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RLS0812

US Government Will Never Fix It's Financial Problems

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1354065465' post='5004775']
That said, I don't really buy his story about someone on food stamps buying $400 of groceries and loading it into a $65k car. It smacks of bullshit. Either that, or that particular person was scamming the system. Either way, it's not a good argument against people who genuinely need help.
[/quote]
It's not that unrealistic. I'd see probably ~1 person/day do similar things while I worked at target. It's definitely the exception, but it's definitely not so much the exception that I'd call it uncommon. The thing that bugs me most is how many people are against action that prevents abuse. I'm more upset with those activists than the people gaming the system. The people buying junk food with food stamps make me more sad than angry.

[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1354067230' post='5004778']
(For the record I also believe that things such as power, water, utilities and public transport, to name a few, should not be run by 'for profit' companies because frankly that hasn't work
[/quote]
It depends. There are a lot of very successful public works run by for profit companies that do a lot better than their previous counterparts. There are a lot of ones that went wrong, but I don't think as large a percent are failures as you think. A large problem is that the successes are generally silent and the failures are catastrophically bad.

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='Shippou' timestamp='1354054656' post='5004702']
The economy is very bad right now in terms of "entry level positions", however kids are still signing up for college / vocational courses that will not net them a job.
I have technical certifications out the ###, yet I am lucky to work 4 mouths out of the year.

The problem I have with lazy folks, who love to leach off the system. Many times I am sitting in line at a grocery store, buying the cheapest items I can find, while I see folks all over buying the best name brand items, and paying for it with a food stamp card.
Last week I watched a lady buy over $400 USD worth of groceries, all on her food card, and when I went out to the parking lot, she was loading the food into her almost new Mercedes e250, worth about $65,000 USD ... for comparison I drive a 2003 Kia Spectra, worth about $550 USD .

Why does my tax money get wasted on folks like that - even the lazy #### who buy tons of soda-pop and junk food "on the card" #### me off to no end.
[/quote]

So you saw one person who may have been (perhaps was very likely to have been) scamming the system, and now everyone's a welfare queen? That's an absurd way to conceptualize a problem (poverty) that I think you would probably admit exists, your stated experience notwithstanding.

The government can't keep out all scammers, nor can they control what food stamp recipients buy all that precisely. Even if it could do the latter, I doubt you'd be less than outraged about it.

I see people who are scamming welfare/WIC every day at my job. Of those, the vast majority are in fact lazy, and are pulling tiny cons for the saddest gains imaginable. The rest are very competent, and could probably do quite well if they expended the same amount of effort on something productive. But vastly outnumbering both of these groups combined are the people who would not be able to contribute to or interact with the economy without some form of assistance for some period of time.

If the idea is that any economic activity which has inefficiencies should be [i]abolished[/i], then we aren't going to have any economic activities at all beyond subsistence farming.

[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1354051789' post='5004681']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354049837' post='5004668']
Just who do you think owns the debt this topic was originally about?
[/quote]

That was kinda my point.
[/quote]

The majority of US debt is owned by the US. China owns ~8% of it.

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ChaosEngine    5185
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1354070218' post='5004797']
The majority of US debt is owned by the US. China owns ~8% of it.
[/quote]

True, but 8% is still a lot (more that $1trillion in this case). Not to mention that 47% of the debt is owned by foreign investors.

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tstrimp    1798
[quote name='phantom' timestamp='1354067230' post='5004778']
So yes, we need to clamp down on those 'playing' the system as well as fix the social problems which have caused an upswing in the problem (because 'laziness' is a poor reason and often for a significant proportion of people there is going to be other reasons why they don't want to work) in recent decades.[/quote]

We do need to clamp down on them. Not because they are a significant drain on society (they are just a drop in a very large bucket), but because they give others an excuse to accuse all poor people of being lazy. I do think those who are determined to get out of poverty [b]can[/b] get out of poverty. There are tons of success stories around, and people love to blame those on luck but at Thomas Jefferson said, [i]"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." [/i]

[quote]Of course the whole 'look after those less well off, let the system help people' is a very European view to hold so I don't expect it to play well with people in the US (I got into an argument on IRC once with someone from the US whos basic position was "everyone for themselves; if someone cant look after themselves then fuck 'em").[/quote]

I can understand the sentiment. I know plenty of people who work much harder than average and do not see a significantly better quality of life and they see people who barely work and are doing just fine. I have tried to explain that simply working harder at what you're doing isn't enough. If you're trying to improve your lot in life, you've got to work on developing skills that are in demand and are scarce. Some people for some reason have decided that they can only do what they are doing, while others I have met have dropped everything to make dramatic changes in career. A couple weeks ago at a Startup Weekend, I met two guys who decided to quit their jobs and create a startup even though they knew nothing about software development. Obviously not everyone can just drop everything, but there is a happy medium here where you can develop new skills on the side, and not just sink 80 hours of your life a week into a job that makes you miserable.

[quote](For the record I also believe that things such as power, water, utilities and public transport, to name a few, should not be run by 'for profit' companies because frankly that hasn't work and was just a really dumb idea resulting in price fixing, poor service and a lack of competition it was meant to foster such as in the UK's rail networks.
[/quote]

Maybe... those things haven't really been left to the free market in the US. Most of them are government sponsored monopolies which combine the worst parts of government and private industry. The problem with nationalizing things like this is there is very little faith in the government to do anything well. There has to be a way to keep the profit motive which can encourage lean and efficient with consumer protection built in.

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1354072403' post='5004811']
True, but 8% is still a lot (more that $1trillion in this case). Not to mention that 47% of the debt is owned by foreign investors.
[/quote]

I'd read that ~66% of US debt is held by the US government or citizens, which would be less dire. Regardless, the distribution of sovereign debt ownership isn't important in the "they own us" sense unless one specific group has a massive share. 47% owned by non-US entities isn't remotely the same as X% owned by China, which at 8% is the largest single foreign holder.

It's not insignificant, but I think that concern about who owns the debt is overblown.

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3Ddreamer    3826
[size=5][sub]Here is another "bomb shell" of reality from me to everybody:[/sub]

[sub]The combined vote of everybody is dominated by how people vote with their money! This is why the leadership of corporations is more powerful than all governments combined and the world is still getting worse. When will people begin to realize the power of how they "vote" with their money?[/sub]

[sub]In a related issue, a court ruling by the United States Supreme court lifted the limits on campaign contributions a couple years ago, resulting in the record for campaign contributions by corporations exceeding previous records by a wide increase.[/sub]

[sub][u]How corporations vote with their money in local, state, and national campaign contributions causes politicians to seek the money instead of the will of the people! Added to this tragedy is that individuals undermine their own vote by how they spend their money![/u][/sub][/size]

[size=5][sub]Clinton[/sub][/size]

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Promit    13246
Well, I'm convinced of one thing: Under no circumstances should any member of GameDev be allowed to wield any position of government or economic authority.

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HostileExpanse    120
Job training and small business investment will minimize the unemployment problem ....

Reducing unemployment to the 4-5% area closes half of the deficits by itself, with no need to change any tax rates.

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Jacob Jingle    226
[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1353956601' post='5004271']
Exactly - as politically incorrect as it is, history shows that people are generally evil[/quote]
So you think the problem will get better if we consolidate power into fewer hands? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[quote name='Servant of the Lord' timestamp='1353956601' post='5004271']
The stock market is a great example of this: It's a race to see who can 'play' the stocks enough to get rich quick at the expense of everyone else playing the stock market. Admittingly without having much experience in it, it seems to me that most the stock-market laws are designed to keep people from 'cheating' at a system that is built entirely around stealing from each other.[/quote]
Yeah, I remember when a guy called Bill Gates stuck a gun in my face and forced me to buy shares in his worthless company in the 80's. From the looks of that gangster, he probably used my money to buy worthless stuff that had nothing to do with his small business and the company probably folded in a week...

When are people going to stop with this zero-sum game garbage?

*Buffett(The King of Crony Capitalism) really isn't the best person to cite as the gold standard. He's a good example of what happens when you give all the power and money to a few.

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mdwh    1108
[quote name='Shippou' timestamp='1354037360' post='5004578']
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1354033394' post='5004552']
@JTippetts: Wait - are you actually comparing Obama/Democrats to communism? That's not at all the same thing. Both US parties are predominantly capitalist, though both with support for some state funded and managed parts of the economy (Republicans still support state managed child education for example, and try arguing against their state funded/managed military...) Democrat are more "left wing", offering better support for things like welfare and state healthcare, but neither are remotely anything to do with communism.
[/quote]
Communism / Socialism [b]( [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism"]almost the same thing[/url] )[/b] is one of the core "values" of the Democratic Party.[/quote]No, it isn't.

[quote]I would suggest actually researching Marxism / Socialism, and stop assuming they have nothing to do with "left wing" politics .[/quote]I never said that. Obviously communism is an extreme form of left wing, but that doesn't mean that any support for "left wing" policies means you're a communist society (or party). As I say, the Republicans support state funded/managed things (like the military) too. And please, let's drop the "I would suggest actually researching" talk as if you're assuming you're right and everyone who disagrees is uneducated.

As others have said, both US parties are broadly economically right wing. Both support some involvement of the state, and neither are remotely anything to do with wanting a socialist or communist society. That's laughable.

[quote name='Cornstalks']if the economy collapses, which is what we're talking about in this thread, agriculture is going to become waaay more important than it is now.[/quote]Depends how it collapses - owning the means of production for create farming equipment would be pretty important. Plus I'm confused - I thought this stemmed from JTippets advocating pure capitalism, so I'm not sure why the point now being made is that farmers would be better off in some subsistence based society.

[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1354072591' post='5004812']
We do need to clamp down on them. Not because they are a significant drain on society (they are just a drop in a very large bucket), but because they give others an excuse to accuse all poor people of being lazy. I do think those who are determined to get out of poverty can get out of poverty.[/quote]One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system. And the evidence to me suggests that clamping down never stops the critics - they are often completely unaware as to what systems are already in place, or how hard it already is, but continue to believe the one overblown story in the Daily Mail about someone exploiting the system, and will continue to support on yet more clamping down, and continue to believe all such people are "lazy".

On a related note, should we also clamp down on multinationals using legal tax loopholes?

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1354110934' post='5004958']
One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system.
[/quote]
I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.

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ChaosEngine    5185
[quote name='Promit' timestamp='1354086064' post='5004868']
Well, I'm convinced of one thing: Under no circumstances should any member of GameDev be allowed to wield any position of government or economic authority.
[/quote]

Meh, we couldn't really #$%^ it up more than it already has been.

/plays civilisation

On second thoughts, you're probably right [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1354128097' post='5005024']
[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1354110934' post='5004958']
One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system.
[/quote]
I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.
[/quote]

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes. Just because someone can't currently be hired for a specialized/techinical field doesnt mean they are lazy and unwilling to work. If you worked a minimum wage job in the U.S you would more then likely be on welfare, you would not be able to provide for yourself. Atleast if they have a little bit of support they can try to make a change in their lives or if not in their kids life.

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HostileExpanse    120
[quote name='JTippetts' timestamp='1353998777' post='5004423']
Look at the election maps for the recent presidential election, see who voted Romney and who voted Obama. The blue dots are almost a picture-perfect portrait of the urban areas. The red dots, conversely, outline the rural. The producers. This election, more than any election I have witnessed in the context of this place, struck fear into the hearts of the producers of this country.
[/quote]
[img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img] What a ridiculous premise.

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1354132570' post='5005050']
Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.
[/quote]
That's not at all the argument I was making.

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[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1354135747' post='5005066']
[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1354132570' post='5005050']
Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.
[/quote]
That's not at all the argument I was making.
[/quote]

Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1354139495' post='5005092']
Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.
[/quote]
You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1354132570' post='5005050']
Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.
...
Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.
[/quote]

It's ineffective to assume in an argument that the way it works in New York has much to do with how things work anywhere else. Also, in discussions like these people who say "welfare" (especially in regards to cutting it/making it more difficult to get) tend to mean all government transfers to working-age adults. This includes what the word "welfare" actually refers to (cash transfers, housing subsidies, etc.) and also things like WIC/SNAP (food stamps) or Medicaid. I've yet to see a discussion where that distinction mattered to the argument being made by either party, but maybe this is the one.

And you don't need to be employed to get welfare, depending on where you live and other circumstances of your life.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1354153263' post='5005161']
I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.
...
You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.
[/quote]

Again, depending on where you live. But even in places where it's possible to get government cash benefits without working, surely there's a point where what's being asked of the applicant is unreasonable. Securing welfare benefits is already (again, depending on where you live and other circumstances) quite a bit more than "a little bit hard", not to mention invasive and often dehumanizing. It's not like you walk into a building and then twenty minutes later leave with a check. Do you have a particular point in mind when it's sufficiently difficult that an applicant has earned the benefits?

My preferred argument against "clamping down" on government benefit fraud is that it adds to the cost of those programs while helping no additional people. How much of a premium would you be willing to pay on each dollar of government benefits paid to an honest recipient to deny a dishonest applicant?

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Hodgman    51234
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354040166' post='5004594']
[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.[/quote]Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election ([i]which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas[/i]) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing [i]at[/i] you, not with you. Edited by Hodgman

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Prinz Eugn    4418
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1354159505' post='5005186']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354040166' post='5004594']
[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.[/quote]Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election ([i]which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas[/i]) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing [i]at[/i] you, not with you.
[/quote]

ho hum, this must be the internet.

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Bacterius    13165
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1354159505' post='5005186']
[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354040166' post='5004594']
[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.[/quote]Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election ([i]which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas[/i]) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing [i]at[/i] you, not with you.
[/quote]
This could be said of pretty much any government, though. USA just happens to omnipresent and thus more noticeable. It's the same system basically everywhere in the world, carefully engineered through years of government trial and error to keep citizens under control through endless "debates" and "elections", working hard to make it look as if they are actually making a difference when everything is really decided for them. Yeah, I'm pessimistic. Sorry. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.png[/img]

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[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354049837' post='5004668']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1354047783' post='5004654']
...in a few years, you'll be owned by communist China anyway.[/quote]
Just who do you think owns the debt this topic was originally about?[/quote]That discussion comes a decade or two too late, though. You've been at war with China since at least the 1980s without realizing, and China has won. Unluckily, the same is true for "us" (Europe). I really wish I could point my finger at you and laugh, but it is exactly the same here.
The takeover and extinction has begun, and there is hardly a way to stop it now. In a few years, there will remain hardly any healthy young adults. In a few decades, there will remain none.

10 years ago, hardly anyone here had ever seen a real Chinese (other than the "Chinese" at the Chinese restaurant somewhere downtown, in a land far far away). Now, there is a couple or two living in nearly every street in town. The invaders are in your place, they hold key positions, and they're preparing the takeover. And, governments are only too happy to play into their hands (pushing tax money to China subsidizing solar energy [i]in a country that doesn't have sun[/i], building maglevs "for free" in faraway countries from tax funds, bending immigration laws to fill academic positions and executive positions in the industry, etc.).

The Chinese are diligent, and they have been working hard on getting ownership on anything they could grasp, reducing fertility, and increasing the incidence of obesity and diabetes for three decades. You don't seriously believe that decades of phtalates, lead, mercury, and other stealthy poisons in exported baby toys are purely accidential, do you? You don't assume that exporting high-arsenic high-glucose rice and keeping/importing (e.g. from India) the low-arsenic-low-glucose one for one's self is an incident? You don't believe that the massive increase (during the last decade) of corn starch addition to nearly every food that you can buy in a supermarket was a coincidence? Edited by samoth

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Jacob Jingle    226
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1354159505' post='5005186']
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.
[/quote]
Far-right for us(Americans) is [i]libertarianism...[/i]and last time I looked, we were anything but that. (IMHO, what we're currently doing mirrors our disastrous Progressive Era)

American Progressive:
Progressives want government to have a great deal of power over the economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in today's world. Progressives tend to distrust the free market, support high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties. Edited by Jacob Jingle

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