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Animate2D

Gamedev Users: How many have iOS versus Android


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Animate2D    182
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351828694' post='4996420']
And then there is Tegra 2, whose GPU is riddled with faulty OpenGL ES 2.0 implementation points. However portable you think your shaders are, they don’t work on Tegra 2 out-of-the-box.

[/quote]

I've noticed strange issue with Tegra 3 as well when things run butter smooth on PowerVR GPUs and others. I actually took a Tegra 3 tablet back because I was so completely disappointed. UI lag extreme as if the phantom fifth processor was not waking up the other cores fast enough. Why should the additional cores go to sleep only to cause android VM to run all GC threads on the reduced performance fifth core. Paid the same amount as iPad but the product was clearly inferior. I felt robbed.

Apple is just as fragmented in some respects. Dealing with "fragmentation" on my side really wasn't that bad. But maybe that is due to the screen formatting conventions I decided to use. Android has taken root. If I were to choose a game engine I need to be flexible and move left or right. So I chose an engine that supports both from a unified codebase. In that respect i think you need to support android. But then again, it's your engine and you can do as you please!

The number one fragmentation issue for android is frame rate. I really wish they enforced 60 fps hardware from the start but they may not have even been aware that that was a necessity for a smooth phone experience. Edited by Animate2D

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Animate2D    182
I really should have included Windows Phone as an option. But in another sense it isn't quite relevant to me because my game engine does not support it yet but they do support Windows 7. Once they do support 7.5 and 8, I would image porting to windows mobile would take the same amount of effort porting to android required from iOS. Three days and nights.

Correction: Actually less time this time around because the file operations are implemented in c (listing directories, mkdirs -p, etc) for android which means only the root path defined for application home needs to change.

I have in total three Android devices, old HTC evo, galaxy nexus, kindle fire (to support that other android market place. I find it quite slimy that amazon created their own market place to complete with google and offer what I consider to be an inferior product). Two iOS devices, iPad and iPod. All necessary for cross platform development. I like to test directly on real devices. I will own a windows device when that time comes, but it ain't now.

Something that absolutely stinks on android is the emulator (shame on them for that)! When in today's world of virtualization, why not provide a real OS that runs on i386.


Despite being objective c and objective c++, getting a functional app running in Xcode and iOS has been far faster than android due to the difference in speed at which you can launch the app and test those 40 lines of code you just added.

I seldom write more that about 40 lines of code before testing unless I am working on a refactoring. I'll even test one line of code particularly when dealing with screen formatting changes.

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Dynamo_Maestro    769
Neither, although sadly I am surrounded by iPhones, almost everyone I know has one, I never really got sold into the whole phone app crap but will definitely consider WP8 because I a MS fanboi and havent had a phone in 5 years (shocking I know) and WP8 seems like a good choice because <insert biased reason here>

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Animate2D    182
I am truly surprised that windows on phone did not take off. Particularly in android's stage of development windows phone was far supeior in smoothness and smoother than even iphone with the zune ui, but thats all different now:

I attribute this to a few reasons:

A) microsoft charges $10 per phone to use windows phone.
Now considering the razor slim margins these companies work lets assume 10 dollars to 100. Ten percent can be the difference between profitabilty and losing money.

B) windows live tile ui layout. Not enough space to view your background.
We like our backgrounds. One of those easiest to do personalization things
to the phone that seems to add so much to make it yours.
Mostly solid color block tiles renders the phone home screen bland to me.
I like seeing my icons glide across my background. Windows tiles robs too much background
viewing space

C) Screen dimensions. Android was supporting all sorts of sizes. Atbthe time of launch windows support one rather small dimension atleast for me cause i have big hands.

D) the microsoft brand among consumers like me and you.
Obviously not as strong as google or apple.

E) lack of creativity (probably should have listed this first)
Smart phone existed before iOS. Infact it was windows mobile as the dominate
Smart phone OS. However they replicated the desktop experience and did not innovate at all

So credit where credit is due for apple to usher in that new experience.

Credit where credit is due to google to so rapidly respond with adaptations to android.

Microsoft you were just too slow. And inthe world of consumer electeonics the game is not with suppliers and OEMs but us.

In the future i want to see that 15 or 17 inch only touch tablet. I am finding i can create equally on it provided more thought goes into ui development.




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alnite    3436
[quote name='L. Spiro' timestamp='1351828694' post='4996420']
Debug with ::printf() only! It builds character!
[/quote]

Yes..yes, I'm sure printf() does build characters!

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alh420    5995
[quote name='Animate2D' timestamp='1351899334' post='4996700']
E) lack of creativity (probably should have listed this first)
Smart phone existed before iOS. Infact it was windows mobile as the dominate
Smart phone OS. However they replicated the desktop experience and did not innovate at all
[/quote]

Has windows ever been dominating? I thought it was Symbian that ruled in the dark times before iOS :)
Good riddance on that system... though doing NDK development on Android almost makes me feel like being back in the Symbian days... almost.

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Animate2D    182
I never considered symbian a smartphone OS. Of the 385 million installations, how many were true smart phones? But there it is on wikipedia touting it as a smart phone OS. But if you go to windows mobile wikipedia page in 2007 it is claimed they had 47% market share.

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_the_phantom_    11250
[quote name='Animate2D' timestamp='1351899334' post='4996700']
E) lack of creativity (probably should have listed this first)
Smart phone existed before iOS. Infact it was windows mobile as the dominate
Smart phone OS. However they replicated the desktop experience and did not innovate at all

So credit where credit is due for apple to usher in that new experience.
[/quote]

But did they REALLY?

Look at the post-lock screen on an iOS device and what do you have?
Rows of icons which you touch (aka 'click') to run an application.

How is this different to the rows of icons on my desktop?
Or on the various phones before it for that matter? (I had a WinCE based phone which had that setup, hell the P900 I had back in 2002/3 had that setup!)

Apple made the smart phone 'cool' via the iPod but on a concept and UI level didn't really do that much besides make the icons bigger and easier for people to touch with their fingers.

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alh420    5995
[quote name='Animate2D' timestamp='1351953117' post='4996861']
I never considered symbian a smartphone OS. Of the 385 million installations, how many were true smart phones? But there it is on wikipedia touting it as a smart phone OS. But if you go to windows mobile wikipedia page in 2007 it is claimed they had 47% market share.
[/quote]

You don't need a touchscreen to be a smartphone. Or at least you didn't. Only a small minority of smartphones had touchscreens before iPhone made an entrance and changed the game.
Then suddenly everyone realized they needed big touch screens...
So I'd say all of them where true smartphones according to the definition then, which simply meant a phone with an advanced multitasking OS where you could download and install native applications instead of just crappy java apps. Edited by Olof Hedman

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Animate2D    182
[quote name='alnite' timestamp='1351921790' post='4996780']
Yes..yes, I'm sure printf() does build characters!
[/quote]

You can't even use printf in android. stdout is piped to /dev/null. You have to use [b]__android_log_print[/b] macro.

When running with the debugger there is a way to redirect:
[source lang="bash"]
$ adb shell stop
$ adb shell setprop log.redirect-stdio true
$ adb shell start
[/source]

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Daaark    3553
[quote name='Dynamo_Maestro' timestamp='1351887423' post='4996651']
I never really got sold into the whole phone app crap[/quote]What is there to be sold on? It's nice to have a device in my pocket that is on par with the desktop PC I had only a few years ago.

It's nice to have a game console, my entire digital library, a camera, note taking software, movies, a star chart that I can point into the sky and see exactly what I'm looking at (great use of GPS and accelerometer!), social networking, document readers, [b]MAPS[/b], gps, etc, etc, etc... A convenience you will miss when it's gone. :) Edited by Daaark

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alnite    3436
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1351956046' post='4996870']
[quote name='Animate2D' timestamp='1351899334' post='4996700']
E) lack of creativity (probably should have listed this first)
Smart phone existed before iOS. Infact it was windows mobile as the dominate
Smart phone OS. However they replicated the desktop experience and did not innovate at all

So credit where credit is due for apple to usher in that new experience.
[/quote]

But did they REALLY?

Look at the post-lock screen on an iOS device and what do you have?
Rows of icons which you touch (aka 'click') to run an application.

How is this different to the rows of icons on my desktop?
Or on the various phones before it for that matter? (I had a WinCE based phone which had that setup, hell the P900 I had back in 2002/3 had that setup!)

Apple made the smart phone 'cool' via the iPod but on a concept and UI level didn't really do that much besides make the icons bigger and easier for people to touch with their fingers.
[/quote]

Sometimes, the most revolutionary thing is the most simple. I still don't fully understand the hype of iPhone when it first came out. It looked like a touch screen phone, and there were already touch screen phones at that time. So, Apple did not invent anything big on iPhone. To me, at least, it was just another phone with an apple on the back.

However, the only thing they did right was doing things right. The touch responsiveness was far more superior than any other touch screen phones at that time, and Apple beefed up its phone to have 128MB RAM. I was a J2ME developer at that time, and I was making games on phones with 512KB RAM with Java! This was during the time when the best phone available was probably around 16MB RAM. Having 128MB RAM felt like you had been living in a hut and were given a mansion.

Most phones' UI at that time were horrendous. Touch screens, if there were any, were frustratingly unresponsive. You have to navigate around with the D-pad. Menus were confusing, and different from phones to phones, from carriers to carriers. Another point for Apple for having 'standardized' phone's UI.

After Apple allowed developers to create native apps, that's basically when the mobile apps started to explode. No more fragmentation that J2ME is having. You were only targeting one device, one resolution, one spec -- and a pretty darn nice spec too for a phone. Random games and apps starting to sprout like mushrooms. This pretty much killed all the J2ME apps market (which were only known by technically-savvy folks anyway), and gave birth to the App Store.

You are correct that Apple didn't invent anything, but by doing things right on existing technologies, they revolutionized the whole mobile experience. Phones did not have maps. Phones did not have GPS, or accelerometer. Phones browsers were crap. There were never a need for data plan. Now, it has all changed. Edited by alnite

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alh420    5995
[quote name='Daaark' timestamp='1351974240' post='4996963']
[quote name='Dynamo_Maestro' timestamp='1351887423' post='4996651']
I never really got sold into the whole phone app crap[/quote]What is there to be sold on?
[/quote]

Hehe, I never understood the people who wanted to carry around a silly phone in their pocket.

But when I could carry around a little computer with internet connection I could write programs for, the choice was easy [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img] Edited by Olof Hedman

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alh420    5995
About the iPhone UI.

I worked in the mobile UI industry when the iPhone got out, writing code for Symbian, Nokia and Sony Ericsson (and a bit for Samsung)

It was a huge deal [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

No-one had designed a touch-only phone before, no-one had the courage to go all out like that. The UI frameworks available at the time was very set in the button thinking, and any touch UIs where simply hacks where you could touch menubars and such, that where never really designed to be touched, and was way too small.
At best, they used a mouse model, but you don't touch things on the screen the same way you use a mouse...
So they gave you a pen with the phone so you could hit the tiny screen buttons, and a couple of hardware buttons and a scroll wheel, so you didn't have to use the touch UI they knew sucked.

Another thing with touch that apple, and only apple understood, (well, any touch user experience expert worth their name would understand too) and was alone with for a loooong time, was the importance of responsiveness.

And thats not just that the phone has to have high performance, its the little things like lists bouncing back when you drag to the end, everything snuggly grabbing your fingertip and follow around in your movements, what ever you do, even when you do an "invalid" touch movment.

Makes you feel in control.

The other touch ui:s had you fighting with laggy response, and bad resistive touch screens and a constant doubt of "did I really press? I better press again... ooops! now I pressed something on the next page, go back! go back!"

Then of course the multi touch. pinch to zoom... well of course that is how you should do it.. why had noone else done it before [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img] Well people had ofcourse, about anyone who had prototyped a multi touch UI, but apple, and only apple, managed to get it into a phone.

It was also the first fully hardware accelerated UI, another important factor for responsiveness. Many of the old systems had big problems trying to shoehorn hardware support into their old legacy-filled ui frameworks. Apple had a huge advantage when starting from a clean slate and had the wisdom of prioritizing it... how long took it for android to get hardware acceleration of the UI? (standardized hardware helps immensely of course)

They were the first that managed to make a touch phone that was actually a joy to use. And ofcourse it hit big.

Its not until now, with Android ICS, that they really have any serious competition on the user experience points imo. (havn't tried windows phone yet) Edited by Olof Hedman

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Animate2D    182
[quote name='Olof Hedman' timestamp='1352024321' post='4997122']

But when I could carry around a little computer with internet connection I could write programs for, the choice was easy

[/quote]

Laptop screen too small for me to write code. I like to see a lot of lines at once wide.

Apple did not invent. They innovated. Very difficult to truly invent. But much easier to innovate. Which is to take an existing set of ideas and put it together as one, or make an idea, invention, or other innovation better in a unique way.

So the list of innovations for a phone all together as one (just the hardware):[list]
[*]Responsive touch only screen on phone.
[*]Three axis accelerometers
[*]Proximity sensor so screen goes off when you hold it to your face
[*]GPU accelerated graphics on a phone
[*]much bigger screen on phone than what was typical at the time
[*]doing way with the stylus
[*]60 FPS from the beginning
[/list]
Software innovations on a phone:[list]
[*]Full featured browser less flash plugin
[*]Bounce back to provide organic feel for scrolling and other seemly superfluous animations to your most staunch logical techno nerds
[*]call waiting that actually works properly on a smart phone. I have not an android phone yet that does this properly.
[*]soft keyboard on phone
[*]Random access voice messages - still missing to this day on galaxy nexus.
[*]responsiveness and fluidness - of which android is finally there with jelly bean - less running a c++ game engine on earlier versions of android.
[*]UI that automatically reorientates based on how the device is held
[*]beautiful perhaps overly simplistic UI that required no documentation or guess work to use or figure out
[/list]
Now in terms of the motion event API internally, I doubt apple came up with that because there had been plenty of research on multi touch screens and UI frameworks. And the mechanics of this was already probably figured out.


[b]This is said from a current android phone user.[/b] I give credit where credit is due.

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alh420    5995
[quote name='abcdef44' timestamp='1352133097' post='4997614']
In EU market shares are:
Android: 75%
IOS: 15%
Windows 2%
Linux 2%
and some others
[/quote]

Looks like these numbers, which are world wide: [url="http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812"]http://www.idc.com/g...Id=prUS23771812[/url]
Might look bad for apple, but interestingly, apple increased their market share too over the last year, from 14 to 15, and sold 59% more phones then the year before, well above the average growth of the market. So its not like they are hurting that much.
They never really had that large share, if one remember Symbian (which most tend to forget, and I don't blame them)

You can see on the numbers that the thing android does more then anything else is help expanding the smartphone market (90%+ growth!), selling to people who never had a smartphone before, and taking over symbian, bb and windows shares.

It doesn't seem to be that many that convert from iOS just yet. Edited by Olof Hedman

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='Olof Hedman' timestamp='1352134700' post='4997626']
[quote name='abcdef44' timestamp='1352133097' post='4997614']
In EU market shares are:
Android: 75%
IOS: 15%
Windows 2%
Linux 2%
and some others
[/quote]

Looks like these numbers, which are world wide: [url="http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812"]http://www.idc.com/g...Id=prUS23771812[/url]
Might look bad for apple, but interestingly, apple increased their market share too over the last year, from 14 to 15, and sold 59% more phones then the year before, well above the average growth of the market. So its not like they are hurting that much.
They never really had that large share, if one remember Symbian (which most tend to forget, and I don't blame them)

You can see on the numbers that the thing android does more then anything else is help expanding the smartphone market (90%+ growth!), selling to people who never had a smartphone before, and taking over symbian, bb and windows shares.

It's not that many that convert from iOS just yet.
[/quote]

Indeed, iOS only really competes in the high end market, If you strip out the lower spec Android phones the race is fairly even. (The Galaxy Y for example is selling for ~$170(often "free" if you tie yourself to an operator) and is doing incredibly well, both in less wealthy countries and as a feature phone replacement for those who just want a reasonably cheap phone) Edited by SimonForsman

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mdwh    1108
[quote]Cool.. android is dominating so far. Quite unexpected from my side. In New York City it seems like everyone has the iPhone.[/quote]There really is no doubt that Android is *way* ahead. Never mind anecdotes and polls, this is supported by the actual stats (e.g., see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/05/android_sucess/ ). It is now at about 75% share, with Iphone only at 15%.

Also note that whilst Iphone is now the number two platform on quarterly sales, this is relatively recent. Symbian was number one until 2011, and still a major platform until dropped by Nokia last year. And whilst the other platforms may now be smaller than Iphone, they still represent a significant share - far more than say, Linux on the desktop.

Also note that the installed userbase for platforms like Symbian and Blackberry will be much higher than their current sales would suggest (since most people don't throw their phones away every year).

It's really a shame that there're these prevalent myths of Iphone being the largest, or that the mobile market has just been IOS and Android. Historically, Iphone has never been number one, and for many years was 3rd, 4th, or even 5th place. And whilst it can now claim 2nd place, that really isn't saying much, when it's still a low 15%, and Android is so far ahead.

For me, I use a Samsung Galaxy Nexus. Until earlier this year, I used Symbian on a Nokia 5800, which I still develop for, as the market is still massive (I get about 100 times the downloads for Symbian on Nokia Store, compared with Google Play).

[quote]They never really had that large share, if one remember Symbian (which most tend to forget, and I don't blame them)[/quote]Indeed, though not sure why we should forget Symbian - as I say, it's a shame to misrepresent the market. If that's a snarky comment on you not liking the platform, (a) I disagree (I loved Symbian, and competed just as well as Android), (b) personal opinions aren't really an argument for pretending iphone was the biggest. I might as well say that iphone doesn't exist, because I'd rather forget about it.

[quote]Indeed, iOS only really competes in the high end market, If you strip out the lower spec Android phones the race is fairly even.[/quote]I'd be curious to see evidence/stats for this...? The S3 alone is doing pretty well - add in the Note 2, the Nexus, the high end HTCs etc, it's not clear to me that this would be lower than Iphone. Also remember that if you're limiting by spec, you also have to strip out all the Iphone 4 and 4S sales, which still make up a fair proportion of the Iphone figures.
Edited by mdwh

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L. Spiro    25620
Thanks to the difficulties in developing for Android, it is simply not possible for Android to win.

While number of sales is one statistic, it really has no meaning.
I can sell an acorn for 10 cents and create 10,000,000 sales.
If I sold the same acorn for $1 and sold only 1,000,000, I have done the same thing.

It’s super-duper that Google has sold so many Android devices, but in the end it was just a 10-cent sale. The numbers say Android is winning in terms of users, but that really has no meaning when prices are compared. Android can rack up all the numbers it wants; it is still losing because those iPhone sales are [b]profitable[/b] for Apple.

And this is coming from someone who hates Apple and likes Google.
I am offended when there is any mention of a search engine other than Google’s. Bing? Fuck off Microsoft.
I use Google Chrome and slap people in the face who don’t. (It’s funny because here in Japan most people don’t know why I just slapped them.)

Android development is something to which I will never subject myself, and fuck Google for making it so. In history there has never been so much dip-shittery. “Let’s let all the devices have capabilities dependent on vendors.”
Nice way to segregate the developers who really just want their shit to run the same on all devices they support.

I like Google, but Android is nothing but shit.

You can quote numbers all day long but the actual prices of each device tell the real story, and Apple got it right this time, as much as I hate them.

Once more, I tend to favor Google over most corporations, and the only Apple product I have ever bought was reluctant, but in this war the winner is simply obvious. No matter how many sales units are projected, Apple dominates the mobile industry where it actually matters.


L. Spiro

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alh420    5995
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1352210016' post='4998024']
It's really a shame that there're these prevalent myths of Iphone being the largest, or that the mobile market has just been IOS and Android. Historically, Iphone has never been number one, and for many years was 3rd, 4th, or even 5th place. And whilst it can now claim 2nd place, that really isn't saying much, when it's still a low 15%, and Android is so far ahead.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone who actually know anything about the smartphone market have ever thought that iPhone is the largest.
Though, on the other hand, most people don't even know what a smartphone is, and don't care.
It has been the biggest "large fancy touch-phone" for some time though, which I think is what the customer classifies it as.

[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1352210016' post='4998024']For me, I use a Samsung Galaxy Nexus. Until earlier this year, I used Symbian on a Nokia 5800, which I still develop for, as the market is still massive (I get about 100 times the downloads for Symbian on Nokia Store, compared with Google Play).
[/quote]

Cool that you can get that many downloads on symbian still!
Just out of curiosity, are you selling it, or is it free/adware? Is it a game or an app?

[quote][quote]
They never really had that large share, if one remember Symbian (which most tend to forget, and I don't blame them)[/quote]Indeed, though not sure why we should forget Symbian - as I say, it's a shame to misrepresent the market. If that's a snarky comment on you not liking the platform, (a) I disagree (I loved Symbian, and competed just as well as Android), (b) personal opinions aren't really an argument for pretending iphone was the biggest. I might as well say that iphone doesn't exist, because I'd rather forget about it.
[/quote]

I'm not saying anything about if you should or not, just that most people tend to do.
Symbian never tried to market their name to end users though, so its not that strange that many forget about it.

I do very much not like it though, something I developed over 5 years of working with them. Not just writing apps, but writing code for the actual OS.
That's one horribly over-engineered and very inefficient system, no matter how much their architects tried to upsell it [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
If one need an example of OOP running amok, Symbian is a good case.

It was obvious to me that they would die, about 4 years ago, a death by legacy, by not beeing able to cope with change, and not being able to support hardware graphics in a sensible way. Their UI framework was absolutely horrible from the inside and out... I've seen way more of the window server from the inside then I would prefer, so I'm not just assuming.

I could probably write a couple of articles about why I think symbian died, it's not only technical reasons, but also how the company itself was organised and owned, but it feels largely irrelevant now.

[quote][quote]Indeed, iOS only really competes in the high end market, If you strip out the lower spec Android phones the race is fairly even.[/quote]I'd be curious to see evidence/stats for this...? The S3 alone is doing pretty well - add in the Note 2, the Nexus, the high end HTCs etc, it's not clear to me that this would be lower than Iphone. Also remember that if you're limiting by spec, you also have to strip out all the Iphone 4 and 4S sales, which still make up a fair proportion of the Iphone figures.
[/quote]

It's not clear to me either who comes out on top, but it should be a pretty tight race if you only look at high end devices over the years.
We're talking about devices that is released as the top end of their product line, so also S2 and iphone 4 is counted.
There is though massive amounts of low end android devices sold, that is now replacing all those symbian and feature phones for the people who couldn't care less what OS their phone has. While those are nice for android, it's likely not the people that will spend much money on apps.

For us, as application developers, what really matters is one thing. "cost to develop" compared to how many are willing to give us money for our work.
The really big problem for android is that cost to develop skyrockets when there is so much fragmentation, and the will to pay is still very much lower then on the app store.

And I mean the problem is android's.
I as an application developer couldn't really care less about who is "on top" right now, any platform choice is a cost/profit calculation and nothing more, and from our perspective (small game makers that make "premium" (non-freetoplay) games), iphone still wins with a large margin.
As a programmer I also like that iPhone is much easier and hassle free to develop for then any other mobile platform I've tried, with excellent tools (in comparison) Edited by Olof Hedman

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mdwh    1108
A few points:

[quote name='Animate2D' timestamp='1352065613' post='4997306']
Apple did not invent. They innovated. Very difficult to truly invent. But much easier to innovate. Which is to take an existing set of ideas and put it together as one, or make an idea, invention, or other innovation better in a unique way.
So the list of innovations for a phone all together as one (just the hardware):
Responsive touch only screen on phone.[/quote]Rather, first with a capacitive screen. Which is worth mentioning - though as someone who's owned resistive and capacitive screens, I'd say having a touchscreen of any kind is the main benefit, and the difference between resistive and capacitive is far smaller (resistive also has some advantages).

[quote]much bigger screen on phone than what was typical at the time[/quote]Screen sizes have been increasing since around 2000, and whilst it may have been much bigger than average of the time, this was true of other phones appearing around then too ("larger than average" is very different to largest, and a much easier "innovation" that many phones will achieve). Whilst we might credit Apple, they're just one of many companies/phones that have been increasing screen sizes. Most notably Samsung, who have been coming out with larger than typical screens from 2007, all up to the present day.

[quote]doing way with the stylus[/quote]No, rather it wasn't possible to use a stylus, so this is just repeating "capacitive screen" again, and I don't see it as a benefit. And indeed, now that companies like Samsung and MS have developed capacitive screens that can use styluses, we are seeing them reappear.

[quote]Full featured browser less flash plugin[/quote]Standard on many smartphones back then, and before.

[quote]Bounce back to provide organic feel for scrolling and other seemly superfluous animations to your most staunch logical techno nerds[/quote]I hate that - when I reach the end, I expect it to stop, not carry on.

[quote]beautiful perhaps overly simplistic UI that required no documentation or guess work to use or figure out[/quote]Never had a problem on feature phones I owned before 2007, nor on phones I had after that.

[quote]This is said from a current android phone user. I give credit where credit is due.[/quote]See this is the thing - whilst there are plenty of minor firsts that one can credit Apple for, the same is true of Google, Nokia, Samsung and so on. If we wrote a list of top 100 phone firsts, sure, Apple would make a few in the list, but you'd also have lots of entries from lots of other companies.

Apple get credit all the time. It's all we hear about, from the media, from Apple fans, and from Android users. I'll credit Apple, the day I hear Apple users credit companies like Nokia, Google and Samsung for all that they did. But, I never ever do ;) Edited by mdwh

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