299
[url="http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-premium-2012#product-edition-premium-details"]Visual Studio 2012 Premium[/url] - $6,119
[url="http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-professional-2012#product-edition-professional-details"]Visual Studio 2012 Professional[/url] - $1,199
Visual Studio 2012 Express - Free
I use 2010 ultimate at my workplace. I probably don't use most of the features which come available with it, so I probably wouldn't miss them. But, it's still expensive software! I can't justify spending $13,000 for the top notch IDE with all the bells and whistles.
[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1351629881' post='4995568']
[quote]2. If you want to code for the MS platform using their API's (DirectX, XNA, .NET), you get locked in to the MS ecosystem. This limits the market base you can target. Java apps, on the other hand, will work on any platform which can run and support the JVM. You don't have to run any VM's or third party software. (note: the VM is included in the JVM). Making .NET available on non-MS products is contrary to Microsofts big picture business plan -- to build and run an MS controlled ecosystem.[/quote]
This is just flat out wrong. Mono and MonoTouch allow you to run your .NET apps on OSX, Linux, Android and iOS. You may have heard of an XBLA game called Bastion.They used a version of MonoGame to take their XNA game and build it for the Google App Store.
[/quote]
I knew someone would come back with Mono, so I purposefully wrote my paragraph carefully. Mono is an open source API developed by a third party to make .NET operable with non-MS platforms. My claim is that out of the box MS .NET is not cross platform compatible. .NET is supposed to be Microsofts response to Java, which can be run on any hardware platforms which support the JVM. MS isn't going to go out of their way to make sure that .NET works on Linux because it doesn't align with their business vision of a MS only ecosystem. So, .NET is Microsofts answer to Java, but it's breadth just isn't comparable. For the multiplatform conscious developer, its more prudent to work with Java.

[quote]
[quote]1. The pricing structure for selling apps in the windows store.
[quote]Microsoft Source: When you sell apps through the Windows Store, we assess a Windows Store fee. For apps that generate less than $25,000 in sales, this fee is 30%. After the app generates its first $25,000 in sales, the fee on the subsequent revenue drops to 20%.[/quote]
Considering how I'm already slightly biased against it and a little reluctant to spend time, effort and money on developing a Win8 app in the first place, if all MS does is match their digital distribution competitors at a 30% take, I will be even more hesitant. They'd better sweeten the pot a bit and go down to 25% at the least, and ideally 20% overall. The first $30k should be all mine! Everyone wants their slice of my pie (government taxes & Microsoft)! Once I cover my development costs, I'd be willing to split the revenue a bit more generously... if I was going to charge.[/quote]
30% is the standard. It's what Apple and Google both charge. As far as I know, Microsoft is the only one that drops it to 20% after a certain amount of revenue. As far as app stores go, it's a pretty good deal.
[/quote]
My point is that microsoft is late to the digital distribution market. They need to convince developers that it's worth their time and effort to go through the trouble of targetting the win8 platform. I've got my reservations about the number of people who will adopt Win8. Most people will probably be happy with Win7, so the number of possible customers browsing the windows store won't be the whole windows users population -- it'll probably be a very limited subset. I think microsoft needs to undercut their competitors (Apple, Google, Steam, etc) with their revenue sharing model. Microsoft really needs to make a comeback in the digital distribution marketplace. It's not very incentivizing to offer the same pricing model because then the main differentiating factor is going to be who has the most eyeballs and MS isn't going to be a leader. I probably don't need to tell anyone this since most of us already know it, but the adoption of a platform is heavily influenced by the number of tools and apps available for it, which is in proportion to the number of developers building for the platform. It's right in line with their grand strategy of building and maintaining their MS ecosystem. Edited by slayemin
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Well their revenue is coming from 3 places: PCs, Tablets, and Phones. And seeing that WP8 shares the same core code as Win8, many apps from the phone could work as is on the Tablet/PCs and vice-versa. So for Microsoft, it'll be about the adoption rate of the Win8 platform overall. Plus with its tie-in to Xbox and ScreenGlass [sic], more people in one way or another will know and get used to the Metro style. Although, I have a feeling that WP8 Metro will be a bit more intuitive than Win8 Metro.
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I think I will be using Windows 8 allot. I like the idea of where Microsoft is going with Windows 8 Surface and I think it will open up a brand new market.
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Well... I have started "supporting" Windows 8 recently. I can see it's going to be a vivid market.
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