Hey,
This is a followup to my post about ship designs.
I'm currently designing a form of 4X game, and I wanted to capture a bit more about the reality of space travel.
One element that struck me as under-utilized was the capability (or inability) to communicate with the rest of the fleet/empire.
Most games assume that you can communicate with ships lightyears away in realtime.
I'm trying to come up with ideas on how to avoid that.
The best idea that I have right now is a bit dull: planets have a range at which they can communicate with ships, allowing the player to micromanage these ships as they see fit.
Any ship beyond that ranges becomes invisible and is controlled by an AI, following the mission it was designed for.
Optionally, it may send reports, from time to time, about its position and status, but these would be dated, thus the player would be faced with limited information.
Pros:
- It puts into play communication ranges as something you may want to improve
- It emphasizes mission-based actions to be precise
- It emphasizes a good AI, which in turn may reduce micro-management of the fleet: set orders, let them disappear, and trust they'll be back with good news.
Cons:
- It doesn't feel very '4x'
- AI quirks will really annoy players
- It may feel like a feature that's added for no real reason except to attempt something new. This may be a barrier for entry to the genre without actually being especially fun (I would need to prototype). Its also a feature that could be game-defining and turn off a lot of people.
I was wondering whether you thought it could be a decent idea, or if you had better suggestions on how to implement communications as an important factor of gameplay (on par with, say, sensor range).
4X game: Communication ranges
My impression is that in a game based upon complete control that directly affecting the ability of the player to control their units is dangerous territory. I think having ships completely on their own would not be optimal.Sending ships beyond direct control might work for simple exploration vessels, where all you really need is the ability to set waypoints (Go to System A, then B, then C, then home), but I don't think you'd ever send anything else out without it being in comm range. Even if you could found a colony beyond your immediate communications range I think unless there's incredibly simplified colony management that it would always be advantageous to put them in range so you could manually manage them. Same with fleets. It's simply too advantageous unless the game is absurdly simple, to maintain complete control of your fleet.
One idea is to simply limit how many orders per period of time you can give a ship, dependent on distance. 3 light years, you can order at will, at 6, 4 interactions per minute, and at 10, 1 interaction per minute. You could also limit that to every X turns or X every turn.
Master of Orion 2 went a different direction and basically charged the player money for having more ships than colonies and star bases based on some formula I don't remember, so instead of cutting control, it made it a direct cost.
EDIT: Formatting
One idea is to simply limit how many orders per period of time you can give a ship, dependent on distance. 3 light years, you can order at will, at 6, 4 interactions per minute, and at 10, 1 interaction per minute. You could also limit that to every X turns or X every turn.
Master of Orion 2 went a different direction and basically charged the player money for having more ships than colonies and star bases based on some formula I don't remember, so instead of cutting control, it made it a direct cost.
EDIT: Formatting
In my opinion it's not very fun.
Also, what about planets? If there is a communication range for ships shouldn't there be one for planets as well? This would mean the colonies farther from the capital should be AI controlled as well... It all sounds very messy and complicated.
Also, what about planets? If there is a communication range for ships shouldn't there be one for planets as well? This would mean the colonies farther from the capital should be AI controlled as well... It all sounds very messy and complicated.
I would have 2 things:
-Communication range (need powerful tech for signal not to weaken or get corrupted)
eg. small ships cant go wander too far or you lose control and cant get them back until they return themselves
-Delay communication (So an attack order to a far fleet will take time to get there) for this a command ship would be good, which represents you. Risking yourself makes you able to use better strategies in battle and quickly change them.
-Communication range (need powerful tech for signal not to weaken or get corrupted)
eg. small ships cant go wander too far or you lose control and cant get them back until they return themselves
-Delay communication (So an attack order to a far fleet will take time to get there) for this a command ship would be good, which represents you. Risking yourself makes you able to use better strategies in battle and quickly change them.
Author
One idea is to simply limit how many orders per period of time you can give a ship, dependent on distance. 3 light years, you can order at will, at 6, 4 interactions per minute, and at 10, 1 interaction per minute. You could also limit that to every X turns or X every turn.
Not a bad idea, but then again, I feel it has the same drawbacks as my original idea: it feels like its just there 'cause I wanted to do something about communication, but its not all that organic and it isn't fun to manage. Also its not that straightforward either.
Alternatively, I thought about disallowing ship movement out of the comm range, which would emphasize the need to through satellites around planets you haven't colonized just to extend that range. Of course, when the comm link is severed (satellite destroyed for example), your fleet would be on its own, trying to get back, and defending itself.
I wonder if that would hose strategies where a player want to colonize distant planets and work from multiple bases...
Also, what about planets?
An interesting question. My original idea was that the planets were the "emitter" of the signal (that which the player always controls) and the ships were the receiver. For player to have control over a ship, he would only need the planetary comm range to touch with the ship's comm range (meaning they have a connection). This would've encouraged building new colonies. Of course, this was an abstract concept.
If the empire is built around one specific planet, then it would be pretty hard to extend the network to colonies and so on.
This would mean the colonies farther from the capital should be AI controlled as well... It all sounds very messy and complicated.
Then again, it would be more realistic (you can't control Earth and Mars on your own afterall) but I agree that it wouldn't necessarily be fun, and could easily snowball into something that's plain ridiculous to play.
-Delay communication (So an attack order to a far fleet will take time to get there) for this a command ship would be good, which represents you. Risking yourself makes you able to use better strategies in battle and quickly change them.
I'd like to toy with this idea: larger ships being "command ships" or having a "command tag" which means they are autonomous, so that the player would have the ability to throw fleet wherever they want so long as they built these expensive ships. Its realistic to believe a fighter wing wouldn't be autonomous, but a large battleship probably should. It would probably need an "officer" subsystem though, otherwise player would just spam these larger ships and ignore the smaller. If instead of ship size or class, it was all about whether or not your carried an officer on board, it would be simple resource management: hop in an officer on ship X and ship X is considered a capital ship.
Once again though, if the officer dies, the other ships would get stranded and seek home?
You could also require satellites or a continuous "communication chain" to get accurate informqtion about seen enemy stuff (healths, position, velocity, type...)
If you dont, you would get the data later and it wouldnt be up to date and might not be as detailed.
If you dont, you would get the data later and it wouldnt be up to date and might not be as detailed.
Author
I guess that would far more under the sensor/scanner role (which is a component which I've already established for the game concept).
The idea is that hailing them through a microphone won't give you these informations per se, but I see your point that reporting back to H.Q. findings would make sense. Essentially, sensors would be useless when out of comm range.
I thought of that initially, but it felt as though comm didn't have a use of its own, just another restriction.
The idea is that hailing them through a microphone won't give you these informations per se, but I see your point that reporting back to H.Q. findings would make sense. Essentially, sensors would be useless when out of comm range.
I thought of that initially, but it felt as though comm didn't have a use of its own, just another restriction.
If you really want to go that route, make ALL ships/planets AI controled regardless of range (it's a waste of dev resources to make a feature "controlling a planet/ship by the player" that is not used by the player (I think majority of planets/ships would be AI controlled at later stages of the game)). It would be more logical and consistent. You are an emperor, you sit on your imperial planet and issue decrees and appoint admirals and governors. Then these AI admirals lead fleets (according to the "mission" you gave them) and governors manage planets (taking bribes and being mostly incompetent which makes your primary task finding out which one cheats and should be executed). The player can not manage fleets and planets on his own, never (this way it let you not make this feature and let you implement these fleet planets stuff very minimalistiuc and cheap 
). You could then add range as an efficiency penalty (like corruption in Civilization 1-3).
My advice would be go all the way or not go at all. Going half way is almost always a bad idea.
). You could then add range as an efficiency penalty (like corruption in Civilization 1-3).My advice would be go all the way or not go at all. Going half way is almost always a bad idea.
Author
Ya, I used that in a previous project, and it felt a bit weird. It works for games like the Majesty series, but not so much for 4X space games imo.
Hello,
I've never played 4x before, so maybe I'm not the best judge, but I think the limited comm-speed could work very well. One or more point(s) of reference could be controlled directly by the player, whereas everything else would run on AI and take only orders from the player. The question would be, where the point(s) of reference should be located. I'd like to see you taking your officer-system a step further and have the player control just the one "in charge". It wouldn't be gameover if that person dies since the player would just gain control of the one that comes next in rank (maybe he can even make the character resign to change the person he's controlling. However, the information that a new guy is in charge would also be limited to the speed of light, making this distinctly different from controlling everyone at once). If you wanted to have another ship/planet as the point of reference, you'd have to move the character there.
The general idea here is that you change the player's role from "controlling the system" to "controlling the most powerful one in the system", which is a definitely weaker role and provides another kind of challenge to the player.
Also, if you decide the to implement the comm-speed in any somewhat important way, I would suggest having a (toggleable) representation of where the data is on the map (only the ones sent by him, he can't know there's data on the way in his direction). This will make planning easier for the player, and explains exactly why his commands are not instantaneous, thus greatly reducing the
"feels like its just there 'cause I wanted to do something about communication".
bw,
Tobl
PS: If the above was just the description of an existing game, please point me to it, I'd really like to try this out.
I've never played 4x before, so maybe I'm not the best judge, but I think the limited comm-speed could work very well. One or more point(s) of reference could be controlled directly by the player, whereas everything else would run on AI and take only orders from the player. The question would be, where the point(s) of reference should be located. I'd like to see you taking your officer-system a step further and have the player control just the one "in charge". It wouldn't be gameover if that person dies since the player would just gain control of the one that comes next in rank (maybe he can even make the character resign to change the person he's controlling. However, the information that a new guy is in charge would also be limited to the speed of light, making this distinctly different from controlling everyone at once). If you wanted to have another ship/planet as the point of reference, you'd have to move the character there.
The general idea here is that you change the player's role from "controlling the system" to "controlling the most powerful one in the system", which is a definitely weaker role and provides another kind of challenge to the player.
Also, if you decide the to implement the comm-speed in any somewhat important way, I would suggest having a (toggleable) representation of where the data is on the map (only the ones sent by him, he can't know there's data on the way in his direction). This will make planning easier for the player, and explains exactly why his commands are not instantaneous, thus greatly reducing the
"feels like its just there 'cause I wanted to do something about communication".
bw,
Tobl
PS: If the above was just the description of an existing game, please point me to it, I'd really like to try this out.
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