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suliman

Guns in gangs/urban tactical wargame

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Hi

Im designing a tactical wargame set in present US. Society has more or less fallen and gangs battle the police and the military on the streets. My gun lineup is a mix of military and stolen (civilian) weapons. Both what soldiers/cops carry and what can bought on the black market.

Plz comment on the list so far. Ive for gameplay reasons divided the guns in 3 "quality/usefulness"-classes from left to right. What should be added/taken away? Should guns be moved to another quality-class?

Thanks!
Erik


[CODE]PISTOL-----------------------------------------------
Lorcin 380 1911 Beretta 92fs
Bersa Thunder Glock 17 HK USP
Raven Vest Br HiPower Desert Eagle
HiPoint SigSaur P228

REVOLVER-----------------------------------------------
M1917 Colt detective Taurus raging bull
SW J-frame SW model 500

MACHINEPISTOLS-----------------------------------------
Mac-10 Micro UZI Steyr TMP
TEC-9 Scorpion HK MP7

SMG-----------------------------------------------------
AKS-74U MP5 HK UMP45
Beretta m12 UZI P90
Grease gun

SHOTGUNS------------------------------------------------
Sawnoff Remington 870 Benelli m4
Double-barrered Street sweeper SPAS-12
Mossberg 500 Ithaca stakeout AA-12

ASSAULT RIFLES------------------------------------------
Galil AR-15 M4 carbine
Ruger AC556 AKM HK 416
Valmet m62 Famas HK G36
FN SCAR-L

BATTLE RIFLES-------------------------------------------
M1 Garand M14
G3A3
FN FAL

RIFLES--------------------------------------------------
SKS Weatherby M24 sniper
Lee Enfield Winchester 70 Dragunov SVD
Ruger mini-14

MACHINEGUNS---------------------------------------------
RPD M249 SAW
BAR PKM
m60

[/CODE] Edited by suliman

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This is almost certainly detailed enough for a first bash -- you risk adding too much differentiation.

In most combat scenarios, the models of guns involved aren't actually that important. The class is (pistol/shotty/rifle etc), and whether they're auto, semi, double/single action etc.

A much more important factor in combat like this is the user's proficiency with the weapons they have. Gangers are likely to have had lot less training with any weapon; soldiers may not have as much experience with pistols as with rifles, police officers qualify regularly with their service pistols, but would probably have as much experience with an M249 as the gangers.

It's that proficiency which determines the ability to hit things with the guns much more than any differences between the weapons. Certainly in urban combat, a pistol is useful out to (say) 40-50yards, and there's very little functional difference between the types -- the training to be able to fire it accurately on a fast-moving intermittently visible target is way more useful.

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I think it would probably be a good idea to basically at least halve the variety, that list is far more extensive than any game I can think of. A lot of the guns you have are so functionally similar that it would essentially be a waste of resources to add them. It would make more sense to me to cut the number of base models to maybe 2-3 per class, but have a couple versions of each gun, like Glock 17 and Glock 17 + Laser, or any of the rifles with iron sights vs with a scope.

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[quote name='Katie' timestamp='1353160703' post='5001756']Gangers are likely to have had lot less training with any weapon;
[/quote] Typical LA gang warfare scenario:

Gang member shoots at another; misses; hits a guy 2 blocks away in his house while sitting on the toilet. :)

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Also important would be to have different melee weapons ( Lead pipe vs. combat knife vs. night stick ), flashbang vs. hand grenade vs. molotov/improvised explosive, etc.

Also, different group strategies. Maybe soldiers can issue commands and other soldiers will gain an increase in skills when following that command because of their training, or gang members gain melee attack bonus when multiple members have equipped melee weapons (think of a gang beatdown).

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Agreed completely, training accounts for everything.

I'd be surprised if a group of 15-20 modern, well trained soldiers couldn't defeat a group of typical gang thugs in a firefight even with being outnumbered 20 times over. You're talking about two whole different grades of fighter: one that is able to deliberately execute actions, and another that might hit a well concealed target pretty much out of dumb luck. Unless your player always plays as the soldiers, or you place your game in an imaginary setting where the skill gap isn't quite so enormous between these two groups, it's going to be a very frustrating experience.

Not even counting that soldiers tend to know not to fight where they can't win, have a whole lot better tech [even something as simple as night visiion], and also tend to be heavily armored. Modern body armor makes getting shot feel a lot more like getting punched, provided it hits the armor.

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[quote name='suliman' timestamp='1353143928' post='5001720']
What should be added/taken away? Should guns be moved to another quality-class?[/quote]Those things would depend entirely on what your design needs.

- Do you want all guns to be meaningfully different in function?
- Do you want realistic gun stats? (note: if you want both this and the above, you'll have very few guns in the game)
- Are you going to have bullets penetrating cover or not?
- Roughly how much shooting do you expect to happen at different distances?

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The variety is mostly for flavor. Guns within the same class will mostly differ between quality class. Within the same class only minor differences as clip size, sound and maybe small tweaks to dam, accuracy, risk of jam etc. I agree there is a risk to add too much guns as this might just be confusing.

I will probably have differences in damage for example that is more for gameplay balance than realism.

I would want to have different ranges. Its not in any way a realistic "cops vs gangbangers" simulation. Cops/army will consist of a variety of bandits and mercenaries too (as do the criminal factions). Its not proper professionals vs punks.

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Hi,

In a real life collapse of the USA, there would no doubt be many more types of guns than that on your block! [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.png[/img]

As a 3D artist, I want to let you know that the large list which you have has to be combined with existing plans for other art assets and many unexpected delays in both art and coding. The guns themselves to do nice work will require a major effort in art and coding.

I just want you to know. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]


Clinton

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[quote name='Daaark' timestamp='1353368717' post='5002499']
[quote name='Katie' timestamp='1353160703' post='5001756']Gangers are likely to have had lot less training with any weapon;
[/quote] Typical LA gang warfare scenario:

Gang member shoots at another; misses; hits a guy 2 blocks away in his house while sitting on the toilet. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[/quote]

So true! LOL


Clinton

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there is almost no art or coding for adding another weapons (system done already and only topdown 2d graphics) so this is not a problem.

But of course all guns should have a point in the game so this is what matters. I will probably reduce a little bit but keep some guns for flavor and small tactical differences.

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Just a nitpick, but Valmet m62's quality class is wrong. The Valmets (m62, m95) are exceptional assault rifles, and pretty much the best AK type rifles ever made. Their biggest fault was that they cost so much to manufacture.

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[quote name='suliman' timestamp='1354448232' post='5006261']
ok thanks
the valmet will probably not make the cut however.
[/quote]Nitpick no. 2: the Galil, based on the Valmet design, is just about the second best AK so I wouldn't put it in the worst category either. If you want a low quality AK represented at the low tier, MAK90, WASR-10 and the like would be more suitable.

Realistically pretty much any rifle hits quite well at low to mid distances, say up to 100m, so you'll have to exaggerate the hell out of their differences if you want meaningful in-game differentiation. In reality the type and quality of sights is much more important than the rifle's accuracy. A red dot or holographic sight is easy and fast to use, and a regular scope is also easier than iron sights. This is even more important for a poorly trained shooter. Also, a scope with high minimum magnification (say 3-9x) is not all good - the shorter the distance, the more awkward it is and the more it slows you down.

Just some stuff you might be able to use.

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