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Gavin Williams

Microsoft under fire

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Interesting ... Linux is also incompatible with 99% of the software out there, with no good alternative of it's own.

Also I swear to the gods ... Linux programmers have no clue what a wizard is for, or how to implement them!

I only use Linux when it's [b]absolutely[/b] necessary, preferring all my tools and toys that work perfectly well in Win XP.
I do admit I have a Linux emulator ... my Linux box is sitting in the garage, and hasn't been ran in almost 4 years now.

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[quote name='mhagain' timestamp='1352051415' post='4997245']You're missing the core point though, which is that for the vast majority of end-users, OS is irrelevant.[/quote]

Wrong, OS is very relevant, if the OS can't run the user's favorite program then expect that OS to be ditched immediately by said user - which is why Windows managed to keep its supremacy on PCs for so long, almost all PC programs are Windows-only.

It also doesn't help that Linux distros in general have completely sucky drivers - and it takes only one piece of hardware to not work properly for the user to ditch the entire OS. Video hardware? Sound hardware? Wireless network? Webcams? Etc., if it isn't hardware following some standard protocol, you're most likely going to be screwed, with some unusual exceptions (e.g. Nvidia proprietary drivers by general rule performing well).

[quote name='mhagain' timestamp='1352051415' post='4997245']Android is a great example of this. I see figures of something like 500 million devices, but of those, what percentage of users actually bought into it because of a Linux kernel?[/quote]

Again, the kernel is not the OS, and in fact, in the case of Android it doesn't even matter because it's designed in such a way they could ditch Linux and replace it with any other kernel without any trouble. Everything is extremely sandboxed to care.

That said, using Linux [i]did[/i] help Android at some point... I recall how there was this whole hype about Android using free software in an attempt to snatch users from iOS and J2ME phones (and it worked, look where's Android now). The problem though is that of course they never bothered to get their message right so both users and developers were given the thought that nobody should pay for anything on it - which is why even freemium struggles to make money there (at least it makes a lot less than on iOS).

That said, all this discussion aside, I think people stopped whining much about the new UI by this point. The real issue is that they're moving towards a walled garden much like Apple, and while they're leaving the desktop there for now, who knows what will happen to it in the future - especially if they get their way of replacing current PCs with the surface, at least for home use (which would make PCs spike in price if they become something considered only for work, which will only make things worse for those who don't want to be stuck to the walled garden).

It probably doesn't help that users these days think that the walled garden is the only way forwards not just for convenience but also for trust. Not like Linux distros didn't have something to fulfill said task already (repos, anyone?), but still.

Also jeez GDNet, fix your post editor, I keep getting annoyed at how it breaks newlines =/ Edited by Sik_the_hedgehog

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[quote name='Sik_the_hedgehog' timestamp='1352075912' post='4997359']
Wrong, OS is very relevant, if the OS can't run the user's favorite program then expect that OS to be ditched immediately by said user - which is why Windows managed to keep its supremacy on PCs for so long, almost all PC programs are Windows-only.[/quote]
That was his point o.O

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[quote name='Shippou' timestamp='1352071106' post='4997334']
Interesting ... Linux is also incompatible with 99% of the software out there, with no good alternative of it's own.

Also I swear to the gods ... Linux programmers have no clue what a wizard is for, or how to implement them!
[/quote]
If its Windows/Mac only software then yes your going to run into a lot of incompatibility, however I do find that the community does try and do a good job of making either native solutions available (Libreoffice can open and save to just about any Windows word format I've needed) or create work arounds using CrossOver/Wine. However keep in mind looking at it from the other side you will rarely find an application in the Linux community that will not also run on Windows and in many cases Mac, just something to think about.

As for install wizards most distributions have package management systems which do a far better job of taking care of installs in my opinion however compiling from source when such a solution isn't available in the repository's does become a pain sometimes I'll admit.

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[quote name='DavidGArce1337' timestamp='1352070967' post='4997332']
[quote name='Badwolf1' timestamp='1352067107' post='4997314']
Question 1 (Well the second part of it): Because of the open source nature of GNU/Linux all of the good killer apps are ported to other platforms and so you really wont have a big reason in that reguard to switch to linux. Would like to know exactly what nonsense you feel like the Linux community is spreading but in the hope of preventing a war I'll leave it at that.
[/quote]

By the nonsense, I ment to the ones that say that it is better and hate on Windows. Maybe it runs "faster" or hogs less memory. But I already have a 5 year old lappy with 3GBs of RAM running Win7 and tested Win8 on and it runs just fine. But, yes. We should leave it at that.

[quote name='Badwolf1' timestamp='1352067107' post='4997314']
Question 3: Windows 8's rules on the new Windows Store is where Game Development gets impacted most they have it pretty restrictive on what they allow into their store and thats were a lot of the concern for it is. Windows is also the OS of choice for low end computer manufactors so yes its going to get a lot of numbers based on that alone.
[/quote]

What don't they allow on the store that makes it pretty restrictive?

[quote name='Badwolf1' timestamp='1352067107' post='4997314']
If you have no reason to switch and enjoy Microsoft congrats. I sincerely wish you the best of look in the future, but please don't think down on those that use GNU/Linux. I don't down on those that use Windows and Mac.
[/quote]

I don't think down on them. Just the fanatics. I like logic. And I don't see Linux as a viable platform to target for games. And that's the reason I run Windows, first.
I do see an Android type of PC in my future tho, and yes, I know, don't say it. But, it is different and more mainstream! jaja
[/quote]
The fanatics go with everything and I would agree that I'm just as tired of the whole "Mines better and greater then your's" responses as you I am sure are as well. They are unconstructive and just plain wrong in many cases. Yes you can tweak to make it boot faster and run a little faster but you usually can with any operating system if you know what your doing and in general it comes down more to the hardware then it does the operating system itself.

As for the store I'm not aware of the specifics so if someone more well informed then me would please answer this question I was just making a general statement from what I've read from others and the stores policys appear to be a hot topic.

I dont for see Linux itself become a main player without a big corporate backing however I do think operating systems based off Linux/Unix/FreeBSD will become more popular and its not that the OS itself can't be stable enough to be I just think that its more likely to be forked/split into a different project as Google did with Linux or Mac OS X did with FreeBSD. Edited by Badwolf1

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[quote name='mhagain' timestamp='1352051415' post='4997245']
You're missing the core point though, which is that for the vast majority of end-users, [i]OS is irrelevant[/i]. People don't actually care about it, they don't care about whether or not they can study and modify the source code; the one item that the open source communities value the most is something that most people don't actually give a flying one about.

Android is a [i]great[/i] example of this. I see figures of something like 500 million devices, but of those, what percentage of users actually bought into it because of a Linux kernel? I'll give you a hint - it's less than 1. The important criteria for a smart phone are something more like: can it make calls? Can it send SMS? Can it take photos? Can I sync it with my email? Can I browse the web on it? Can I play Angry Birds on it? Answer "yes" to those and it doesn't matter if it runs on Unix, Windows or magic jellybeans - you've got a sale.

Android is not a victory for Unix; it's a victory for the applications and services provided by the platform, and if they weren't there it would have crashed and burned. None of this is about Unix versus Windows versus iOS versus whatever tomorrow's flavour of the month is; it's all about the applications and services you give to the user, and those run on the OS, they are not the OS itself.[/quote]Let me get this straight. So android isnt a "victory" for unix, everything that runs on ARM devices either, top 500 computers either, then what on Earth would you consider a "victory" for an OS? By your own terms, no OS is successful because no one cares about OSes, not Windows, nor iOS, nor anything.

A victory for an OS is to be the preferred platform to use when developing something, because that is what it is, a platform, what makes the hardware usable. And if being everywhere and used by everyone on every kind of hardware isn't a "victory", then what you would consider a victory? I just don't get it. What makes other OS for you more successful if you stated that OSes don't matter for the user?

You seem to dismiss everything on the basis that "no one cares", but that way it would be the same if we talked about Windows, Linux, Darwin, OS/2 or whatever thing out there that the end user doesn't sees directly. And if you're measuring success on a field where every single thing fails, maybe you should consider another field for comparison altogether.

Unless that is you wan't OS developers try to make the end user care about their OS that is... Edited by TheChubu

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End-users [i]don't[/i] care about their OS though - that [i]is[/i] the thing. They care about what the OS lets them do, but the OS itself and as an OS - nope.

That makes Android a successful implementation of a modified Linux kernel with a decidedly non-Unixy front-end on it, but it shouldn't be read as being successful [i]because[/i] it's Unix; it's successful because that non-Unixy front-end lets them do the smartphone-type stuff they want to do, and because Google did an awesome job of marketing it.

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[quote name='TheChubu' timestamp='1352087428' post='4997426']
[quote name='mhagain' timestamp='1352051415' post='4997245']
You're missing the core point though, which is that for the vast majority of end-users, [i]OS is irrelevant[/i]. People don't actually care about it, they don't care about whether or not they can study and modify the source code; the one item that the open source communities value the most is something that most people don't actually give a flying one about.

Android is a [i]great[/i] example of this. I see figures of something like 500 million devices, but of those, what percentage of users actually bought into it because of a Linux kernel? I'll give you a hint - it's less than 1. The important criteria for a smart phone are something more like: can it make calls? Can it send SMS? Can it take photos? Can I sync it with my email? Can I browse the web on it? Can I play Angry Birds on it? Answer "yes" to those and it doesn't matter if it runs on Unix, Windows or magic jellybeans - you've got a sale.

Android is not a victory for Unix; it's a victory for the applications and services provided by the platform, and if they weren't there it would have crashed and burned. None of this is about Unix versus Windows versus iOS versus whatever tomorrow's flavour of the month is; it's all about the applications and services you give to the user, and those run on the OS, they are not the OS itself.[/quote]Let me get this straight. So android isnt a "victory" for unix, everything that runs on ARM devices either, top 500 computers either, then what on Earth would you consider a "victory" for an OS? By your own terms, no OS is successful because no one cares about OSes, not Windows, nor iOS, nor anything.
[/quote]

Well, the kernel might be a modified version of the Linux kernel but nothing that is [b]visible to the end user[/b] has anything to do with Linux. You got a useful UI in Android where you can do everything you need the O/S to do which is exactly the opposite of most, if not all, Linux distributions.

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[quote name='SymLinked' timestamp='1352125318' post='4997576']Well, the kernel might be a modified version of the Linux kernel but nothing that is [b]visible to the end user[/b] has anything to do with Linux. You got a useful UI in Android where you can do everything you need the O/S to do which is exactly the opposite of most, if not all, Linux distributions.[/quote]I know, I'm not saying that the user cares or should care. All I am saying is why measure the success of something by saying "x group doesnt cares about y, thus is a fail" when the "x group" arent't the ones supposed to care?

You should measure OS success by asking about the people who actually deals with the OS. Hardware manufacturers, device designers, driver developers, etc. It shouldn't be surprising that Linux (or any other OS) "fails" to matter when its put against the end user, which is exactly the group of people who shouldn't care about that stuff.

The user doesn't cares about Linux. Yeah. So what its the point of that? Why is that considered a "fail" for Linux? The end user doesn't develops on top of Linux so why they should care anyway? It's a void statement. Like saying that cars fail because they can't fly. Well, they never were intended to fly in the first place, it may be an awful plane but it's a good car nevertheless. Edited by TheChubu

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I think you're showing some binary thinking there - it's not a success for Linux qua Linux (by which I mean the common understanding of "GNU/Linux" the OS), but that doesn't automatically make it a fail either. What it definitely is however is a great example of one potential way forward - take the solid underpinnings and put something on top of them that actually is important and attractive to end users. So it's some kind of weird netherworld which is neither success nor failure, nor any point inbetween really - you don't see Android users going around using vi to edit .conf files, or fighting over which is better: KDE or Gnome, so they are not Linux users in the traditional sense but they are most definitely using the Linux kernel, even if they may not know it nor care about it.

It's clear that there are two different markets being discussed here; one is the Android market where we do have a successful implementation of the kernel + a new front-end, the other is the trad desktop market where by all standard criteria Linux can be said to have failed (although whether the kind of success this is measured by was ever an objective is another matter entirely).

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These types of threads amuse me; people cheering the 'death' of microsoft and the rise of other platforms.... or as I like to think of it 'lolol fragmentation' because that's what you are looking at here.

And the amount of work and debugging which goes with it.

This is both desktop and mobile space too; Android devices of varying quality and spec seem to be vomited out at every turn and Apple seem to push hardware 'forward' at a faster rate (two iPads in a year, iPad mini and iPhone 5) with varying quality of OS updates to go with it.

At times my head hurts at the prospect of creating a renderer for 6 fixed hardware devices and iOS - god alone knows how this fragmentation is going to effect things.

I'm starting to think this is going to cause a slow down in the software industry more than anything and we'll end up replacing MS with Valve, Epic and Unity Technology being the only way independant developers can afford to push forward.

Competition might be good but mass fragmentation of the market certainly isn't...

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[quote name='mhagain' timestamp='1352163060' post='4997819']
I think you're showing some binary thinking there - it's not a success for Linux qua Linux (by which I mean the common understanding of "GNU/Linux" the OS), but that doesn't automatically make it a fail either. What it definitely is however is a great example of one potential way forward - take the solid underpinnings and put something on top of them that actually is important and attractive to end users. So it's some kind of weird netherworld which is neither success nor failure, nor any point inbetween really - you don't see Android users going around using vi to edit .conf files, or fighting over which is better: KDE or Gnome, so they are not Linux users in the traditional sense but they are most definitely using the Linux kernel, even if they may not know it nor care about it.

It's clear that there are two different markets being discussed here; one is the Android market where we do have a successful implementation of the kernel + a new front-end, the other is the trad desktop market where by all standard criteria Linux can be said to have failed (although whether the kind of success this is measured by was ever an objective is another matter entirely).
[/quote]Hm... Fair enough. Though in my view, the fact that Android users aren't messing around with .conf files is a good thing, since what is a Linux user shouldn't be defined by how much you have to twist the OS it to make it work (as long as you're free to do so if you want of course). Besides, while Android is pretty popular, and the PC Linux power user may be the "traditional user", there are a LOT of less popularized uses for Linux kernel, specially since its the OS of choice to run ARM stuff on (and I'm not talking about smartphones). The idea that a Linux user should be a living xorg.conf parser for him to be a "real" Linux user is pretty silly.
[quote name='MA-Simon' timestamp='1352184641' post='4997903']
Steam is supposedly working on their own linux-game-platform-computer-thingy, no?
[/quote]Yep. Its going to be released along Half Life 3.
[spoiler]Joke of course :P[/spoiler] Edited by TheChubu

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Well, editing .conf files was just an example off the top of my head to illustrate a point, and was not intended to be taken so literally.

I'm actually quite excited by Valve's Linux plans myself, and wish them huge luck with it all, even though it's of no personal relevance to me. Antipathy to a platform should not be confused with opposition to it, I guess.

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[quote name='TheChubu' timestamp='1352343857' post='4998718']
[quote name='MA-Simon' timestamp='1352184641' post='4997903']
Steam is supposedly working on their own linux-game-platform-computer-thingy, no?
[/quote]Yep. Its going to be released along Half Life 3.
[spoiler]Joke of course [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img][/spoiler]
[/quote]
I'm going to laugh if this happens for real.

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[quote name='MA-Simon' timestamp='1352184641' post='4997903']
Steam is supposedly working on their own linux-game-platform-computer-thingy, no?
[/quote]
To set this straight, no, not a computer-thingy.

Valve has a Linux version of Steam and they're porting a large number of AAA titles, treating GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android/Linux) as a primary target platform. EA is also doing the same. Unity3D is now supporting GNU/Linux as a first-class target platform. These three cornerstone companies on the gaming world are getting full technical support from people like Canonical (the corporate backer of the Ubuntu distribution), who is working with the likes of nVidia to get the video drivers fixed appropriately.

I met with engineers from Valve and Unity3D last week to discuss what's necessary for Ubuntu. It's real.

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So sad. Thingies are awesome. [quote name='Sik_the_hedgehog' timestamp='1352475870' post='4999321']
I'm going to laugh if this happens for real.
[/quote] Was gonna say Duke Nukem Forever, but that joke died along "Can it run Crysis?" [quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1352479134' post='4999339'] Valve has a Linux version of Steam and they're porting a large number of AAA titles, treating GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android/Linux) as a primary target platform. EA is also doing the same. [/quote]Wasn't that whole "EA supporting Linux gaming" just a bunch of web based games ? Edited by TheChubu

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Yes, played Serious Sam3 yesterday on Ubuntu, as I'm a beta tester. I also have fortress to test later.

Many years ago, I had to follow a M$ Office course and since I'm saturated for life with proprietary OS.- I've only installed osx86 from the other patent troll but it's
much less fun than Linux.

TheCubu, you can run almost anything with Wine. Currently I run perfectly Rage with Wine 1.4 on Ubuntu 12.10.

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[quote name='abcdef44' timestamp='1352618530' post='4999838']
TheCubu, you can run almost anything with Wine. Currently I run perfectly Rage with Wine 1.4 on Ubuntu 12.10.
[/quote]
I'd say the problem isn't whether it works or not (DRM aside), but performance. Wine likes to run very slow here. Granted, before certain update it was double as slow, but it's still pretty slow for me, even for some of the simplest programs.

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No, Rage runs as fast and even FSX was only a little slower in a test some months ago with a GTX 460.

[url="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_1210beta_desktops&num=1"]http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_1210beta_desktops&num=1[/url] Edited by abcdef44

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[quote name='abcdef44' timestamp='1352650646' post='4999940']
So you must be doing something wrong. False drivers etc. Wine is definitely NOT slow at all!
[/quote]
I definitely wouldn't make that accusation. Wine can be very sporadic. A lot of games work fine, but it's fairly bold to assume that Wine works perfectly under all scenarios and that he is doing something wrong.

If wine were never slow at all, [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23802"]why[/url] [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30655"]would[/url] [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22136"]they[/url] [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24505"]have[/url] [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13685"]any[/url] [url="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18232"]bugs[/url]? Edited by way2lazy2care

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[quote name='abcdef44' timestamp='1352618530' post='4999838']TheCubu, you can run almost anything with Wine. Currently I run perfectly Rage with Wine 1.4 on Ubuntu 12.10.[/quote]I know. To me Wine isn't a solution. It's just bending over backwards to please developers (or more specifically, publishers who won't invest in other platforms).

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